RE: Football Hooligans

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colouredin -> RE: Football Hooligans (5/30/2009 3:12:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: numuncular football hooliganism barely exists now Wow really? When did that happen then

numuncular -> RE: Football Hooligans (5/30/2009 3:32:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: colouredin quote: ORIGINAL: numuncular football hooliganism barely exists now Wow really? When did that happen then I'm not sure if you're trying to be cute or not by deleting the "in england" part. but its certainly and absolutely true. 25 years ago it used to kick off at a few games every weekend, now there is never trouble at premier league games and very rarely anything around the grounds. I'm puzzled I'm having to even make such an assertion to another person from england, when are where in england do you think its happening?

colouredin -> RE: Football Hooligans (5/30/2009 4:18:15 PM)
I dunno maybe it is just me but I would never go anywhere near a stadium post match (and in wales, ok slightly over the border I know they were english teams)

numuncular -> RE: Football Hooligans (5/30/2009 4:22:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: colouredin I dunno maybe it is just me but I would never go anywhere near a stadium post match (and in wales, ok slightly over the border I know they were english teams) the most dangerous part of being anywhere near a football ground after the match would be crossing the roads near it.

colouredin -> RE: Football Hooligans (5/30/2009 5:10:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: numuncular quote: ORIGINAL: colouredin I dunno maybe it is just me but I would never go anywhere near a stadium post match (and in wales, ok slightly over the border I know they were english teams) the most dangerous part of being anywhere near a football ground after the match would be crossing the roads near it. In your opinion. Having seen fights with football fans I would rather not put myself at risk.

numuncular -> RE: Football Hooligans (5/30/2009 5:35:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: colouredin quote: ORIGINAL: numuncular quote: ORIGINAL: colouredin I dunno maybe it is just me but I would never go anywhere near a stadium post match (and in wales, ok slightly over the border I know they were english teams) the most dangerous part of being anywhere near a football ground after the match would be crossing the roads near it. In your opinion. Having seen fights with football fans I would rather not put myself at risk. in the opinion of someone whos been going to football matches since the mid 80s, when it was often quite rough (I had the shit kicked out of me in leeds once when I was about 14), then trouble found you, now you have to look for it. that you've seen a fight once doesnt really change that.

colouredin -> RE: Football Hooligans (5/31/2009 2:33:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: numuncular in the opinion of someone whos been going to football matches since the mid 80s, when it was often quite rough (I had the shit kicked out of me in leeds once when I was about 14), then trouble found you, now you have to look for it. that you've seen a fight once doesnt really change that. That was one example. To be honest your experience differs from mine that is fine. But I have been around when spontaneous fights start due to football, doesnt even have to be at the stadium it can be in pubs, I have also had a black eye to prove that many punch indiscriminately.

numuncular -> RE: Football Hooligans (5/31/2009 6:38:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: colouredin quote: ORIGINAL: numuncular in the opinion of someone whos been going to football matches since the mid 80s, when it was often quite rough (I had the shit kicked out of me in leeds once when I was about 14), then trouble found you, now you have to look for it. that you've seen a fight once doesnt really change that. That was one example. To be honest your experience differs from mine that is fine. But I have been around when spontaneous fights start due to football, doesnt even have to be at the stadium it can be in pubs, I have also had a black eye to prove that many punch indiscriminately. hooliganism doesnt happen at football stadiums in england ever. people having a fight in a pub is not football hooliganism, even if they are football fans and even if they are arguing about football. there used to be organised mass brawls of dozens to hundreds of people causing mayhem and damage in its wake, thats football hooliganism. and you having a black eye does not prove anything other than one person is a nobhead.

colouredin -> RE: Football Hooligans (5/31/2009 6:49:47 AM)
"The media coverage that these incidents, as well as the Hull/Millwall one last month, expressed shock that this kind of thing still occurs in the English game. Police acted quickly to identify those involved, and clubs have a far stricter policy for fans caught offending these days. Police are encouraged not to wade in with batons flailing, as is often the case on the continent, but to examine CCTV footage and identify suspects, with banning orders and prison sentences dished out. The media also plays its part, publishing photographs of suspected hooligans, whilst the BBC television programme “MacIntyre undercover” saw undercover reporter Donal MacIntrye’s investigation into Chelsea football hooligans lead to a series of arrests, with several of Chelsea’s notorious Head-Hunter crew j" http://soccerlens.com/football-violence-worst-football-riots/23093/ http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/jan/25/fa-cup-hull-millwall-crowd-trouble End of chat

