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RE: Having Boundaries - 5/24/2009 8:52:03 AM

Drakontos

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quote:

So then not having boundaries isn't necessarily a bad thing like some have suggested?.....having no boundaries can be healthy

Having certain boundaries in life, in my thinking, is a necessity. It tells a person when to stop; without them, a person can do some pretty good damage to themselves. Boundaries; whether they be moral, ethical, physical, mental or psychological are what stops a person from crossing a line into self-destruction.

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RE: Having Boundaries - 5/24/2009 8:56:02 AM

missturbation

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I can only answer this from my personal perspective but i'll give it a go lol

quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

Ok, so everyone HAS boundaries, but they don't necessarily come from us on our own(ourselves)?

I personally believe everyone has boundaries yes. Some are our own, some are of those around us.

quote:

Some have posted if they run into someone with no boundaries, it would worry them.

No boundaries would worry me too. I'm a no limits slave which also worries people lol, but it doesn't mean i don't have boundaries. As i said prior to this a boundary for me is for pushing, a limit is not.

quote:

Then some have said their "s" type has the boundaries they impose...

I have no choice but to take on Sir's boundaries. Unless he decides he wants to push them they are my boundaries within the relationship too.

quote:

So it sounds like there are indeed those with no boundaries, and that its even desirable to some "D" types to have a "s" type that doesn't....

Yes there will be those with no boundaries and yes i would assume there are D types who find this desirable. I think also though that they are then confusing boundaries with limits.

quote:

So then not having boundaries isn't necessarily a bad thing like some have suggested?

In my personal opinion having no boundaries would be a bad thing but for some not so. It kind of says to me if i have no boundaries i am not wary, scared, nervous, apprehensive of anything. One of my boundaries is needles, they are not a hard limit but they are something i am scared of and would need encouragement, support etc with. To be scared etc of something for me is healthy and therefore having boundaries is healthy. Hope that made sense.

quote:

.....having no boundaries can be healthy?

In my opinion no. See above.

quote:

Am i understanding this right? inquiring minds wanna KNOW!!

I really don't know. I don't know if my understanding is right never mind yours lol.

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Post #: 42

RE: Having Boundaries - 5/24/2009 9:04:30 AM

breatheasone

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quote:

gypsygrl:There are very few "have to's" in this world. Saying something doesn't make it true. Even lots of people saying something all at once doesn't make it true.
Yes ma'am, i brought my kids up with the saying, "IF you don't stand for something , you will fall for anything"

People sometimes make growth out to be some dramatic process full of struggle, pain, challenges and tests of will. Sometimes struggle and pain happens, but its not necessary for growth and doesn't always produce growth. Indeed, sometimes struggle and pain stunt growth and inhibit development. Can you imagine a horticulturalist who withheld water from his or her plants in the interests of challenging them to grow?
This is so right-on. ALL our experiences cause us to grow, maybe the very painful ones are just easier to remember?

Boundaries, in addition to being the product of healthy development, can also help to produce the conditions that encourage more healthy development. Boundaries help to protect the growth that has already happened and because growth is culmulative they're essential to further growth.
i LOVE this! Its kinda like our boundaries are the atmosphere, and ANYthing can grow withing that HEALTHY "atmosphere" That is so cool!

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Post #: 43

RE: Having Boundaries - 5/24/2009 9:08:41 AM

gypsygrl

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quote:

what (if anything) is the difference between boundaries and limits?

For me, boundaries are not as concrete as limits. They define the perameters of my 'self,' that intangible bundle of non-physical stuff that makes me who I am. There's my body that defines me in physical space, then there's my self that defines me in social space. My boundaries are like a circle around my self that differentiates me from others. So, my Sir is the only one who's allowed in the bathroom when I'm showering or peeing. Other people might be in the house, and want to talk to me, but they wait until I'm done in the bathroom. That's a boundary and, I think most people would agree that its a reasonable one. As adults in the United States, we're allowed to say who may and who may not observe us while we're peeing thought sometimes this implicit right is revoked. One of the reasons prison sucks is because prisoners don't have the right to define their own boundaries.

A limit, as its commonly used within bdsm, is much simpler--it defines what activities we won't engage in. They're no-go areas, though they can be soft or hard, more or less flexible. Typically when you're discussion limits with someone, you're telling them what you won't do with them in the context of bdsm play and what they aren't allowed to do with you while remaining within a consensual exchange.

