The messages we send out (Full Version)

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RealGirl4One -> The messages we send out (7/7/2009 7:54:59 AM)

After having been what I consider savaged in another thread here I have to ask what kind of safety message we are sending out to people who do not have the benefit of much knowledge or experience within this "lifestyle".

Specifically I refer to those who would suggest that anyone who is a submissive, a slave or a bottom should be administered A Good Beating by someone they have not agreed to submit to, said action presumably to send the message that they are not entitled to their own viewpoint.

To see such messages, irresponsible in nature, offends me personally and also causes me concern for those new either to this website or the d/s society in general.

It is NOT ACCEPTABLE in my viewpoint to say anything that gives the impression that anyone but a dominant may express themselves without being subject to corporal punishment for the same.

This type of behavior reflects badly on all of us. It is the reason we get bad p.r.

Am I angry, yes, I admit I am angry. I am also hurt that there are people who have such little regard for anyone but themselves.

Finally, I am also disgusted with this type of behavior and make it a personal practice to try to correct this misperception whenever I see it because it is my duty to not allow others to get the wrong impression and thus into possible harm.

Am I alone in this feeling or is anyone else offended by posers who bully and intimidate?



DemonKia -> RE: The messages we send out (7/7/2009 8:27:23 AM)

I'm a huge fan of the First Amendment & the freedom to express ideas, even those I find offensive. I'm also a big fan of ignoring those who express ideas which I think are stupid, deranged, or whatever. I make copious use of the 'Hide' feature on these forums so that I don't subject myself to those who's words have proven to be unpalatable for me:

The button, down there . . .
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lally2 -> RE: The messages we send out (7/7/2009 8:42:34 AM)

im with you on the whole personal responsibility thing, of being careful what we write and how we project this lifestyle when there are new people filing through the whole time, some of them very young and inexperienced in lots of ways, much less this way.  and i can get vehement about it too sometimes, when i feel that whats being written is a poor reflection of what 'we' do. 

but..., that is from my view point and standing, not everyones and we cannot assume to censor other people for their view point and standing.

in the end you can only hope that the new folks will pick and choose what makes sense to them and progress.  afterall, in the end, thats what we all have done and have, eventually, found our way or are finding it.

but usually crazy stuff brings out the hives in most people here and they will almost always pounce on 'crazy' when they smell it and say so, very openly.

the trouble with the whole 'beating into submission' thing is that for many that is a huge fantasy, usually derived from a latent insecurity about themselves and a belief that for it to feel real for them they need to have it dragged out of them.  hopefully most manage to avoid realising this fantasy and can make an educated comparison between what might be fun in fantasy and what wouldnt be fun in reality.

common sense sometimes appears in short supply but in the end you have to give people credit for some level of self preservation and allow them to live their life and make their own mistakes.



RealGirl4One -> RE: The messages we send out (7/7/2009 8:58:44 AM)

I said nothing about anyone being crazy so I'm not sure what you are referring to.

That being said, I know from personal experience of one person, part of a female couple who was coerced and encouraged to make one final desperate act for validation. After over a year of such treatment she finally obliged and killed herself.

Do I think she was crazy? no, I do not, but I think she was browbeat and bullied until she lost track of her own moral compass.

I don't think most people give a damn personally about anyone but themselves and thats just sad.



RealGirl4One -> RE: The messages we send out (7/7/2009 9:01:59 AM)

I personally have no desire to be a part of any community that turns a blind eye to such brutality. If that makes me, as I have been described, A WHINER, then so be it.

There is nothing consensual about a group of bullies and people with overblown egos subjecting innocent people to their brand of amusement.

I am not in the habit of hiding from reality or making excuses for those who do.