missturbation -> RE: Football Hooligans (5/31/2009 8:25:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin Maybe a possibility is to round up all those that like to fight and put their agression to some use, like solving the problem the armed forces have in recruiting cannon fodder. Giggles. Agreed [:D] quote: exactly, it is just an excuse and has been around sports forever It's not linked to all sports though. It's rare there is any trouble at sports events in the UK except football. quote: It was really one of the scariest things. I have never felt so much tension in the air before. It is scarey hun. quote: I suppose the existence of the 'firms' that meet to battle each other, is at least a contained affair, they stuff each other and not others not interested in scapping, unless of course they are in the wrong place at the wrong time Yep. quote: But if alcohol is the factor that makes things worse, perhaps it when a match is on, be banned for the day, all pubs shut, all off licences shut and searches being made for the stuff I agree with you here. quote: football hooliganism barely exists now (in england that is, its still in full force in italy) compared to when I was a lad, and is literally non existant at football stadiums in england. so sale of alcohol at games would have no effect. This i cannot resist, wheres your proof? You are fucking delusional, naive, head buried in sand if you believe that.

Apocalypso -> RE: Football Hooligans (5/31/2009 10:07:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: numuncular I'm not sure if you're trying to be cute or not by deleting the "in england" part. but its certainly and absolutely true. 25 years ago it used to kick off at a few games every weekend, now there is never trouble at premier league games and very rarely anything around the grounds. I'm puzzled I'm having to even make such an assertion to another person from england, when are where in england do you think its happening? I'd agree with you in part I think. Specifically, there is less hooliganism surrounding premier games then there used to be. Largely due to the high level of policing. Most hooligan activity takes place in the lower leagues. But that happens in England every match day, somewhere in the company. Not generally in the grounds. We're talking about preplanned meetups that very rarely make the press, unless they get out of hand. Which brings me to an interesting ethical dilemma. Assume, for the sake of argument, we're talking about a contained fight between firms, without the dragging in of non hooligans. If that's the case, on what grounds can we argue that people shouldn't have the right to inflict consensual physical harm on each other...

missturbation -> RE: Football Hooligans (5/31/2009 10:21:42 AM)
Oct 2004 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3945109.stm 3982 arrests. Portsmouth - 146 Premier leagueLeeds United - 109 Manchester United - 108 Premier leagueCardiff City - 107 Sunderland - 93 Hull City - 90 Plymouth Argyle - 78 Tottenham Hotspur - 77 Premier leagueNottingham Forest - 73 Premier leagueManchester City - 70 Premier leagueAston Villa - 70 Premier league 2007/08 3842 arrests. http://press.homeoffice.gov.uk/press-releases/football-violence Doesn't look like a huge decrease to me and those are only the arrests made, not to mention the amount that get away, fight in remote locations etc. All the premier teams have their own 'firms' who in the main manage to keep their fighting to secluded prearranged spots. Doesn't mean to say thought that because YOU don't see it happen it doesn't happen. Now please back yourself up and prove that premier league teams don't fight etc.

missturbation -> RE: Football Hooligans (5/31/2009 10:27:16 AM)
quote: hooliganism doesnt happen at football stadiums in england ever. When i get home from work tonight im 100% sure i will be able to find the links to prove you wrong on this one. I personally have witnessed violence at my local teams stadium, so theres one example for ya.

Apocalypso -> RE: Football Hooligans (5/31/2009 10:35:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation Now please back yourself up and prove that premier league teams don't fight etc. Was that addressed to me or is that the autoquote function coming into play? If it's the former, I'm not saying there is no premier league hooliganism, merely that hooliganism has shifted more towards the lower leagues than it used to be.

colouredin -> RE: Football Hooligans (5/31/2009 10:48:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Apocalypso quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation Now please back yourself up and prove that premier league teams don't fight etc. Was that addressed to me or is that the autoquote function coming into play? If it's the former, I'm not saying there is no premier league hooliganism, merely that hooliganism has shifted more towards the lower leagues than it used to be. I think you are probably right, there is far more awareness of it and therefore police presence. But dude up there claiming there was none is simply wrong

