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Homeopathic drugs are safe? - 6/16/2009 9:20:58 PM   
DomKen


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Status: offline 		At least this time it is only destruction of the sense of smell and not death.
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RE: Homeopathic drugs are safe? - 6/17/2009 4:33:05 AM   
MmeGigs


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Status: offline 		While I'd agree that it's foolish to assume that OTC and herbal remedies are "safe", I'm not convinced that Zicam is responsible for this loss of smell thing. Some years ago - 2002, maybe - I had a horrendous cold. I didn't take Zicam or any other cold-preventer. I lost my sense of smell completely for a year, it was about 3 years before it was back to normal. For the last few years now I've used Zicam whenever I'm getting a cold and have experienced no decrease in or effect on my sense of smell.

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RE: Homeopathic drugs are safe? - 6/17/2009 7:19:48 AM   
DomKen


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Status: offline 		The fact is that high concentrations of zinc are harmful and may damage nerve receptors invovled in smell when applied topically. That you have not been injured could be due to any number of mitigating factors however the FDA has compelling evidence and Zicam's manufacturer has settled hundreds of lawsuits on this while lying by claiming they had scientific evidence that the stuff was harmless.

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RE: Homeopathic drugs are safe? - 6/17/2009 7:25:13 AM   
LaTigresse


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Status: offline 		Most anything, if used improperly, can be dangerous. It's just common sense.

Smart people will do their research and use things carefully. Stupid people make assumptions then pay the price.


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RE: Homeopathic drugs are safe? - 6/17/2009 8:07:10 AM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		Whoever said that big money wouldn't move in where the old apothecary jar used to be ? Homeopathic remedies had been a mainstay of life for a very long time, even before money was invented. I submit that big money is the problem.

Big money is also the problem with the "normal" drug comanies, buying influence, putting their own people in at the FDA, USDA and wherever else they can buy their way in. They kill more people than the homeopaths, you just don't hear so much about it because it is not news. Not until the class action lawsuit that is.

I also must concur with the other poster about the sense of smell - it can rebuild. The receptors are very similar to taste buds, and if you even eat something too hot you can destroy a bunch of those, but they grow back.

However in no way do I seek to defend the offending company. The dumkopfs should have pulled the product or at least put a big clear warning on it after the first couple of lawsuits. They are not that smart, I think I'll go buy some of that stuff, take some and say I can't smell. Collect my money and be on my way. Stupid way to do business.

I have no love for that company to say the least. Homeopathic remedies are a great alternative in some cases, and shit like this just brings them under more sctrutiny and tends to give the really big drug companies we all know and love a bit more of an advantage. Don't even get me started on the laetril issue.

The way I see it there may be a rat in the homeopathic crowd. That doesn't change the fact that regular medicine is just about as bad. With their calcium blockers and MAOIs, SSRIs and the incessant overuse of antibiotics, they too have alot for which to answer.

The pot and the kettle are both black. Go figure.

T

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RE: Homeopathic drugs are safe? - 6/17/2009 8:58:02 AM   
SavageFaerie


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Status: offline 		Like with OTC meds homeopathic stuff needs to be researched before you start taking them.
Some have definate effects with prescribed medications or with otc medication.

I would urge you to do your homework.  Most especially with side effects and drug interactions.  Most people think supplements are harmless, and they could be when used alone, but could well have interactions with others meds you are taking.

I recently went though double pneumonia and think that it was directly related to otc allergy meds.I opened a thread in health and safety about it if anyone is interested. Needless to say it was not an enjoyable 6 day stay in the hospital.

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RE: Homeopathic drugs are safe? - 6/17/2009 9:01:51 AM   
DomKen


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Status: offline 		Homeopathy is not old. Homeopathy was invented whole cloth by Hahnemann in the late 18th century. Money was invented several millenia earlier.

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RE: Homeopathic drugs are safe? - 6/17/2009 9:05:33 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SavageFaerie
Like with OTC meds homeopathic stuff needs to be researched before you start taking them.
Some have definate effects with prescribed medications or with otc medication.

