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Standing up for yourself - 7/1/2009 10:40:33 AM   
stella41b


Posts: 4258
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline 		Yesterday I received a phone call from my former bank, actually a building society informing me that I am now £250 overdrawn in an unauthorized overdraft and informing me that unless I start making immediate payments into this account they're going to take legal action.

This £250 unauthorized overdraft started out a few months ago as a £30 bank charge for a direct debit for my telephone company which apparently didn't go through. However the telephone company didn't apply for the direct debit because I didn't have any money outstanding on my account and I was in credit. My former bank refused to refund me for the bank charge, so I just switched accounts.

I informed the telephone company of my new account, we set up a direct debit arrangement which has been going without a hitch. Meanwhile my former bank has not only continued to impose a £30 bank charge twice each month for the non-existant direct debits but also other charges for my being overdrawn without authorization.

Yesterday I told this former bank that I have no intention of paying, and rather I would prefer that they refund me for the charges they have made in error. Unwilling to do this, I suggested that they proceed and take legal action.

I have since taken advice, from friends and also a debt management agency who have all advised me to pay this bank, so as 'not to create any problems'.

Which brings me to the point I wish to make here. It's something which I have noticed we seem to have acquired or imported from the States - that we give in to authority or companies or banks even when they are being unreasonable or ridiculous.

To give you another example, I'm living in London where people who work get really upset whenever there is a Tube strike and London Underground workers go on strike. But the same people also week in and week out pay the over-inflated train and Tube fares to commute into work, and they do this without any murmur of protest or dissent.

It would appear that there are some among us who would slit your throat if you dared to take a pound coin from them or dollar unfairly, but if it is a corporation, company, bank or the government then there is hardly a whimper of protest.

Am I the only one who sees this? Has anyone else noticed the same?

Does anyone have any idea why this is so?



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RE: Standing up for yourself - 7/1/2009 10:54:23 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Stella I feel for you…but what makes you think this is an import from the United Sates…lol… Hell our system is and has always been based on yours.

I would try and be sure where the fault was and start from the beginning. I once had a utility company submit my check to the wrong bank. The wrong bank said…he does not have an account here… The gas company then applied service charges for a returned check. Even though they were at fault for submitting to the wrong bank. This caused other problems in my credit report during a time I was trying to obtain credit for a business.

It was tough but after many hours on the phone…threats…written letters.. the gas company finally stood up took responsibility...removed the service charges that had built over the months and straightened out the credit bureau.

Perhaps you should start back with where the initial error was made and go from there.

Good luck


< Message edited by kdsub -- 7/1/2009 11:06:47 AM >

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RE: Standing up for yourself - 7/1/2009 11:15:34 AM   
stella41b


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Stella I feel for you…but what makes you think this is an import from the United Sates…lol… Hell our system is and has always been based on yours.




Thank you for making that point, which being honest could be closer to the truth than the way I have been seeing things.

But whichever way it's this assumption of blind compliance and conformity that such institutions make.

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RE: Standing up for yourself - 7/1/2009 11:21:33 AM   
SteelofUtah


Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline 		The Problem Stella is that if you take it to Legal Action and they find you at fault you could end up paying MUCH more than what they are asking for now.

Also I am curious if you ever went to the bank and told them not to allow any more automatic transfers from that phone company? If you didn't they can easily site neglegence on your side and not only will you pay what they are aksing for now you will pay for the legal costs and so forth.

At least that is how it would work in the states.

Steel

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RE: Standing up for yourself - 7/1/2009 11:23:49 AM   
LaTigresse


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Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Stella I think it comes from feeling over powered. People see these huge corporate entities and think that there is no way they could possibly "win" against them, so they comply and go whimpering off into the night.

Then, you have the reality of time, effort, and often times money, it takes to fight back. Most people do not have one, or all, of those in excess so they see it easier, less stressful, less costly to just take it and try to forget about it.


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RE: Standing up for yourself - 7/1/2009 12:03:56 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
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here you are.   I am too stupid to work an account. 

