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the role of punishment - 6/24/2009 2:35:31 AM

Samm24

Posts: 6
Joined: 6/11/2009
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If I see this correctly I find that there are two major ways in which punishment is used in bdsm:

It is used to,

quote:

correct an undesirable behavior

In this case punishment should not be enjoyed by the sub, because obviously the sub should learn from it and not want to be punished again.

But on the other hand, punishment is seen as part of a roleplay where one (acts that he/she) has done something wrong and therefore has to be punished by the Dom(me). In this case the punishment is often something the sub enjoys like being tied up and spanked.

Probably everyone has his/her own vision about punishment, so I'm wondering how do you use punishment?

I don't really see why people want to use punishments that the sub doesn't enjoy, because that would take the fun out of the play, wouldn't it? Or maybe it is just my vision that it should be fun for both.

Post #: 1

RE: the role of punishment - 6/24/2009 3:50:53 AM

angelikaJ

Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
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I like the term funishment to describe the play aspect.

Someone once defined the difference between discipline and punishment as discipline is a tool to reinforce learning and punishment was for penance.

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(in reply to Samm24)

Post #: 2

RE: the role of punishment - 6/24/2009 5:32:09 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
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I like the term 'funishment' to describe pretend play punishment.

Insofar as real punishment, we don't bother with that.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Samm24)

Post #: 3

RE: the role of punishment - 6/24/2009 5:47:05 AM

CatdeMedici

Posts: 2257
Joined: 10/20/2008
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I don't use punishment for fun---I use it for two things: focus and real punishment---for infractions of house rules, not following schedule, not doing something as instructed, being bratty, working against the better good---

_____________________________

I am the Cat, holder of the whip and chair.

"Let's see-whips, dips, chains, chips, yep sounds like a party to Me!"

(in reply to Samm24)

Post #: 4

RE: the role of punishment - 6/24/2009 5:49:10 AM

ZenDragoness

Posts: 372
Joined: 1/21/2006
From: Berlin/Germany
Status: offline

If the relationship is based on the idea, that one (mostly the dominant person) is helping the other to develop
themself, meaning the dominant person is older, wiser or simply has a plan, i understand the
punishment without joy aspect quite well. Because you can really grow if somebody is rolling a stone in your
way. Especially if somebody has been raised in that way, the system can work.

Although i am not able to play that fun punishment role play, i find it quite endearing.

We use no punishment whatsoever, because it do not work for us.

_____________________________

aka Morgaine289

http://goldenerkern.blogspot.com/

(in reply to Samm24)

Post #: 5

RE: the role of punishment - 6/24/2009 5:52:37 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

We don't have a punishment dynamic. It doesn't correct miscommunication which is the major cause of problems here. And I'm not willing to be punished every time I make a mistake, because I'm human therefore fallible therefore will make mistakes. It's a given and I don't want to spend my life worrying about the next thing I do less than perfectly.

As far as s & m goes, which I think is what you're asking. The reason to use pain the sub doesn't like is because the dominant/sadist enjoys it. And although the sub may not enjoy the sensation he/she may enjoy taking it for the dominant, knowing the dominant is enjoying it. The sub may also be proud of their endurance.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to CatdeMedici)

Post #: 6

RE: the role of punishment - 6/24/2009 6:00:17 AM

MsFlutter

Posts: 1305
Joined: 11/12/2008
From: East Coast
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I'm not a punisher. My mindset is wired more towards fun and a caring delivery. That does not rule out, however, something delivered in a very stern manner - if only to support the tone of the scene. I will not, under any circumstances, pick up an implement when I am angry.

Should a situation arise where punishment would ever be appropriate, two things would happen. The toycase would be locked and there would be an eyeball-to-eyeball rational conversation. That conversation would have one of two possible outcomes: either the affiliation would continue with corrections as appropriate or someone would be shown the door.