Real homeopathic remedies have no interactions with any actual medications. That's because distilled water that's been shaken a few times doesn't become anything other than water.

In this case the manufacturer tried distributing a topical zinc mixture as a homeopathic remedy to avoid having it classified in a manner that would require safety and efficacy testing.

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RE: Homeopathic drugs are safe? - 6/17/2009 9:11:16 AM   
intenze


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Status: offline 		You are spot on Dom Ken. You can thank that moron Senator Orin Hatch for that one.

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RE: Homeopathic drugs are safe? - 6/17/2009 9:11:59 AM   
ShaharThorne


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Status: offline 		This is why I refuse to put anything up my nose. I value my sense of smell, especially if I am cooking. That being said, I use a homeopathic method for treating my migraines. A shot of caffeine and 3 advil, with an hour or so in a dark room. Works wonders for me and I can keep going.

With ALL homeopathic drugs, you have to watch for the side effects as well, just like with regular medicines.

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RE: Homeopathic drugs are safe? - 6/17/2009 9:40:43 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


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Status: offline 		Informationally, while Zicam may include homeopathic medicines, it is NOT, itself, a homeopathic medicine (How do I know this? My companion is a trained homeopath, trained through the British Institute of Homeopathy, where homeopathy has been used for a couple of centuries now). Technically, Zicam and other remedies like it are called bio-salts or cell salts. They're comprised of salts, metals, or other substances -in material form-, and are actually more like herbal remedies than homeopathics.

Homeopathics, properly provided, are safe. However, self-medicating always has risks, and not knowing how to determine side effects, etc., for alternative medicines. In addition, homeopathic treatment can be affected by a number of practices and habits (like coffee-drinking, mint toothpaste, etc.) and not knowing could impact how a homeopathic responds in the body.

Just because something is -natural- doesn't necessarily mean it is safe. After all, white oleander is 'natural' and it is one of the most toxic poisons known for human beings. Same with hemlock. Homeopathy is a -very- effective medical paradigm (regardless of when it was developed -- we're still developing medical practices today, so the fact that it came out of the 1800s is no surprise. How do I know this? I write the protocols by which medical practices are created and tested). However, nothing dealing with human health is a free-for-all, and using things without understanding that any health practice will have an effect on the body is just plain ignorance. It isn't a matter of some particular method being without risk -- it is a matter of understanding what the different risks and benefits of different options -are-, and then acting with personal responsibility to accept the risks and work towards the benefits that seem most effective for oneself (or one's dependents).

Dame Calla


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RE: Homeopathic drugs are safe? - 6/17/2009 11:11:41 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW
Homeopathics, properly provided, are safe. However, self-medicating always has risks, and not knowing how to determine side effects, etc., for alternative medicines. In addition, homeopathic treatment can be affected by a number of practices and habits (like coffee-drinking, mint toothpaste, etc.) and not knowing could impact how a homeopathic responds in the body.

Nothing effects homeopathic remedies. They're water. They have no medicinal effects at all.

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RE: Homeopathic drugs are safe? - 6/17/2009 1:20:37 PM   
stella41b


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Status: offline 		edited because I had originally understood the thread to be 'Homophobic drugs are safe?'

My apologies.

< Message edited by stella41b -- 6/17/2009 1:22:13 PM >

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RE: Homeopathic drugs are safe? - 6/17/2009 1:28:15 PM   
SavageFaerie


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Status: offline 		I wasnt referring to zican directly, I was referring to other homopathic remedies taken by mouth. Some could have interactions.  If your self medication using homopathic meds you need to be risk aware just like any prescribed by.

I do see a regular dr.  If medicare would cover alternative healthcare I would be there in a minute.

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RE: Homeopathic drugs are safe? - 6/17/2009 4:24:01 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW
Homeopathics, properly provided, are safe. However, self-medicating always has risks, and not knowing how to determine side effects, etc., for alternative medicines. In addition, homeopathic treatment can be affected by a number of practices and habits (like coffee-drinking, mint toothpaste, etc.) and not knowing could impact how a homeopathic responds in the body.