RCdc -> RE: The messages we send out (7/7/2009 9:50:24 AM)

The only time this occurs as a problem is when someone assumes that BDSM is any different to life in general.  There are people who do what they do, regardless of whether they are into BDSM or not.  Doesn't reflect on BDSM.  It doesn't reflect on me.  I reflect on me.  Anyone who judges a group by the action of one is pretty shallow IMO.  I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that dominants can speak more than stypes.
 
Yes, you can lead by example.  But that means just being polite and ignoring what you feel is wrong, otherwise you are just giving into bad behaviour, particularly if you respond with anger like you say you are.  That's not really any sign of having control over any given situation but letting others get to your emotions.
 
the.dark.



GreedyTop -> RE: The messages we send out (7/7/2009 9:58:35 AM)

[sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif]



Missokyst -> RE: The messages we send out (7/7/2009 9:59:45 AM)

How odd.  I see far more posts where people tell others "you are not their dominant, you are not their submissive" so why are you behaving that way.  It is a rare occurance and usually from those that appear to be online only that I see someone say a sub should be beaten by a random dom.
Where are you reading this?
As for lifestyle, if more people considered this is life much like any other, perhaps they would start looking at why would they accept things in kink that they would not tolerate in nilla.
bdsm is not magical, special, unique, more honorable or honest than anything else.  As long as people are in the mix you will always have a variety.  Isn't it best to think logically and not from some fantasy viewpoint?
I have to admit I am confused by your post.  No one bullies or intimidates me and they never have.  I do not allow it.  Might be a nice skill to learn.
Kyst



SteelofUtah -> RE: The messages we send out (7/7/2009 10:24:45 AM)

Forgive me in Advance this will most likely get Pedantic but I feel that is the only way to deal with these kinds of posts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealGirl4One

After having been what I consider savaged in another thread here I have to ask what kind of safety message we are sending out to people who do not have the benefit of much knowledge or experience within this "lifestyle".


I do not know the thread you are refering to however if words are capable of "Savaging" someone then far too much credit is given to words and I would be wondering if I was being to thin skined on the subject.

This is not to say that being berated on a Forum board is not rude it is just a far cry from being savaged.

As to the idea of "what kind of safety message we are sending out to people who do not have the benefit of much knowledge or experience within this 'Lifestyle'" well I can say this Most Searches with the words I'm New in them will eventually show someone telling people how to stay safe in this lifestyle. Most of these threads will also so MULTIPLE different points of view and multiple aspects of what Safe actually is and truth be told if I were New to this lifestyle and I read such threads I would think I would be more Confused then when I started.

Safety is a Relative Term. Some People require more Safety Protocol than others and because of this a Whitwash of Safety Concepts do not work because not everyone can agree on what CONSTITUTES Being Safe. Because of this we rely on Common Sence (Anything but common I know).

We are forced to assume that anyone engageing in these activities is a Willing Partisipant. IF they are not it is no longer BDSM and is now a CRIMINAL ACT. If you use this basis to segregate things then you relieve yourself of much of your contention that you must "Save the World" If someone does not report a criminal act then there is little that can be done. Again it falls on the Victim to report the wrong that has been done to them and if they are not willing then NOTHING you do is going to change that they would perfer to be the victim.


quote:

ORIGINAL: RealGirl4One

Specifically I refer to those who would suggest that anyone who is a submissive, a slave or a bottom should be administered A Good Beating by someone they have not agreed to submit to, said action presumably to send the message that they are not entitled to their own viewpoint.


Again I refer you to the Idea that if the person is not a willing partisipant either by design or by decree then it is no longer BDSM which as a General idea requires a Power Transfer otherwise it is infact a Criminal act and in that if a person has been the Victim of a Criminal Act it again falls to THEM not to you to report it.

This being said you have to accept that YOUR vision of BDSM does not match everyone elses. To some what you describe is an atrrosity and anyone who chose to act in that fashion should be Drawn and Quartered, while for other what you described is simply a Tuesday Afternoon before the real stuff starts in the evening.