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RE: Standing up for yourself - 7/1/2009 12:28:51 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		If the source of the problem was the direct debit, then refer to the direct debit guarantee -

The Direct Debit Guarantee:

  • If the amounts to be paid or the payment dates change, the organisation collecting the payment will notify you normally 10 working days in advance of your account being debited or as otherwise agreed


  • If an error is made by the organisation or your bank or building society, you are guaranteed a full and immediate refund from your branch of the amount paid


  • You can cancel a Direct Debit at any time by contacting your bank or building society. We also recommend you notify the organisation concerned.

    Your situation appears to fall under the second bullet point; the bank is in error for failing to notice that the debit being for zero, and that effectively having been debited, this does not constitute a bounced direct debit. Clearly they cannot refund you the zero amount of the dd, but once it is established that this is their error then the consequent charges are not for your account.

    However what I dont understand is why you didnt close that old account? Presumably because the bank would not permit this, what with the charges they alleged you owed? Notwithstanding that, it would have been best practice to stop the any and all direct debits and standing orders on that old account in order to avoid escalating charges, however unfounded they might prove to be.

    E

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    RE: Standing up for yourself - 7/1/2009 4:06:33 PM   
    Politesub53


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    Status: offline     		Stella, did you inform the bank you were closing the account and therefore they should cancel the direct debit ? Why were the telephone company still extracting the direct debit if you had told them of the new account ?

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    RE: Standing up for yourself - 7/1/2009 4:35:44 PM   
    stella41b


    Posts: 4258
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    From: SW London (UK)
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Politesub53

    Stella, did you inform the bank you were closing the account and therefore they should cancel the direct debit ? Why were the telephone company still extracting the direct debit if you had told them of the new account ?


    Yes I did inform the bank that I was losing the account and I also cancelled the direct debits. However the bank imposed the charges twice which made the account overdrawn.

    The telephone company, BT, haven't been applying for the direct debit with the former bank, but with my current bank.

    The bottom line is that my former bank is claiming that BT applied for two direct debits of which both were returned. BT claims that it never sought to request the direct debit payments because both my accounts were in credit and thus they decided not to seek any payments. I discovered this when checking my statements to find that neither of the BT direct debits had gone through but my bank had charged me for both direct debit transactions failing to go through.

    I took this up with the bank but the bank refused to look into the matter, insisting that the charges stand. As a result I cancelled all direct debits and by phone and in writing informed them that I am closing my account. The bank are refusing to close the account until these charges have been paid and have since added further charges and interest. I have tried on a further four occasions to get them to look into it, but each time they have refused.

    For clarification I pay my BT bills by direct debit, one for telephone and internet and another for my cellphone. As far as I'm aware, BT have followed all my instructions and when they tell me they haven't sought the direct debit payments from my former bank account I'm inclined to believe them.

    I'm currently taking legal advice and have yet to decide whether to put this to the Financial Omsbudsman or to have a solicitor deal with the matter.

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    RE: Standing up for yourself - 7/1/2009 4:52:13 PM   
    pahunkboy


    Posts: 33061
    Joined: 2/26/2006
    From: Central Pennsylvania
    Status: offline     		1/2 the charges on mine I had to pay.   The mortgage people even sent a letter saying the payment had to be  certified check.

    --the auto deduct.  Not the best idea.    They pretty much do what they want... a fee can trigger even more fees.

    In 20 years that I known Jenny she never had a bounced check fee.   She uses money orders and wont use a bank.  I noticed with paypal and what not the various fees there. One vendor I considered wanted a postal money order... only postal.    (or paypal + 3%)   The banks pretty much want these fees to accrue.

    While I had no choice but to pay the fees that my mistake cause to my bills- I just blew off the banks charge to me.  It ran close to $600.    The kicker is- that there actually was 3 k in the account.  (somewhere???)

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    RE: Standing up for yourself - 7/1/2009 6:07:50 PM   
    DarkSteven


    Posts: 28072
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: stella41b

    I'm currently taking legal advice and have yet to decide whether to put this to the Financial Omsbudsman or to have a solicitor deal with the matter.


    Neither. 

    Show up outside your bank with a picket sign.  Be prepared with a few sound bites, such as:

    They are charging me £250 because THEY screwed up.  I should be getting an apology instead of these fees.

    They insisted on assessing me fees after I closed the account.