I suppose there can be some overlap here: one has a limit because of the way they've set their boundaries. So, I'm not good with coercion play because it fucks with my head. Consent is important to me and something of a boundary. One of the things coercion play plays with is the idea of consent. Messing with that boundary destabilizes me. As a consequence, I don't do coersion play. Its a limit.

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RE: Having Boundaries - 5/24/2009 9:13:26 AM

breatheasone

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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation,
I really don't know. I don't know if my understanding is right never mind yours lol.

LMAO, well thats clear as mud! Nawww just funnin with ya!

i do have my own belief about this. The opinion i have seems to mesh with some, and not so much with others. (as expected and, wanted) It is interestiing to hear opinons that oppose my own....it causes me to think, and examine my motives for certian opinions i hold. i LOVE a good scrap,

a good debate/info conversation.

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Post #: 45

RE: Having Boundaries - 5/24/2009 9:22:14 AM

IronBear

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quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

Ok, so everyone HAS boundaries, but they don't necessarily come from us on our own(ourselves)? Some have posted if they run into someone with no boundaries, it would worry them. Then some have said their "s" type has the boundaries they impose...So it sounds like there are indeed those with no boundaries, and that its even desirable to some "D" types to have a "s" type that doesn't.... So then not having boundaries isn't necessarily a bad thing like some have suggested?.....having no boundaries can be healthy? Am i understanding this right? inquiring minds wanna KNOW!!

If a girl comes to me and states she has no boundaries, I take a deep breath and interrogate her in detail and try to ascertain how honest she is being, if I am being wound up or if she is giving what she things the information I want to hear. From a M/s aspect, I know a number of girls who will state honestly that they do not have personal boundaries but their Master has set boundaries for them. In my case, I like to.. nay Need to know a girls limits both hard and soft. I have found in many cases most of her limits mirror mine anyway and others are in areas I have no interest in. Thus I can easily absord them in the boundaries I set based on my own preferences and personal BDSM related boundaries. Thus she can honestly state she has no boundaries because i have set them. This may seem like splitting hairs but with many slaves I know, they want and indeed need to have their Master take this control from them. Not uncommon in a TPE format.

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Post #: 46

RE: Having Boundaries - 5/24/2009 9:28:56 AM

breatheasone

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gypsygrl, thank you so much for that explanation. That really helped to have a better understanding of the two different areas. This really struck home with me...

"I suppose there can be some overlap here: one has a limit because of the way they've set their boundaries. So, I'm not good with coercion play because it fucks with my head. Consent is important to me and something of a boundary. One of the things coercion play plays with is the idea of consent. Messing with that boundary destabilizes me. As a consequence, I don't do coersion play. Its a limit."

After reading this i immediately saw this as an area of concern for me personally. Thanks for sharing that.

< Message edited by breatheasone -- 5/24/2009 9:29:42 AM >

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Post #: 47

RE: Having Bounderies - 5/24/2009 10:36:24 AM

DavanKael

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I haven't read the thread, just the OP.
Boundaries are something that everyone has; they can be healthy or not and that can vary within circumstances.
Boundaries are rules, they're guidelines, guideposts. They let you and others know what's acceptable, what's not.
Davan

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RE: Having Boundaries - 5/24/2009 11:03:44 AM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

what (if anything) is the difference between boundaries and limits?

To me, boundaries are the framework that defines how we choose to live and the directions in which we choose to grow. Limits are the tools we use to direct that living and growing. Boundaries are the theory, and limits are the practice.

Dame Calla

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RE: Having Boundaries - 5/24/2009 11:46:16 AM

breatheasone

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i tend to agree that boundaries are the frame work of who we are. i am not, at all, feeling the "D" type setting someone else's. Don't know how to elaborate much more except to say it just dosen't set right with me. Now this usually means one of two things, either A. i don't like it. or B. i don't understand it. Well i guess in most instances it could be BOTH! LOL If i were to be perfectly frank, i could tell you based on how important to me the subject matter is...Is how hard i would seek to learn about it.

