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Teaching bacteria to count - 5/29/2009 4:26:26 PM   
MsFlutter


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Biomedical engineers teach bacteria to count

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RE: Teaching bacteria to count - 5/29/2009 4:35:46 PM   
PyrotheClown


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Holy fucking chuck noris christ...WOW



science is starting to get insane, soon we'll have armies of bacteria mathematicians growing inside a petry dish, waiting to be adjoined into some sort of super colony super computer.....



only a matter of time now before they give us the ultimate answer



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RE: Teaching bacteria to count - 5/29/2009 4:41:10 PM   
MsFlutter


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imagine the potential (both good and bad) if counting bacteria were teamed with nanotechnology

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RE: Teaching bacteria to count - 5/29/2009 4:44:12 PM   
reydragk


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If you want to read some interesting hard sci-fi that has computers made out of stem-cells, you should check out "Starfish" by Peter Watts.  Awesome book, and my favorite part is the bibliography in the back citing sources in medical/scientific journals for all his ideas.

Also, we already know the ultimate answer.  We just need the ultimate question...

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RE: Teaching bacteria to count - 5/29/2009 4:44:29 PM   
PyrotheClown


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I think they already are, the article mentioned that these were engineered bacteria.
I don't know how you would go about engineering bacteria like that with out the assistance of nanotechnology.

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RE: Teaching bacteria to count - 5/29/2009 4:49:58 PM   
RedMagic1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsFlutter

imagine the potential (both good and bad) if counting bacteria were teamed with nanotechnology

Heh. That's what I do for a living, Ms. F.

Here's a vid of a lecture by perhaps the leader in molecular programming.  It gets pretty dry, but the first 5-10 min are watchable by almost anybody.  The whole thing is 60 min, but only a science grad (or a masochist) would watch it all.

http://dmcc.acm.org/pres/?query=/dmcc///confdata/asplos2008/2008-03-03_09h06


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RE: Teaching bacteria to count - 5/29/2009 5:40:48 PM   
ShaharThorne


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It makes me think of replicators from the Stargate SG-1 series...nasty little buggers!

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RE: Teaching bacteria to count - 5/29/2009 5:42:40 PM   
lizi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: reydragk

If you want to read some interesting hard sci-fi that has computers made out of stem-cells, you should check out "Starfish" by Peter Watts.  Awesome book, and my favorite part is the bibliography in the back citing sources in medical/scientific journals for all his ideas.

Also, we already know the ultimate answer.  We just need the ultimate question...



Excellent book, it is the first in a trilogy. Check out the other two if you haven't read them...

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RE: Teaching bacteria to count - 5/29/2009 6:58:01 PM   
Joseff


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We need to understand the implications here. Bacteria colonies can grow, and they can evolve. Consider a processor that can reproduce, get larger, and possibly even evolve. We may be looking at the birth of the self aware computer. Sentience, life, who knows?

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RE: Teaching bacteria to count - 5/29/2009 7:12:59 PM   
DarkSteven


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The Venus Fly Trap already counts to two.

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RE: Teaching bacteria to count - 5/29/2009 7:19:44 PM   
ShaharThorne


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Isn't the Pine Barrens in Jersey where the mythological Jersey Devil lives at as well?

*stuck between working on a small stock portfolio for her mother and reading the message boards*

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RE: Teaching bacteria to count - 5/29/2009 7:27:36 PM   
MasterG2kTR


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

The Venus Fly Trap already counts to two.


Does it count to two? or is it zero and one??....making it binary!!!

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RE: Teaching bacteria to count - 5/29/2009 8:31:45 PM   
hizgeorgiapeach


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsFlutter

imagine the potential (both good and bad) if counting bacteria were teamed with nanotechnology


Imgaine the potential - both good and bad - if this counting bacteria were intentionally teamed with bio-warfare?

Think about it.  This is essentially bacteria that is Intentionally Designed to Mutate Itself.  Granted, it mutates itself in a Specific Manner, but it's essentially a mutation, nonetheless.  Now couple an intentionally self-mutating bacteria with something particularly nasty to humans - say, oh, Anthrax or Mad Cow, or something like that?  How long, really, will it take - when you consider the lifespan of bacteria and the evolutionary rate involved in such an organism - to have things get out of control, and to find out that such have Mutated themselves into a form of Sentience - at least to the point where it can pick and choose which mutations to cause in itself to increase it's own survival?  (Why ask that?  Because EVERYTHING wants to survive - even if it has to kill to accomplish it.)

< Message edited by hizgeorgiapeach -- 5/29/2009 8:37:37 PM >


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RE: Teaching bacteria to count - 5/29/2009 10:35:54 PM   
Ialdabaoth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsFlutter

Biomedical engineers teach bacteria to count


I thought bacteria already did this? Isn't that essentially what quorum-sensing is, or is this something more elaborate?

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RE: Teaching bacteria to count - 5/29/2009 11:24:57 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth


quote:

ORIGINAL: MsFlutter

Biomedical engineers teach bacteria to count


I thought bacteria already did this? Isn't that essentially what quorum-sensing is, or is this something more elaborate?

Quorum sensing is more like detecting if it has neighbors like or unlike itself. Basically a bacteria surrounded by bacteria just like itself will behave one way and one surrounded by bacteria unlike itself will behave differently.

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RE: Teaching bacteria to count - 5/30/2009 12:06:58 AM   
Ialdabaoth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth


quote:

ORIGINAL: MsFlutter

Biomedical engineers teach bacteria to count


I thought bacteria already did this? Isn't that essentially what quorum-sensing is, or is this something more elaborate?

Quorum sensing is more like detecting if it has neighbors like or unlike itself. Basically a bacteria surrounded by bacteria just like itself will behave one way and one surrounded by bacteria unlike itself will behave differently.