Nothing effects homeopathic remedies. They're water. They have no medicinal effects at all.



Sorry, Ken... Maybe it doesn't work. Maybe it's all in mine and the infectious disease specialists' heads... but despite the inability of US medicine to figure out why it works, homeopathics did the job for me. With the MS, the last thing I needed was to lose my leg, but VRSA secondary to neurodermatitis just about put me down. I was prescribed homeopathics at Duke University Medical Center for VRSA. They had the OR scheduled to remove my leg after 24 hours of rampant progression and no response to methacillin, vancomycin, or clindomycin. They had to terminate my antibiotic therapy when the last dose of clindomycin not -only- scarred the vein that it was put into, but caused a nasty case of hives.

My regular doc knew that I was into herbal medicine, and it was in my records that I was open to alternative therapies. They were planning on removing my leg anyway, so after substantial begging on my part, he consulted with Infectious Disease, where they had 2 visiting instructors (one from England and one from India) who were giving a seminar on antibiotic-resistant disease and alternative therapies (which my companion knew about because the lectures were part of her required seminars for her coursework). The instructors came down, explained my options, and we chose homeopathy (because my companion, SR, was already in medical school studying it and it sounded like an excellent case study--the chance of anything working were pretty slim, so I was resigned to losing my leg anyway. Even if it didn't work, she'd be able to write the case up).

Within 6 hours of beginning homeopathic treatment the infection began to noticeably recede from the peak-growth markings made in surgical marker on my leg (someone would come in every 10 minutes and mark where the infection had grown to) -- enough so that they cancelled the OR and gave me another 6 hours to have the infection drop back below my knee joint (It had crossed from below the knee into the synovial fluid and moved above the knee within 5 hours after my admission to the hospital). Within 6 hours of initiating treatment, the infection had dropped from 3" up my thigh to my upper-calf (2 full inches below my knee) and had migrated inwards from completely circling my leg to only 75% of the diameter.

I don't know how it works, I don't know why it works, but I do know that without the ID specialists and the Lachesis Mutus (the remedy they used, and the one we use when I end up with my once-a-year run-in with cellulitis due to ongoing neurodermatitis), I would have lost my leg just below the hip in 1999.


Dame Calla

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Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

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RE: Homeopathic drugs are safe? - 6/17/2009 5:20:22 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW
Homeopathics, properly provided, are safe. However, self-medicating always has risks, and not knowing how to determine side effects, etc., for alternative medicines. In addition, homeopathic treatment can be affected by a number of practices and habits (like coffee-drinking, mint toothpaste, etc.) and not knowing could impact how a homeopathic responds in the body.

Nothing effects homeopathic remedies. They're water. They have no medicinal effects at all.



Sorry, Ken... Maybe it doesn't work. Maybe it's all in mine and the infectious disease specialists' heads... but despite the inability of US medicine to figure out why it works, homeopathics did the job for me. With the MS, the last thing I needed was to lose my leg, but VRSA secondary to neurodermatitis just about put me down. I was prescribed homeopathics at Duke University Medical Center for VRSA. They had the OR scheduled to remove my leg after 24 hours of rampant progression and no response to methacillin, vancomycin, or clindomycin. They had to terminate my antibiotic therapy when the last dose of clindomycin not -only- scarred the vein that it was put into, but caused a nasty case of hives.

My regular doc knew that I was into herbal medicine, and it was in my records that I was open to alternative therapies. They were planning on removing my leg anyway, so after substantial begging on my part, he consulted with Infectious Disease, where they had 2 visiting instructors (one from England and one from India) who were giving a seminar on antibiotic-resistant disease and alternative therapies (which my companion knew about because the lectures were part of her required seminars for her coursework). The instructors came down, explained my options, and we chose homeopathy (because my companion, SR, was already in medical school studying it and it sounded like an excellent case study--the chance of anything working were pretty slim, so I was resigned to losing my leg anyway. Even if it didn't work, she'd be able to write the case up).