There is also the sub-catagory of people who TALK like this and Make HUGE purposeful reasons why it is the way it is and yet do not actually practice the concepts. I know MANY people who believe certain things that they themselves may speak adamantly about in which they do not themselves actually do.

It is all about the Canopy of BDSM just as it covers your interests it covers many others that you may not agree with but still can be found under the canopy of BDSM which you choose to call the "Lifestyle"


quote:

ORIGINAL: RealGirl4One

To see such messages, irresponsible in nature, offends me personally and also causes me concern for those new either to this website or the d/s society in general.


I take issue with the term "d/s society" I am not part of a Society really, sure you can make the word fit but when you do so you lose the individuality that BDSM and even D/s relationship have as a whole. Yes some of the definitions of society would fit your argument but as with most definitions eventually they are used to EXCLUDE and not to Include. I do not like the idea that one is NOT a part of a Society because they do not do exactly as the Majority. Because of this I simply state that MY RELATIONSHIP is D/s in Nature rather than saying I am D/s, I also believe that Dominant is something that I AM not something that I DO and because of this I must remember that any definition I find would apply only to myself as far as Zero'd out idea.

As to the Message it is important to remember and understand again that we are FORCED to assume that anyone seeing these messages is an ADULT and should know as an adult self retraint and should review something before they envelope themselfes within it.


quote:

ORIGINAL: RealGirl4One

It is NOT ACCEPTABLE in my viewpoint to say anything that gives the impression that anyone but a dominant may express themselves without being subject to corporal punishment for the same.


The point however is that it is YOUR viewpoint, one that I share as well, however it is not EVERYONE viewpoint. Anyone choosing to get into that kind of relationship has made a choice and as such it should be honored as their choice. I do beileve that in some cases, perhaps not always BDSM related, that Corporal Punishment is perhaps necessary. I believe that some actions can not be redeemed by simple acts and for extreme acts I believe extreme punishment is the proper action.

However when one is given the option to express THEIR viewpoint theirs is just as valid as yours.


quote:

ORIGINAL: RealGirl4One

This type of behavior reflects badly on all of us. It is the reason we get bad p.r.


I do not believe there is a P.R. (Public Relations) division of BDSM, If there was it would be the end of what makes this lifestyle beautiful for me. With P.R. comes Rules and Traditions that not everyone agrees with and not everyone follows. P.R. would denote who IS and who ISN'T in the Lifestyle by a list of actions. If you do this or this you are NOT in the Lifestyle, and if you want to be a respectable member of the lifestyle you must do this and this. Who gets to play God? Who gets to be the Ultimate Decision Maker? You? What if what you do is not okay with me? Am I then Not in the LIfestyle or are you Not because I don't Agree with you?

In the end it comes down to the Semantics of Personal Choice to engage or not engage in certain activities.


quote:

ORIGINAL: RealGirl4One

Am I angry, yes, I admit I am angry. I am also hurt that there are people who have such little regard for anyone but themselves.


This is a Tought one to field. I am Not responsible for anyones actions but my own. Even my slave who defers rights to her actions to me has the ability to STOP doing so if she so chooses. Some slaves will tell you it is not something that they can do, this is because they have chosen to give into the idea of the slave being completely surrendered. Sure it is a beautiful concept but the reality is that Legally there is nothing keeping them there, contract or not, there is also no reason they can't they just would rather not and if the degree of servitude is strong enough they may actually believe they are physically incapable of doing so.

It is not that I have less regard for someone else than I do myself it is just that I know what I am and am not capable of changing and when it comes to the BELIEF systems of others I am truely powerless to physically change it. I can offer points of view but the actualy decision to change the process falls onto them.


quote:

ORIGINAL: RealGirl4One

Finally, I am also disgusted with this type of behavior and make it a personal practice to try to correct this misperception whenever I see it because it is my duty to not allow others to get the wrong impression and thus into possible harm.