I had understood quorum sensing to be more abstract than that. Bacteria in mode X begin emitting a particular hormone/signaling chemical, which diffuses through their substrate medium at a particular rate. Based on the diffusion rate and the density of bacteria in mode X, the signaling chemical will eventually settle on a particular value - once that value passes a certain threshold, it interacts with proteins in the bacteria to switch on and off various genes, turning it from mode X to mode Y. So it's basically a way to get a bunch of DNA-based Turing machines (the individual bacteria) to operate in parallel, making group decisions based on signalling what their neighbors are doing. Depending on the kind of signalling taking place, and the specifics of the genes involved, you can have multi-modal signaling sets and extremely complex, cascading behavior.

... does all that sound right? Keep in mind, I'm more of a computational mathematics guy than a biology guy, so I may be coming at this from a weird angle.

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RE: Teaching bacteria to count - 5/30/2009 12:14:08 AM   
Ialdabaoth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsFlutter

imagine the potential (both good and bad) if counting bacteria were teamed with nanotechnology


Imgaine the potential - both good and bad - if this counting bacteria were intentionally teamed with bio-warfare?

Think about it.  This is essentially bacteria that is Intentionally Designed to Mutate Itself.  Granted, it mutates itself in a Specific Manner, but it's essentially a mutation, nonetheless.  Now couple an intentionally self-mutating bacteria with something particularly nasty to humans - say, oh, Anthrax or Mad Cow, or something like that?  How long, really, will it take - when you consider the lifespan of bacteria and the evolutionary rate involved in such an organism - to have things get out of control, and to find out that such have Mutated themselves into a form of Sentience - at least to the point where it can pick and choose which mutations to cause in itself to increase it's own survival?  (Why ask that?  Because EVERYTHING wants to survive - even if it has to kill to accomplish it.)


erm.... well, several issues here:

1. Actually, most things intentionally mutate themselves. It's called "sex". It hasn't destroyed the planet yet.

2. In order for bacteria to be sentient, it'd have to have a MASSIVE amount of processing - which you could theoretically get with a large enough biofilm, but it would be *slow*. There's just no way something that small can encode sufficient information to "decide" how to mutate in the way you're thinking about - except in a very rudimentary way, which many organisms do already.

3. Anything we can do, Mother Nature can do better. Infectious organisms have been trying to get around immune systems for billions of years now, and immune systems have been trying to outsmart them the whole time. In fact, the tactics both sides use are a form of deliberate mutation. The genes in your DNA that govern antibody production, for example, deliberately shuffle and mutate your genetic code all the time, to produce the widest possible spectrum of different antibody shapes. This ensures that SOMETHING will catch a foreign invader. It's highly unlikely that we could find a better combination to defeat this process than 3 billion years' worth of evolution has come up with, without a MUCH better understanding of the specifics of protein interaction than we have today. Maybe by 2020, but by then I hope to be immortal and made of titanium and carbon nanotubes.

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RE: Teaching bacteria to count - 5/30/2009 12:25:51 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
I had understood quorum sensing to be more abstract than that. Bacteria in mode X begin emitting a particular hormone/signaling chemical, which diffuses through their substrate medium at a particular rate. Based on the diffusion rate and the density of bacteria in mode X, the signaling chemical will eventually settle on a particular value - once that value passes a certain threshold, it interacts with proteins in the bacteria to switch on and off various genes, turning it from mode X to mode Y. So it's basically a way to get a bunch of DNA-based Turing machines (the individual bacteria) to operate in parallel, making group decisions based on signalling what their neighbors are doing. Depending on the kind of signalling taking place, and the specifics of the genes involved, you can have multi-modal signaling sets and extremely complex, cascading behavior.

... does all that sound right? Keep in mind, I'm more of a computational mathematics guy than a biology guy, so I may be coming at this from a weird angle.

That is essentially correct. However since the signal chemicals specific bacteria detect are only emitted by close relatives the function is that if the bacteria in question is in the middle of a lot of similiar bacteria it does X and if it is in a less dense concentration or is surrounded by unrelated bacteria it does Y.

The usual example is a variety of bioluminescent bacteria, vibrio fischeri. In its planktonic lifestyle it is at a very low concentration and there isn't enough of the signaling chemical released to trigger luminescence. However it also occurs as a symbiote growing in the photophore of the Hawaiin bobtail squid. In that situation the signal chemical is found in very high concentration inside the photophore and the bacteria glow.

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RE: Teaching bacteria to count - 5/30/2009 1:01:25 AM   
MstrPBK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsFlutter
Biomedical engineers teach bacteria to count


Sorry feeling like a smart ass here ...
Are they going to teach them next to omit light and blink like Christmas lights ...
Ducking fast and running as fast as my tooth picks can carry ME!

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RE: Teaching bacteria to count - 5/30/2009 1:02:08 AM   
Ialdabaoth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
That is essentially correct. However since the signal chemicals specific bacteria detect are only emitted by close relatives the function is that if the bacteria in question is in the middle of a lot of similiar bacteria it does X and if it is in a less dense concentration or is surrounded by unrelated bacteria it does Y.

The usual example is a variety of bioluminescent bacteria, vibrio fischeri. In its planktonic lifestyle it is at a very low concentration and there isn't enough of the signaling chemical released to trigger luminescence. However it also occurs as a symbiote growing in the photophore of the Hawaiin bobtail squid. In that situation the signal chemical is found in very high concentration inside the photophore and the bacteria glow.


Hrm. So does it cease to be called 'quorum sensing' when it involves more complex processes, then? Like, for example, the Hox genes in multi-cellular organisms.

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