< Message edited by MsFlutter -- 6/24/2009 6:02:23 AM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 7

RE: the role of punishment - 6/24/2009 6:26:41 AM

janiebelle

Posts: 332
Joined: 4/29/2009
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In my eyes, discipline is deliberate action intended in a constructive way, any coercion used to build up and reinforce desireable behavior.
Punishment is a deliberate action intended to be corrective, a pennance used to discourage repeated displays of unwanted behavior.
And then, yes, there's the funishment- the delightful pain inflicted just because one or both parties enjoys it.
j

(in reply to MsFlutter)

Post #: 8

RE: the role of punishment - 6/24/2009 6:41:19 AM

Drakontos

Posts: 167
Joined: 5/20/2009
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Master does not engage in play aspects of any kind with zaphira, so any kind of 'punishment' is used solely as a corrective measure.

_____________________________

Drakontos
zaphira

Live with honor; serve with grace and beauty

(in reply to Samm24)

Post #: 9

RE: the role of punishment - 6/24/2009 7:08:11 AM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Samm24

If I see this correctly I find that there are two major ways in which punishment is used in bdsm:

It is used to,

quote:

correct an undesirable behavior

In this case punishment should not be enjoyed by the sub, because obviously the sub should learn from it and not want to be punished again.

But on the other hand, punishment is seen as part of a roleplay where one (acts that he/she) has done something wrong and therefore has to be punished by the Dom(me). In this case the punishment is often something the sub enjoys like being tied up and spanked.

Probably everyone has his/her own vision about punishment, so I'm wondering how do you use punishment?

I don't really see why people want to use punishments that the sub doesn't enjoy, because that would take the fun out of the play, wouldn't it? Or maybe it is just my vision that it should be fun for both.

Since I fairly rarely get into the roleplay of "acting naughty" in order to "get punished, it is easy for me to distinguish between the discipline, the punishment, the "funishment". I use discipline in order to reinforce desired behavior and nullify unwanted behavior. I use punishment for deliberate breaking of the rules, carelessness regarding the dynamic and the rules of the dynamic, repeated infractions. In both cases...discipline and punishment...there is a discussion before and, in some cases, afterwards to determine what is going on beneath the behavior. Sometimes you find other issues lurking, sometimes you find carelessness and sometimes you find complacency. I deal with the issues as I can and discipline and/or punish to correct the carelessness and complacency.

(in reply to Samm24)

Post #: 10

RE: the role of punishment - 6/24/2009 7:34:46 AM

cromaH

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Joined: 6/18/2009
From: Hungary
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I’m afraid you do not understand the essence of femdom. The slave does not enjoy the pain but he is taking delight in humiliation. The torment is an form of expression for the degradation only. It makes the immeasurable distance clear between the slave and his mistress: as long as he suffers agonies for will of his female dome, she enjoy carnal pleasure.

_____________________________

navigare nescesse est vivere non...

(in reply to Samm24)

Post #: 11

RE: the role of punishment - 6/24/2009 9:15:06 AM

daddysprop247

Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
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there is no such thing as "funishment" in this house. like zaphira, "play" in any respect is not something that occurs between us.

punishment is very serious and not something enjoyed by either myself or my Master, and it is something i try very hard to avoid. punishment is the penance i must pay for improper or inappropriate behavior or attitude, the making of repeated mistakes, failure, displeasing my Master in any way.

(in reply to cromaH)

Post #: 12

RE: the role of punishment - 6/24/2009 9:22:23 AM

MsValentine

Posts: 82
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline

P and I don't engage in roleplay so never have roleplay 'punishments'.

In our dynamic I am either happy and pleased with him, which accounts for 99.9% of the time or I am not, due to rare disobedience of some kind,in which case I am not happy and he will be punished for real, painfully, sharply, meaningfully and then when it is over, I forgive him his disobedience and we move on.

I use the cane for punishment which he absolutely hates and fears and it never comes out unless punishment is due.

When I have sadistic sexual fun with him, then I do use other CP implements but often including more sensual build ups and other pain play elements. When we are in this mode we are definitely having fun and I never have to roleplay 'punishment scenarios' as if I want to hurt him I will without needing a reason beyond my own desires.

I know that our relationship differs in its dynamic to many as we live together, are 24/7 and so approach some aspects of bdsm activity differently to those who get to play only when they meet up with their bdsm partner.

(in reply to cromaH)

Post #: 13

RE: the role of punishment - 6/24/2009 9:35:19 AM

daddysprop247

Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline

to Leadership527, and any others who do not do the punishment thing....how are such issues handled?..i.e. mistakes, general slip-ups, poor attitude or behavior, etc.?

