RE: The importance of communication (Full Version)

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ZenDragoness -> RE: The importance of communication (6/13/2009 10:20:12 PM)

DemonKia,

i have to say that i can not totally agree with you here, because my first rule is to help people who ask me for help or guidance to become as self reliable as possible.

Over the years a lot of people came to me asking for guidance (luckily i had always other people i could ask concerning my own problems) and i learned 2 very important things:

1. Some people do not want their situation solved, they use you to trot again and again the same circle. I always said, that that circles in the earth around something like Stonehenge have been made by these people. So i had to learn if somebody really wanted to grow or not. If not, i stopped to listen.

2. Sometimes people tell you something and you have a clear idea, what the situation is, but you decide to not talk about it. People need for certain more complicated issues their own time to come to a conclusion, to work through it. Telling something to early can hinder the process.

If the two sitautions do not apply. than i think it is ok to talk something through.

I will never forget the afternoon, an old friend of mine who is lesbian came to visit me. She said she had one question and wanted one answer, a yes or no, and after that no further talk about it, but that we resume our normal programme (playing pinball and having something good to eat). I agreed and she said: Can you imagine that into S/M myself? And i said: Yes.

We did not talked about the topic for at least another 2 months. That was many years ago. This year she organized the EasterConference together with 3 other women, a meeting for women who are into S/M with women.




NorthernGent -> RE: The importance of communication (6/14/2009 2:42:41 AM)

The importance of communication......

It's quality that counts not quantity.

Can you really listen? Can you build rapport? Do you understand body language and what that tells you about the conversation and whether the words match the emotions? Can you approach a delicate situation with tact and diplomacy and know when to delve deeper and when to leave it alone? Can you learn from constructive criticism? Do you value that other person's contribution or is it all about you? Do you understand when you're becoming frustrated yourself with the way the conversation is going - can you see the signs such as you've stopped listening and you're giving orders without thought for the other person?

Saying any old bollocks that comes to mind really is the exact opposite of effective communication and it's totally irresponsible.

But yes communication - quality not quantity - is absolutely vital in any relationship.




agirl -> RE: The importance of communication (6/14/2009 3:21:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Since I got to dragging out leadership quotes on a different thread, I happened also across this one which I thought I would share. Here's some food for thought..

Dominants: Consider this the next time you are tempted to tell your submissive what they should and should not say to you.
Submissives: Consider this the next time you are thinking to yourself, "I should just be quiet and cope."

Lesson 2: The day soldiers stop bringing you their problems is the day you have stopped leading them. They have either lost confidence that you can help them or concluded that you do not care. Either case is a failure of leadership.

If this were a litmus test, the majority of CEO's would fail. One, they build so many barriers to upward communication that the very idea of someone lower in the hierarchy looking up to the leader for help is ludicrous. Two, the corporate culture they foster often defines asking for help as weakness or failure, so people cover up their gaps, and the organization suffers accordingly. Real leaders make themselves accessible and available. They show concern for the efforts and challenges faced by underlings-even as they demand high standards. Accordingly, they are more likely to create an environment where problem analysis replaces blame.
Colin Powel, A Leadership Primer.

Food for thought, eh? I know we all know that communication is important. But I had never quite thought of it so clearly. Every time a submissive says to themself, I am not going to bring this problem to my dominant's attention, they are effectively saying, "you are not my dominant." Conversely, every time a leader says, "I don't want to hear your problem." they are admitting that they don't want to lead. When you get down to it, it is not possible to lead someone if you don't can't identify with them - especially their problems which is where they most need the leadership.

OK, I promise to get off this jag now and not post the relevancies between all 18 lessons and BDSM. But gosh, this one just seemed so spot on to god knows how many threads I read here I couldn't resist. Not to say that the other 16 are not incredibly relevant also, but this one comes up all the time in the form of, "Should a slave say [insert statement of unhappiness here] to their master?



I think I see what you are saying here because you linked it to the MANY threads where submissives write HERE about problems, where there do NOT talk to their Owner. They get told over and over *talk to him...communicate* *Why tell strangers, you should be talking to him*.

Of course it doesn't necessarily mean their Owner wouldn't be available , it could very well mean they are stuck in their own thinking that they *can't*.

I don't think you can be an effective leader for everyone.......not because you don't have the attributes but because people have a tendency create their own stumbling blocks. Some people have all the tools at their disposal to do a decent job.......and still refuse to make use of them.

In personal relationships, let's face it, the reasons people look for a *dominant or leader* are so varied and convoluted that simply having good leadership skills will never be enough, on it's own. You have to have someone that recognises them, manifested in the way YOU do it and WANTS them, the way you do it.

agirl








DemonKia -> RE: The importance of communication (6/14/2009 3:34:43 AM)

Howdy, ZenDragoness,

I think you misunderstood what I posted: I was saying nothing about what I do when people bring their problems to me, I was saying that what Leadership527 had posted gives me another way to view the ongoing process of people bringing their problems to me . . . ..