    I've noticed that since the banks went on the dole, they care less about their customers.

    I suspect that they have an additional fee levied for those who dispute.



    The bad publicity will cause things to happen.


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    RE: Standing up for yourself - 7/1/2009 6:27:15 PM   
    barelynangel


    Posts: 6233
    Status: offline     		Actually, if i am understanding what you are saying -- your bank it sounds is committing a fraud it sounds like. If they are allowing a debit to go through that you have specifically informed them is no longer allowed or viable, then what they are doing is fraudelent and are attempting to fraudulently gain money from you by implying the facade of a direct debit that has been canceled.

    I would have your telephone company give you paperwork SHOWING the actual date the new debit started and showing they CANCELED the other debit. If they have this -- your bank is committing fraud especially assessing fees to a non-existant debit. However if your telephone company did not correctly transfer the debit, they are at fault if you can show you were in the undersstanding they would take care on their end the debit transfer from old to new. However if the telephone company can show they never sent a debit through because you were in credit -- its all in the paperwork.

    Get the paperwork and write a letter to the PRESIDENT of the Bank, copy everyone know down to the manager of your branch. Send the paperwork proving the telephone company never debited etc. Places like this LOVE paperwork.

    Also, you can ask your bank to give you proof of where those requests for debits were coming from as you were aware all debits to that account were stopped -- and show them the paperwork from the telephone company. So file a fraudulent use of account report IN WRITING and let the bank figure out how they were allowing somoene to fraudulent send debits through. Also you can file a police report of someone fraudulently using your bank account. Send it to the bank to show that you did not authorize these debits.

    Oh, you can also include in the letter to the President a Bill for services rendered based on all the time you spent having to do their job.

    angel

    < Message edited by barelynangel -- 7/1/2009 6:30:46 PM >

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    RE: Standing up for yourself - 7/2/2009 4:07:26 AM   
    CatdeMedici


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    Status: offline     		My issue is: when did we stop being the customer and start being the enemy?

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    RE: Standing up for yourself - 7/2/2009 6:25:58 AM   
    pahunkboy


    Posts: 33061
    Joined: 2/26/2006
    From: Central Pennsylvania
    Status: offline     		Rather presumptuous of them to PHONE you!      Wasn't that bill part of the run-a-muck debits?   

    Cut your losses and move on.   Writing anyone -- doesn't help. Tho a very brief statement-  "the account is fraudulent. "  Might help.   The banks do this because they CAN.   Many just pay it.

    I actually DID error a few months back at my credit union.    The cost? $15.   I gladly paid it.   They haven't gotten greedy like the banks.  Therefor I have good will- and being that I am treated fairly- I return the same treatment.

    Find a small credit union.

    In PA it is easy to contact the states attorney.  I have done this a few times in 2009.   Even if they are not the cure- my inquiry was noticed in a manner so as to bring resolve to the matter.

    I am sort of impressed as well by at least the PA states attorney.  The company I complained about, I told them the corporate charter for PA should be pulled.   LOL.  I got alot of attention.

    On these too- that office asks for update.  So- I tell them and the other party, "fully resolved".   Thus they are able to close the file.

    On bank fees tho- I doubt anything can be done- tho- drawing from a closed account would be jail- if I did it.   So somebody or something did it.

    With the mortgage company- I asked them to lower the fee.   They knocked off  $25.   So rather then $150, I had to pay them $125.
    So- it was nice of them to do so.  I don't want to be evicted and don't want needed utilities shut off.

    Of course the world is changing- and we soon will have a cashless society and the OP- that sort of thing will be mild as compared to the possibilities of JP Morgan rule.

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    RE: Standing up for yourself - 7/2/2009 6:46:16 AM   
    barelynangel


    Posts: 6233
    Status: offline     		Actually, everytime i have written a letter and had supporting documentation that countered what they SAID and even if they didn't, when they received the letter 1) i usually got a call from the HEAD of the company and then followed by the branch manager of the branch i used, and/or 2) the issue was resolved the way i wanted it to be.  

    Letters are a lost art, people have forgotten what putting something in writing does, especially when you have supporting documentation. 