(in reply to MsValentine)

Post #: 14

RE: the role of punishment - 6/24/2009 9:47:17 AM

maia09

Posts: 113
Joined: 6/10/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Samm24

If I see this correctly I find that there are two major ways in which punishment is used in bdsm:

It is used to,

quote:

correct an undesirable behavior

In this case punishment should not be enjoyed by the sub, because obviously the sub should learn from it and not want to be punished again.

But on the other hand, punishment is seen as part of a roleplay where one (acts that he/she) has done something wrong and therefore has to be punished by the Dom(me). In this case the punishment is often something the sub enjoys like being tied up and spanked.

Probably everyone has his/her own vision about punishment, so I'm wondering how do you use punishment?

I don't really see why people want to use punishments that the sub doesn't enjoy, because that would take the fun out of the play, wouldn't it? Or maybe it is just my vision that it should be fun for both.

In our relationship, punishment is exactly that. i avoid it as much as i possibly can, not because the physical acts of punishment are so terrible, but i truly hate displeasing my Master. i don't find it fun or amusing to pretend to be in trouble. If i need a good whipping i beg for one. If He chooses to address my plea, then i get one, if not - there will be other times.

_____________________________

She reaches up, not for the apple, but for what causes it to be there.

"I will always be the virgin-prositute, the perverse angel, the two-faced sinister and saintly woman." - Anais Nin

Owned by Chairman

(in reply to Samm24)

Post #: 15

RE: the role of punishment - 6/24/2009 9:55:07 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
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One at a time:

Mistakes: Are just that, mistakes. I can't for the life of me see why I would punish a mistake since no amount of punishment is going to stop mistakes... it's that cursed human thing. If she was making so many mistakes that it was not endurable for me, one would have to question why I would want her as my wife much less my slave.

General slip-ups: see also, mistake

Note, there is a sub-case here of "repeated mistake indicating a lack of attention or concern to my commands." Such behavior is, in my mind, indicative that she doesn't want to belong to me. Given that for me, this is a consensual arrangement, if she doesn't want to belong to me, my response is to release her (which I know is different from your worldview).

Poor attitude: Again, there are multiple types of poor attitude. If we're talking about the "just woke up from a nap, got a nasty command with low blood sugar so responded poorly" kind, I ignore it. She does too. The command gets followed and nobody needed to do anything. If we're talking a general disinclination to follow my lead, brattiness, etc. then we're back to releasing her. I have no interest in playing childish little M/s games with her. Stand and deliver or quit playing around is what I expect of her.

Poor behavior: Direct disobedience is, again, going to get her released. Other types of poor behavior ... gosh... this just doesn't come up often enough for me to have an answer to that. I suppose the answer must be, "I talk to her. She suffers remorse. The poor behavior stops." But this is so infrequent that I don't really need a strategy for it.

Really, for us daddysprop, it seems to be sufficient that I want to own her and she wants to be owned. As long as that's true then why on earth would she get so far away from me? If that's not true, why would I punish her? Some would probably look at the constant specter of being released as punishment in and of itself. I do not. I see it as allowing her to make her choices as a consenting adult.

There is another angle here that might play into it. While I expect to have whatever I want of her -- including things she finds extremely distasteful -- including things that violate her core values -- I do not expect to have those things overnight. I am content to allow time for training to occur. So that means that I don't get everything I want right here, right now. But I kind of grew out of that expectation at the age of 5. Others, however, might well see that in a different light. But I am certain that having a clear training plan that encompasses the time factor is, to a large extent, what mitigates the need for punishment.

Does that help?

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to daddysprop247)

Post #: 16

RE: the role of punishment - 6/24/2009 10:37:35 AM

CallaFirestormBW

Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Samm24

Probably everyone has his/her own vision about punishment, so I'm wondering how do you use punishment?

I don't really see why people want to use punishments that the sub doesn't enjoy, because that would take the fun out of the play, wouldn't it? Or maybe it is just my vision that it should be fun for both.

I don't punish. I may participate in fetish activities like spanking, flogging, etc., but I do those as mutually enjoyable activities for everyone involved.