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RE: Having Boundaries - 5/24/2009 12:16:15 PM

Drakontos

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quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

i tend to agree that boundaries are the frame work of who we are. i am not, at all, feeling the "D" type setting someone else's. Don't know how to elaborate much more except to say it just dosen't set right with me. Now this usually means one of two things, either A. i don't like it. or B. i don't understand it. Well i guess in most instances it could be BOTH! LOL If i were to be perfectly frank, i could tell you based on how important to me the subject matter is...Is how hard i would seek to learn about it.

Zaphira is the kind of person who just can not say no to someone. A good example is that if I was to tell her to take a gun, put it to her head, and pull the trigger; she would do it. Not because she's an 'uber' slave, but because she does not have the ability to say "Master, I can't do that, it would hurt me". She is literally incapable of setting her own boundaries when it comes to safety; so I have to. I have to rely on what I know of her past, what I know of her present; take that knowledge and set safe and secure boundaries for her. My purpose is not in having someone who will do anything for me at anytime; but rather having a slave who is healthy, and safe.

All too often, people forget that there really are people who are out there who literally can not make those kind of decisions. It does not mean that they are incapable of running their own lives; only that they do not know HOW to set safe boundaries.

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RE: Having Boundaries - 5/24/2009 12:44:02 PM

SteelofUtah

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From a Purely Recovery based stand point. I will tell you that Boundries are things that help us from getting into situations we cannot handle purely on our own.

Boundries such as not allowing people who use drugs into our home, or not allowing a girl who is drunk into our bed.

You see ba having these boundries you have the ability to stop a bad situation from getting worse or from starting in the first place.

Boundires are Negotiable based on the person and level of established trust. I may have a very restrictive boundry with a newly recovered Heroin Addict that I would not have with a 10 years sober program attending addict. There are still boundries there with both individual but where one the boundries are more vocal the other boundries are still there I just do not have to envoke thm as loudly because the other person understands where I am coming from.

Limits are LIKE boundries but are not the same thing. Boundries can be evaluated and moved without another person ever knowing that they have. There are people who I instinctivly trust and have few Boundires with we can talk and do just about anything as have little issue with. Alcohol was never a trigger for me but there are certain people I cannot drink with. Where I can have a Shot with a good friend I can't even bring myself to think about embibing alcohol with some people the threat for things to get out of control is too great.

When it comes to Limits these are things we want to create a Wall for. These are acts that will lead us to a negative feel instantly. There is no false sence of safty as there at times tends to be with certain people in regard to certain boundries. Limits should be things (In my own demented opinion) that no matter the person are ALWAYS no-no's.

In My opinion Boundries are ALWAYS healthy things, where as I find Limits to often be used as excuses not to explore ones abilities or new experinces. Prime Example nearly every woman I have ever been with had some form of Hangup with Anal sex. I am rather fond of the act. When I got more involved with Lifestyle girls I would often see Anal as a Hard Limit and before a week or two was out they would be having to remove that act from thier hard limits to things that LOVED with the caviat that as long as it was done paitently and with genuine care being taken.

The Point is some people look for a word or phrase to make not doing something okay. Be it Boundry or Limit both are okay to have, I would just hope that at some point someone would look at the real reasons behind taking those things off the table and adress what they are really afraid of.

Steel

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RE: Having Boundaries - 5/24/2009 1:02:08 PM

breatheasone

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quote:

ORIGINAL:SteelofUtah,
I would just hope that at some point someone would look at the real reasons behind taking those things off the table and adress what they are really afraid of.

MAN is that H-A-R-D!!!!
*on a strictly personal note* i'm not good at this at ALL i would almost rather sever a limb than talk about my needs let alone my wants. Having a Man like my Master in my life, has helped me move, and grow in this area.

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Post #: 53

RE: Having Boundaries - 5/24/2009 1:53:39 PM

gypsygrl

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I think that conversation is really important when it comes to boundaries: there's a huge difference between not having any boundaries at all with anyone and not having boundaries in a 24/7 M/s relationship but one could easily imagine an honest self-aware prospective slave insisting she didn't have any boundaries when what she really means is that she doesn't have any boundaries in an established M/s relationship. Only an interrogation would bring out this latent meaning. (I don't know if this is the case. Its just what I thought when I read your post.)