I can respect the idea of wanting to keep people from harm. It is a goal of my own. However it is again important to remember that YOUR personal agenda may not match mine and in that case you trying to correct the mispreception that I may value is an attack on what I believe. As you stated in the beginning of this and the thoght of being Savaged, can you not see how your actions to people who BELIEVE that there is nothing wrong with what you are standing up aginst is ALSO savaging in a way?


quote:

ORIGINAL: RealGirl4One

Am I alone in this feeling or is anyone else offended by posers who bully and intimidate?


Now THIS is the root of your post however it was not really substanciated in the above paragraphs.

I do not tollerate Bullies or Intimidators. However my solution is simple. I Block them. I Hide what they say and ignore it away. As thier opinions are important to them and not to me and I have the ability to wipe it off the plane of MY OWN EXISTANCE if I so choose however I think those who want to choose FOR other people and tell them what they can and cannot do and what is right and what is wrong is another form of Intimidation and in a way just as Bully like as what those we sometimes stand against are doing.

This being said I wish you Solace and hope you take to heart what I have said as being as upset as you are at the actions of those you cannot change will only lead to you becomeing Jaded. it is one thing to become disillusioned with this lifestyle however when you become Jaded it taints your entire being and leaves you a Martyr to your own beliefs and we all know what the sad thing about being a Martyr is ...............

Steel



Mercnbeth -> RE: The messages we send out (7/7/2009 10:31:05 AM)

quote:

After having been what I consider savaged in another thread

Representing that you can be "savaged" through words read on a computer screen indicates a disconnect with reality. You may want to consider stepping away from the computer until able to differentiate between cyber and reality.

If you can make such a differentiation, you are benefiting from knowledge; even if it what NOT to do, or how you will NOT relate to people down the road when, or if, you are on the responding side of the forums.

CM has very little resemblance to any "lifestyle". People represent themselves and their involvement in certain activities. Any assignment of "lifestyle" or "community" representation comes from the YOU, the reader.

The "message" being sent out in all cases is very simple. Use what you can and want, discard the rest. Trust me, you can find 'head-bobbers' and get yourself quoted followed by a line full of [sm=applause.gif] just agreeing, or disagreeing with some people. However, wanting that, or worse needing that for confirmation of your legitimacy, is similarly just as bad as representing yourself as "savaged".

Would a disclaimer warning for the site help? "Warning - BDSM activity commonly involves people who are 'sadists'." Forget about the definition or distinction between sub and slave, Master and Dom; those can be argued ad infinitum. However understanding the definition of 'sadist' and appreciating that many here live for opportunities to create discomfort in others; is critical. One last thing, some of the most active and sadistic here identify themselves as 'submissive', or even 'slave'. Don't let the profile identities fool you!

Other than that - have FUN!



GreedyTop -> RE: The messages we send out (7/7/2009 10:35:32 AM)

*adores Steel and Merc*



RCdc -> RE: The messages we send out (7/7/2009 10:36:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah
This is a Tought one to field. I am Not responsible for anyones actions but my own. Even my slave who defers rights to her actions to me has the ability to STOP doing so if she so chooses. Some slaves will tell you it is not something that they can do, this is because they have chosen to give into the idea of the slave being completely surrendered. Sure it is a beautiful concept but the reality is that Legally there is nothing keeping them there, contract or not, there is also no reason they can't they just would rather not and if the degree of servitude is strong enough they may actually believe they are physically incapable of doing so.


I am in two minds about this.  It's true, that no one is responsible for the actions of another.  But we are - as human beings - responsible for knowing that our words and what we do does affect others.  If that wasn't true, then what point is even posting on a forum like this?  Why would there be different words and meanings, other than to give over a certain impression to create feelings and cause reactions of another person.  If you actively laugh at someone, they will either take it good or bad, and if it is bad and that was never the intention, then it is up to you(generic) to actively seek to explain that it wasn't if confronted with calm sincerity.  Otherwise it just all get blown out of proportion.
 