Correction of inappropriate behaviors, for me, is something I manage through -discipline-. In other words, if someone does something and messes it up, I don't -punish- hir. Punishment, to me, is retributive rather than corrective in nature, and I prefer corrective measures. If an individual is, say, rude, xhe will perhaps have a period where -extreme- protocol and courtesy are required, as well as, maybe, having to write me an essay about courtesy, it's place in authority-exchange relationships, its function in facilitating a smoothly operating home, work, and/or social environment, etc.

In the end, it may not be any more pleasant for the servant than a retributive punishment, and it's certainly a lot more work for me in monitoring the progress of a discipline and making further minor course corrections to get everyone on the right track, but I like the end result, so...

Also, it's important to note that I don't do roleplay, so there isn't really a point, for me, in 'pretend' infractions or punishments. If I want to tie one of my servants up, I choose among the ones who enjoy being tied up and we go for it. Same for any activity. It's not that I have anything against roleplay (I've happily roleplayed, cosplayed, and LARP'd [live-action role play] everything from a Klingon to a medieval queen to a dragon, etc.). I just don't participate in it as part of the authority-transfer relationships I'm involved in.

Dame Calla

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to Samm24)

Post #: 17

RE: the role of punishment - 6/24/2009 10:53:57 AM

antipode

Posts: 1787
Joined: 4/19/2004
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quote:

I don't really see why people want to use punishments that the sub doesn't enjoy,

That's OK. The only thing that is omportant is that they see it. They're not doing it for you, they're doing it for them. You might want to take one step back, and realize there is no need for you to understand everything in life, all you need to do is accept and respect it.

(in reply to angelikaJ)

Post #: 18

RE: the role of punishment - 6/24/2009 10:54:27 AM

CallaFirestormBW

Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

to Leadership527, and any others who do not do the punishment thing....how are such issues handled?..i.e. mistakes, general slip-ups, poor attitude or behavior, etc.?

As I've mentioned other times, I use intense "re-disciplining" in such cases. Discipline is a method of -teaching-, where intense concentration, repetition, and mind-body activities serve to remove inappropriate patterns of behavior and reinforce appropriate patterns. I have to admit that, for many people, discipline is not such a far cry from punishment, but the -purpose- is different, in my mind. Punishing is exacting retribution. Disciplining is re-educating. Also, punishing tends to be a short-term response... once it's over, the issue is settled. Disciplining, on the other hand, tends to be a -process-. It requires careful observation and often, ongoing course adjustments to keep the individual on the right track. As such, it seems to me that it is a lot more demanding on both our parts, and certainly requires more attention on my part than just beating a bottom and going on my way or restricting hir to bread and water for a day or so. On the other hand, disciplining usually teaches -skillsets-, which can then be transferred, intact, into other areas where they might be useful. For example, a discipline for a project left uncompleted may include disciplines in time management, attention to detail, and adaptation to project roadblocks. These will help with the -current- problem -and-, once learned, can be applied in any number of similar situations as a -set- or individually.

Poor attitude, is another kettle of fish, entirely. Sometimes, a poor attitude is situational... depression after a personal crisis, struggling with something and having it affect self-esteem, or having trouble dealing with changes in environment or social circle can often bring about a -temporary- poor attitude. These are pretty easy to resolve by having the person talk with myself or another of the house arbitrators. Usually, we can figure out a way to support the person through whatever the struggle is that is going on, until xhe can get hir feet back under hir. However, some poor attitude is just that... a bad attitude and not wanting to do anything to correct it. Often, I find that these develop because someone wasn't honest, either with us or with hirself, or both, about what hir expectations were about being part of the House. Then, when xhe's been around a while and xhe hasn't managed to rearrange things to suit what xhe -really- expected, xhe starts to get cranky. Attitude issues develop, and, because xhe's not getting whatever it is that truly fulfills hir, there is very little motivation to correct the attitude problems. I don't spend a lot of time on these folks, to be honest. If someone doesn't want to be where they are, it's been my experience that they'll continue to exhibit poor attitude, and will fail to adjust to disciplines intended to improve compliance. If there is an attitude problem that doesn't respond to my intervention and requests for the reason behind the bad behavior, or if I find out, through exploration, that the problem comes from unrequited expectations that, frankly, will never be fulfilled in our household, I'm afraid that I basically end the relationship. It is apparent, to me, that this person with a bad attitude either is never going to be able to find fulfillment with me, or has no interest in really yielding authority to me. In either case, it really isn't 'fixable' -- it's just the result of a poor match, and the best thing one can do is send that person back out to try again.