    I have found with banks, many want to keep their customers and so are willing to work with people.  My bank once indicated i bounced 5 checks and accorded me the fees associated with same -- i called the bank and told them they were mistaken that i had money in there.  They told me no i didn't.  I told them that if the error WAS mine, i told them i couldn't afford their fees -- the guy worked it out where he actually took off all fees BUT the initial fee for the first check.  I told him thanks and i would get back to him and needed him to investigate on his end.  It was found out later the clerk placed my check i had cashed a couple days before into someone elses account.  The bank not only apologized to me in writing, credited me all fees applied, they doubled my interest rate on my savings account for a year.

    I always give a place the opportunity to correct what i deem their errors, i work up the ladder and then if nothing is done or its not resolved to my satisfaction, then i will seek outside sources to help.  I fully believe many company's aren't aware sometimes of what their subordinates or branches do, so i give the company a chance to deal with the issue first.

    I once wrote a letter to the head of DCSF regarding the treatment a friend of mine was getting because of how his EX girlfriend was treating her kids and his attempts to get the kids.  The DCSF worker was a plain bitch and had a personal issue with my friend and it effected her judgment and what was best for the kids.   She had the 1 child who was with my friend taken from him (even though he had custody) because she took the chicks other kids (she had one of the twins he had the other and she had like 5 other kids) and stuck the child HE had had for the year prior into foster care -- traumatizing the kid by literally grabbing him while he was playing in the front yard and his dad was on the porch saying she had a court order for the kids and she didn't care of the baby didn't live with the woman.

    I wrote the letter on Monday, the Head of DCSF called me Tuesday and the baby was back with my friend AND his twin brother by Tuesday night.  The DCSF worker was fired for her using personal feelings to pretty much traumatize two 2 year olds because she couldn't see past her own feelings.

    angel

    < Message edited by barelynangel -- 7/2/2009 6:51:42 AM >

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    RE: Standing up for yourself - 7/2/2009 7:21:14 AM   
    pahunkboy


    Posts: 33061
    Joined: 2/26/2006
    From: Central Pennsylvania
    Status: offline     		Angel-  did you get $35 fee  remitted to you - that the bank paid YOU when they messed up?

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    RE: Standing up for yourself - 7/2/2009 12:16:38 PM   
    DesFIP


    Posts: 25191
    Joined: 11/25/2007
    From: Apple County NY
    Status: offline     		Every time the bank assesses these fees we go in and dispute in and they take it right off. They seem to hope you'll just pay it but if I walk in, they remove them right away. And yes, frequently it is their error.

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    RE: Standing up for yourself - 7/2/2009 1:46:32 PM   
    barelynangel


    Posts: 6233
    Status: offline     		No, however, they DID double my interest rate on my savings account for a year which added up to a lot more than $35.00, and gave me a greater incentive to SAVE more that year lol.

    angel

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    RE: Standing up for yourself - 7/2/2009 2:11:06 PM   
    pahunkboy


    Posts: 33061
    Joined: 2/26/2006
    From: Central Pennsylvania
    Status: offline     		A well written letter to the  right person can do wonders... I agree on that.

    When interest rates went down- I wasn't too interested in savings.  Years ago- I used to plot the account to earn the interest- then when it was like 1% it wasn't worth the effort.  

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    RE: Standing up for yourself - 7/2/2009 2:57:55 PM   
    Phoenixpower


    Posts: 8098
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: stella41b
    Which brings me to the point I wish to make here. It's something which I have noticed we seem to have acquired or imported from the States - that we give in to authority or companies or banks even when they are being unreasonable or ridiculous.

    To give you another example, I'm living in London where people who work get really upset whenever there is a Tube strike and London Underground workers go on strike. But the same people also week in and week out pay the over-inflated train and Tube fares to commute into work, and they do this without any murmur of protest or dissent.

    It would appear that there are some among us who would slit your throat if you dared to take a pound coin from them or dollar unfairly, but if it is a corporation, company, bank or the government then there is hardly a whimper of protest.

    Am I the only one who sees this? Has anyone else noticed the same?

    Does anyone have any idea why this is so?


    OH NO...you aren't the only one who notices that...I learned in my 5 years over here WHY this country is called a nanny state...don't even get me started on that one dearest Stella...



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