ZenDragoness -> RE: The importance of communication (6/14/2009 4:45:21 AM)

I do not think that i understood you wrong. I understood that you due to the words of leadership527 you saw a certain aspect of people coming to you for guidance or with their problems in another light, that they are looking out for leadership and i wrote about people coming to me for guidance and the lessons i learned concerning that.




CatdeMedici -> RE: The importance of communication (6/14/2009 4:57:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone

quote:

Obviously, to me such things do make sense but based on the feedback I get, if it doesn't make sense to others, there's no point in talking about it that way




I don't know what the point is in posting an OP if you have no interest in alternative views and discussion, other than to lecture and condescend, but I am sure you have your reasons for posting.

In any case it occurs to me that even what little time I spend here may be better spent elsewhere.

Good luck to you.




Ya know, its like going to the library, you read the synopsis, don't blame us if you checked out a bad book--oh and btw good and bad books make room for new ones.[8|]




sblady -> RE: The importance of communication (6/14/2009 7:56:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Dominants: Consider this the next time you are tempted to tell your submissive what they should and should not say to you.
Submissives: Consider this the next time you are thinking to yourself, "I should just be quiet and cope."



I'm sure there are times my Sir cringe or sigh or whatever when I mention certain things.  But, as He's the one that I should communicate with first and foremost, well... [;)]

I don't take every little thing to Him, but the important things, especially relationship issues, I feel no qualms in discussing.  There are times I request feedback from others on how to approach Him as I'm still learning.  However, I'd never ask someone to make a decision for me, especially since they're only getting one side of a story, which may or may not be skewed.




leadership527 -> RE: The importance of communication (6/14/2009 8:46:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZenDragoness
i thought that leadership sounded more than he had a moment of sulking, because the first two posters did not share his point, as you can see later on he recovers quite quickly.


Very astute although not quite accurate. More like a moment of "kicking myself for not remembering this wasn't the right place for such discussions." I saw it as an error on my part and I was backing up (and still am). Although I may yet achieve my purpose just looking at the ripples from this particular pebble-in-the-pond. Just like the last thread I posted, the reactions I've gotten have told me much I hadn't anticipated learning.




RedMagic1 -> RE: The importance of communication (6/14/2009 8:53:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
kicking myself for not remembering this wasn't the right place for such discussions.

The world isn't static.  Maybe this isn't the right place for such discussions yet, and you are changing it.  You long since became an actor here, not an outside observer.  You might as well wield that, since it lies in your hands.




CallaFirestormBW -> RE: The importance of communication (6/14/2009 9:07:21 AM)

First, I want to say that I agree with the OP, and find the original topic to be -very- relevant, especially in cases like mine, where a larger household is both part of our history and part of our future. Specifically relating to larger authority-transfer structures, I think that the issue at hand in a hierarchical structure where one may not always have direct access to the top leadership is whether one believes that the middle leadership actually speaks for the position of the top leadership. As someone who has, at times, been active in a household of over 30 members across echelons, and even across physical distances, I can see a distinct benefit to the use of middle leadership to provide healthy contact and coverage for such a large grouping. Even in groupings a third that size or less, it is not always possible for, say, the Patriarch or Matriarch to be available to manage every crisis that comes up.

In our household, at its peak capacity, there was not always a Keeper around when there was a crisis, and there -certainly- wasn't always a member of the Council. However, diligent observation of those who provided that intermediary support, and regular opportunities to meet with each individual, regardless of hir station in our family, meant that problems were not left to fester.

The other aspect that is often neglected, yet which plays a crucial role in handling leadership in larger groups like poly households or institutions, is the delegation of authority. One crisis of action that may occur in larger households that use an intermediate management system, as ours did, is when the intermediate manager (whether a First Servant, Chatelaine, Head Butler, or Trainer) can see situations, but has no authority to act to resolve such situations. That leaves those who report to that intermediate manager feeling as if they have been thwarted, especially if they don't have access to the senior management (in our case, the Keepers). Our method of dealing with that problem was to provide the intermediate managers with the authority to do whatever they needed to in order to resolve conflicts and settle crises. They would then be required to express, in detail, what occurred and how they handled it. This gave us the opportunity to make recommendations for -future- crises, to improve outcomes (and provide training and leadership to our intermediate staff in the process), and to deal with any inappropriate response on their part that might require correction so that those beneath them did not suffer.

I think that it is only when the organization becomes so large that the top leaders lose touch with the bottom echelon completely, and believe that those 'little people' are the middle management's responsibility, not theirs -- and who also forget that, even if the immediate management of the lower echelons is delegated, they are -still- responsible for monitoring and guiding the middle leadership.

While these ideas are often geared to professional leadership issues, they also apply in household dynamics. In particular, though, where a household becomes larger than a few people and begins to require intermediate leadership in order to assure that someone is always there to deal with situations as they arise, it is true that it is crucial for the layering to not isolate the top leadership from the lowest members.

Dame Calla




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