Dame Calla

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 6/24/2009 10:57:14 AM >

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to daddysprop247)

Post #: 19

RE: the role of punishment - 6/24/2009 12:23:05 PM

daddysprop247

Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

One at a time:

Mistakes: Are just that, mistakes. I can't for the life of me see why I would punish a mistake since no amount of punishment is going to stop mistakes... it's that cursed human thing. If she was making so many mistakes that it was not endurable for me, one would have to question why I would want her as my wife much less my slave.

General slip-ups: see also, mistake

Note, there is a sub-case here of "repeated mistake indicating a lack of attention or concern to my commands." Such behavior is, in my mind, indicative that she doesn't want to belong to me. Given that for me, this is a consensual arrangement, if she doesn't want to belong to me, my response is to release her (which I know is different from your worldview).

Poor attitude: Again, there are multiple types of poor attitude. If we're talking about the "just woke up from a nap, got a nasty command with low blood sugar so responded poorly" kind, I ignore it. She does too. The command gets followed and nobody needed to do anything. If we're talking a general disinclination to follow my lead, brattiness, etc. then we're back to releasing her. I have no interest in playing childish little M/s games with her. Stand and deliver or quit playing around is what I expect of her.

Poor behavior: Direct disobedience is, again, going to get her released. Other types of poor behavior ... gosh... this just doesn't come up often enough for me to have an answer to that. I suppose the answer must be, "I talk to her. She suffers remorse. The poor behavior stops." But this is so infrequent that I don't really need a strategy for it.

Really, for us daddysprop, it seems to be sufficient that I want to own her and she wants to be owned. As long as that's true then why on earth would she get so far away from me? If that's not true, why would I punish her? Some would probably look at the constant specter of being released as punishment in and of itself. I do not. I see it as allowing her to make her choices as a consenting adult.

There is another angle here that might play into it. While I expect to have whatever I want of her -- including things she finds extremely distasteful -- including things that violate her core values -- I do not expect to have those things overnight. I am content to allow time for training to occur. So that means that I don't get everything I want right here, right now. But I kind of grew out of that expectation at the age of 5. Others, however, might well see that in a different light. But I am certain that having a clear training plan that encompasses the time factor is, to a large extent, what mitigates the need for punishment.

Does that help?

Leadership, thank you for your response. it helps me understand somewhat, but not entirely, lol.

above you state basically that if she wants to be owned by you, then why would she get so far away from you (get so far away to merit punishment, i assume is the meaning). does this mean that unless she is perfect, or nearly so (occasional morning grumpiness aside), you would assume that she doesn't truly wish to belong you, and so then your course of action would be to release her? if so that is a bit of a frightening concept for me. it seems like a lifetime of living on pins and needles, because that next mistake or bad day could be your last. either that, or Carol has achieved a level of flawlessness in slavery that i can only dream about, lol.

probably, i'm just missing something here. but in our house, it works something like this: He knows that i will always put forth my best effort, in whatever he expects or demands of me. He knows that i am not the type to willfully disobey (have done this exactly once in 9 years, and still not sure even that incident could be called "willfull"). and of course he knows that i wish to be his and only his with every ounce of my being.

but not being the perfect slave just yet, sometimes i mess up. i overcook his scrambled eggs. i'm late getting ready when we have arrangements to go out. i mistakenly looked up the incorrect directions that time we were going someplace new, and we got lost. there was that time we were casually and light-heartedly chatting about whatever, and i said "duh, Daddy." there was that time i was telling him a story about something someone else had said, and in the telling of the story i repeated a curse word said by the other person. there was the time when i thoughtlessly smiled back at a man who had smiled at me, on a night when Daddy explicitly told me he wanted all of my attention. i've messed up in all of these ways and many more over the years....and when that happens, he punishes me in some manner.

from what i gather from you Leadership, if Carol were to make some of these kinds of mistakes you would take it as a sign she were not dedicated and consider releasing her?

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 20

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