Within 6 hours of beginning homeopathic treatment the infection began to noticeably recede from the peak-growth markings made in surgical marker on my leg (someone would come in every 10 minutes and mark where the infection had grown to) -- enough so that they cancelled the OR and gave me another 6 hours to have the infection drop back below my knee joint (It had crossed from below the knee into the synovial fluid and moved above the knee within 5 hours after my admission to the hospital). Within 6 hours of initiating treatment, the infection had dropped from 3" up my thigh to my upper-calf (2 full inches below my knee) and had migrated inwards from completely circling my leg to only 75% of the diameter.

I don't know how it works, I don't know why it works, but I do know that without the ID specialists and the Lachesis Mutus (the remedy they used, and the one we use when I end up with my once-a-year run-in with cellulitis due to ongoing neurodermatitis), I would have lost my leg just below the hip in 1999.


Dame Calla

And here we see the classic instance of assigning effect to cause without evidence. You had been receiving very powerful antibiotics that started working is far more likely than water that had been shaken had any effect.

The snake venom that you supposedly took was water. You didn't specify but the two common dilutions is 6C and 30C. A 6C preperation is 1 part venow to 10^12 parts water. The 30C dilution is best described as requiring giving two billion doses per second to six billion people for 4 billion years to deliver a single molecule of the original material to any patient.

You're at best benefiting from a placebo effect and more than likely denigrating the hard work of the actual doctors who saved your leg.

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RE: Homeopathic drugs are safe? - 6/17/2009 8:41:38 PM   
pahunkboy


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RE: Homeopathic drugs are safe? - 6/17/2009 8:58:20 PM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		DK, while I am not disagreeing completely I think you are falling too far on one side of the fence.

After all aspirin was first extracted from a tree, the bark IIRC. So how much different is it ? Drug companies are also one of the leaders in seeking out and finding new species' of plants and such for use in commercial drugs. Not all of their research is done by geeks in white lab coats with a machine that keeps going "beep". Some of it is indeed in the jungle.

I also don't get how everything is water. This zicam or whatever it is obviously isn't water. Where does that come from ?

T

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RE: Homeopathic drugs are safe? - 6/17/2009 9:07:26 PM   
pahunkboy


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Status: offline 		...figure that 12-31-09 nearly ALL of that stuff becomes a DR written RX!   

IE controlled substance.

CODEX- harmonization rules- per the WTO.      The coming law- is very bad.   A non-compliant country automatically looses a trade dispute per the WTO- if such country does not implement the CODEX.   

The WTO trumps US law....    google it- for more.

Come to think of it- the Baltic Dry Index is down some 90%- so per "world trade"  per haps the rules- are as good as piss in the wind.  

as world trade  has slowed-----------------


< Message edited by pahunkboy -- 6/17/2009 9:12:48 PM >

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RE: Homeopathic drugs are safe? - 6/17/2009 10:08:17 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

DK, while I am not disagreeing completely I think you are falling too far on one side of the fence.

After all aspirin was first extracted from a tree, the bark IIRC. So how much different is it ? Drug companies are also one of the leaders in seeking out and finding new species' of plants and such for use in commercial drugs. Not all of their research is done by geeks in white lab coats with a machine that keeps going "beep". Some of it is indeed in the jungle.

I also don't get how everything is water. This zicam or whatever it is obviously isn't water. Where does that come from ?

T

What homeopaths would call real homeopathic medications are water. The theory is that you place 1 part of the 'drug' into 99 parts water, strike the container, discard all but one part and dilute at 1 to 100 again and again until the desired level of dilution is reached. For instance in a 6C dilution, a very uncommonly strong dilution in homeopathic circles, the entire process is done 6 times. For 30C, the dilution recommended by the creator of the idea and the common dilution used when the poisonous or otherwise lethal stuff is used, the process is done 30 times. The odds against any single does of a 30C dilution having any amount of the original material in it is astronomical. Homeopaths are reduced to claims about water having 'memory.'


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