Aneirin -> RE: Football Hooligans (5/31/2009 11:57:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Apocalypso quote: ORIGINAL: numuncular I'm not sure if you're trying to be cute or not by deleting the "in england" part. but its certainly and absolutely true. 25 years ago it used to kick off at a few games every weekend, now there is never trouble at premier league games and very rarely anything around the grounds. I'm puzzled I'm having to even make such an assertion to another person from england, when are where in england do you think its happening? I'd agree with you in part I think. Specifically, there is less hooliganism surrounding premier games then there used to be. Largely due to the high level of policing. Most hooligan activity takes place in the lower leagues. But that happens in England every match day, somewhere in the company. Not generally in the grounds. We're talking about preplanned meetups that very rarely make the press, unless they get out of hand. Which brings me to an interesting ethical dilemma. Assume, for the sake of argument, we're talking about a contained fight between firms, without the dragging in of non hooligans. If that's the case, on what grounds can we argue that people shouldn't have the right to inflict consensual physical harm on each other... You have a very good point, as really, it can be paralleled to the BDSM scene, but even before that thought occurred, I have no problems with those that wish to beat each other senseless, if it is they do it away from others not so inclined. The meeting of a bunch of wankers on a waste ground or other with the intention of clubbing the crap out of each other, fine, no problem, just as long as those innocent bystanders, real football fans or general public do not become involved, i.e., they for the interest and continuation of their 'sport', keep others away. But it like BDSM is not for all, it is not for kinky folk to thrust their interest in the face of the nillas, so, the same should apply to the scrappers, do it out of each others way.

Apocalypso -> RE: Football Hooligans (5/31/2009 2:12:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin You have a very good point, as really, it can be paralleled to the BDSM scene, but even before that thought occurred, I have no problems with those that wish to beat each other senseless, if it is they do it away from others not so inclined. The meeting of a bunch of wankers on a waste ground or other with the intention of clubbing the crap out of each other, fine, no problem, just as long as those innocent bystanders, real football fans or general public do not become involved, i.e., they for the interest and continuation of their 'sport', keep others away. But it like BDSM is not for all, it is not for kinky folk to thrust their interest in the face of the nillas, so, the same should apply to the scrappers, do it out of each others way. That's an interesting one. Because I think you could at least argue that the extra policing, specifically the attempts to herd and corral hooligans makes it more likely rather than less that the general public will get involved than if you just left them to it. This is entirely hypothetical, naturally. Apart from anything else, any politican who seriously suggested this approach would be utterly crucified by the tabloids. The other thing I'd question somewhat is the use of the term "real football fans". It's often said, and I think it's a comforting thought. But actually most hooligans are real fans by any reasonable definition- you're talking about people who've been going to the matches since they were kids. And, arguably, hooligans just take the tribalism already present in football one step further.

Aneirin -> RE: Football Hooligans (5/31/2009 3:09:21 PM)
The trouble is with tabloids, is despite what might be a possible good solution, they are always keen to leap on the first instance and make it into something else. Politicians fear the tabloids, and so will not come up with anything creative, anything different, for they know a news hound keen for promotion has no qualms about crucifying anyone who is different, never mind if they agree or not. I n the realty of things, it is the press, the media that control our thought, not the politicians, they, the free press have a responsibility they abuse on a daily basis. They should just report the facts, not make mountains out of mole hills. Interesting thought today, given the European elections are coming up and we are again required to vote, the thought is, no one will bother, as they know nothing of what happens in Brussels. Whose fault is that, that would be the media, for in other Euro countries, the media reports on the day to day happenings in the European parliament, here, it might be a space filler in lieu of no other news to report on.

Politesub53 -> RE: Football Hooligans (5/31/2009 3:29:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: numuncular hooliganism doesnt happen at football stadiums in england ever. people having a fight in a pub is not football hooliganism, even if they are football fans and even if they are arguing about football. there used to be organised mass brawls of dozens to hundreds of people causing mayhem and damage in its wake, thats football hooliganism. So football hooligans organising to meet and have a fight at a pub are not hooligans ? It seems that you are arguing numbers. If that`s the case, the late sixties and seventies had far more problems than the eighties.

missturbation -> RE: Football Hooligans (6/2/2009 6:46:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Apocalypso quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation Now please back yourself up and prove that premier league teams don't fight etc. Was that addressed to me or is that the autoquote function coming into play? If it's the former, I'm not saying there is no premier league hooliganism, merely that hooliganism has shifted more towards the lower leagues than it used to be. No hun it wasn't. It was at the clueless guy who says football violence has never happened at a stadium. quote: Which brings me to an interesting ethical dilemma. Assume, for the sake of argument, we're talking about a contained fight between firms, without the dragging in of non hooligans. If that's the case, on what grounds can we argue that people shouldn't have the right to inflict consensual physical harm on each other... I personally have no objections to the 'firms' arranging secluded fights and kicking the shit out of each other. Providing no innocent bystander is involved or hurt.

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