I believe there is a great stance and support of being responsible for oneself - which in turn has somehow created this fallacy of not being responsible for how another might feel.  I find it rather disheartening that people use the whole cruel to be kind mantra to absolve themselves of their responsibility to any situation.  If there is a falling out and somone is hurt by anothers words - BOTH are responsible.  It does take two or more to make an arguement.  That is just life.
 
the.dark.



sirsholly -> RE: The messages we send out (7/7/2009 10:38:41 AM)

quote:

I don't think most people give a damn personally about anyone but themselves and thats just sad.


how sad that you say this. I have found just the opposite to be true.



sirsholly -> RE: The messages we send out (7/7/2009 10:43:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

After having been what I consider savaged in another thread

Representing that you can be "savaged" through words read on a computer screen indicates a disconnect with reality. You may want to consider stepping away from the computer until able to differentiate between cyber and reality.

If you can make such a differentiation, you are benefiting from knowledge; even if it what NOT to do, or how you will NOT relate to people down the road when, or if, you are on the responding side of the forums.

CM has very little resemblance to any "lifestyle". People represent themselves and their involvement in certain activities. Any assignment of "lifestyle" or "community" representation comes from the YOU, the reader.

The "message" being sent out in all cases is very simple. Use what you can and want, discard the rest. Trust me, you can find 'head-bobbers' and get yourself quoted followed by a line full of [sm=applause.gif] just agreeing, or disagreeing with some people. However, wanting that, or worse needing that for confirmation of your legitimacy, is similarly just as bad as representing yourself as "savaged".
very well stated!



SteelofUtah -> RE: The messages we send out (7/7/2009 10:50:32 AM)

Personally I understand and to a degree agree with what you have said.

However, if being responsible for someone else forces me to not be true to myself then I am doing a disservice to myself and if I have done that then my words hold even less meaning that they should.

I believe that some people that other peoples views into far more consideration than is what I consider healthy.

In Grade School we are taught that "Sticks and Stones may break our bones but words can never hurt me" many of us know this is not always true as the words of someone we respect or admire can hurt more that any broken bone. That being said however it falls onto the person who is hurt to evaluate WHY they are hurt and then process that the person who said the words has to be responsible for the validity behind them.

As an Extreme. If I think someone is a Dick and I tell them that they are a Dick, this may hurt their feelings however my responsibility is that I felt it was important to tell them such and that I tell them with purpose. If the design of the words if to hurt then the only responsibility on the person who says them is to be willing to accept that they hurt someone for no other reason than to hurt them.

The person who was hurt has a choice to CARE what was said and attempt to change the image that they give off or to ignore the words and move on changing nothing but how they see the person who said them.

Steel



LadyPact -> RE: The messages we send out (7/7/2009 11:01:03 AM)

OP, I have had your reaction before.  I am going to say that it doesn't happen often.  It's very rare that I think someone has literally tried to state their unsafe conjecture as fact, and tried to convince others of it.  One case in point does stand out.  I saw several posts that he had made that were utter crap.  Not jokes.  Not from his perception.  Not from personal experience.  It was nothing but complete trash that anyone involved in wiitwd could spot as such.  On the threads where I saw this happening, I disagreed with what was stated, gave My counter points, and sent him a private email.  I absolutely admit that I told him My not so favorable opinion of him and his views.  In reply, he said he didn't realize it was coming across that way.  I haven't seen that profile on the forums since then.  Even if I had, it would have ended for Me there.

We're not all going to agree about this thing that we're doing, whatever our thing is.  We're not any different than the rest of the world.  There will always be a whole range of things from one extreme to the other.  Just remember that if you're going to take a stance on unsafe practices, that other people are going to have a different opinion than you are.  Personally, it drives Me nuts when people start preaching SSC.  I'm a RACK person Myself.  It doesn't make Me unsafe, but it probably makes Me a poor choice for a play partner who believes in the concept of one more than the other.

One other thing.  Please do remember that some people attempt to put some humor in their posts.  Sometimes it's funny and sometimes it's not.  (I have great experience at the latter.)  Don't crucify someone if they were attempting to tell a joke that didn't come off well.



GreedyTop -> RE: The messages we send out (7/7/2009 11:03:07 AM)

*adores LadyP*


(and wishes her well in getting across to the OP)



LaTigresse -> RE: The messages we send out (7/7/2009 11:07:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealGirl4One

After having been what I consider savaged in another thread here I have to ask what kind of safety message we are sending out to people who do not have the benefit of much knowledge or experience within this "lifestyle".

Specifically I refer to those who would suggest that anyone who is a submissive, a slave or a bottom should be administered A Good Beating by someone they have not agreed to submit to, said action presumably to send the message that they are not entitled to their own viewpoint.

To see such messages, irresponsible in nature, offends me personally and also causes me concern for those new either to this website or the d/s society in general.

It is NOT ACCEPTABLE in my viewpoint to say anything that gives the impression that anyone but a dominant may express themselves without being subject to corporal punishment for the same.

This type of behavior reflects badly on all of us. It is the reason we get bad p.r.

Am I angry, yes, I admit I am angry. I am also hurt that there are people who have such little regard for anyone but themselves.

Finally, I am also disgusted with this type of behavior and make it a personal practice to try to correct this misperception whenever I see it because it is my duty to not allow others to get the wrong impression and thus into possible harm.

Am I alone in this feeling or is anyone else offended by posers who bully and intimidate?


Nice little version of utopia you've built there, up on your shakily constructed pedestal.

Over ninety percent of the time I am perfectly happy with the message I send out. If, by the response I get, I feel I have been misunderstood that other 10%, I will do my best to clarify.

I do not hold others responsible for my happiness, my actions, my life. I take full responsibility for myself, thank you very much. At this point in time, I am not responsible for anyone else's actions or life, and never will I allow someone to hold me responsible for their happiness.

If ANYone on here reads my words and finds them offensive (aside from the mods), they are free to ignore them.

The fact that I do have my own personal moral code, a code of conduct, a standard to which I hold myself, is hopefully reflected in my words here. That's the key isn't it? You have your own moral code, a manner in which you wish to conduct yourself, a manner in which you wish to be seen. The problem you have is that you want everyone else to abide by your own personal code. Wellllllllllll tooooooo fucking bad! It just ain't gonna happen. Get over it.

The problem with trying to inflict your way on others, is that you end up making yourself look far more judgemental (in a negative light) and petty than you probably ever intended. Trust me on that.

The best way is to cruise along, doing your own thing, being the example you want to see. Other people will see and take note. Someone others can look up to, rather than laugh at and avoid.



cpK69 -> RE: The messages we send out (7/7/2009 11:28:49 AM)

I’ve had my moments of aggravation from watching the feeding frenzies. One time in particular, just after I showed up here, the attack of a 19 yr old who came here saying ‘the wrong thing’; a real eye-opener.

What I’ve learned since then:

It is easy to set some off for an all out flame war; it is just as easy to put the flames out.

Those who do bully will probably never admit it, or if they do; they’ll just say the person they did it to deserved it.

Blocking/ignoring can keep you ‘safe’ from having to deal with such people, but the fact that it is an irritation, indicates there is something to learn from that person, and will keep you from learning that lesson, as well.

The key is to be responsible in choosing to speak; which sometimes, simply means being willing to deal with the consequences of not everyone liking what you have to say.

Kim



subtlebutterfly -> RE: The messages we send out (7/7/2009 1:47:45 PM)

I think that..if you open yourself up to the world, you need to be ready to take what the world tells you. Everybody has the right to express their own opinion, however whether you agree with them or not is another matter but you should respect their opinions and deal with them.



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