While I've been arguing that boundaries are healthy, in a general sense, I also know that its possible to have a healthy relationship without boundaries. If I were to find myself in a relationship where I have to continually define and defend my boundaries, I would quickly start to wonder about the stability of the relationship and if I trusted my partner. Me and my ex-husband (vanilla relationship) had very few boundaries between us: we shared everything from the beginning, including a tooth brush and, for the most part, it worked and when things went bad, it didn't have to do with a boundary problem. It did take us some time to re-draw our boundaries to reflect the new, separated/divorced reality of the relationship, but over time, we manged that. It took him some time to figure out that when he asked me for a divorce, it meant that I would also stop being his wife.

Sir and I aren't M/s at this point but I don't have a lot of boundaries with him. Experience has taught me that they aren't necessary. We don't share a toothbrush, but we do share a bed and a closet. He has access to most things in my life, including my bank account and I have access to most things in his life. The only thing I retain authority over is my relationship with my kids and he has never saught authority there so it hasn't been an issue.

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RE: Having Bounderies - 5/24/2009 2:27:01 PM

SimplyMichael

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Jeff, you and I don't always see eye to eye however, what follows below is very very true and just really good advice.

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Let me try to clarify then breatheasone.

Here are some situations in which I would see appropriate and healthy insecurity.

a) It's a new relationship. People are still finding their way with each other. There are more questions than answers. The relationship itself may not even last. ALL relationships go through this period and it is not a bad thing. How different to Carol and I were the collar came into play after we'd already been a couple for more than a decade. Honestly, what would we have actually discussed that we didn't already know *laughs*.

b) The relationship has gone through some sort of indirect trauma... Perhaps a lot of business travel from one partner so there has been much separation. Again, it would be natural in such a situation for things to no longer be as solid as they once were.

c) The relationship has been directly harmed by one of the participants -- perhaps some sort of lying or cheating? So now it is insecure and appropriately so. If this were to happen between Carol and I could see how it would result in a renewed focus on things like boundaries (along with a great many other topics).

I would call insecurity in a relationship a bad thing when it happens without reason... strictly becasue of the fears of one or the other participants and a lack of communication to dispel those fears. But in normal life, situations come and go and the relationship changes because of them. Even happy wonderful relationships go through their down times... given long enough... eventually a very down time. A bit of insecurity and perhaps some circling of the wagons to refocus on the team seems like perfectly healthy and appropriate behavior.

I'm also happy to extoll the virtues of fear in very limited quantities. Fear within reason keeps us sharp and attentive. It's a good and healthy survival instinct. It's only when taken to excess that it becomes crippling and produces negative results. So yeah, I fear every day that I will blow it somehow and lose what I have with Carol. Not a lot. But enough not to take it all for granted either.

There is no such thing as a 'negative emotion', only emotions that produce undesireable results in the context in which they play out.

The important point I really wanted to make though is that in my opinion, having boundaries is what sane people do. Whether they need to be discussed within the context of any given relationship is what's open to question. I would assume it is much more pressing to have these discussions in a one week old relationship than a 2 decade old relationship.

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RE: Having Boundaries - 5/24/2009 3:05:07 PM

gypsygrl

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quote:

Its kinda like our boundaries are the atmosphere, and ANYthing can grow withing that HEALTHY "atmosphere" That is so cool!

Or, more precisely perhaps, boundaries are like the ozone layer--they keep the good stuff in and the bad stuff out. The ozone layer protects the atmosphere and keeps it healthy, so stuff suited to that atmosphere can grow, but isn't, itself, the atmosphere. Boundaries are like that. :)

This is all relative of course: one can imagine atmospheres very different from our own that won't support the kind of life we're used to but would support a different kinds of life, even so different that we wouldn't recognize it as such. The boundaries protecting that atmosphere would also be very different, working to keep different sorts of good stuff in and different sorts of bad stuff out.

Thank you for starting such an interesting discussion.

< Message edited by gypsygrl -- 5/24/2009 3:18:47 PM >

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RE: Having Boundaries - 5/24/2009 3:10:22 PM

breatheasone

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quote:

Or, more precisely perhaps, boundaries are like the ozone layer--they keep the good stuff in and the bad stuff out. The ozone layer protects the atmosphere and keeps it healthy, but isn't, itself, the atmosphere. Boundaries are like that. :)

Thank you for starting such an interesting discussion.

Thats what i meant!

As for the discussion .... ABSOLUTELY my pleasure, and has it been fun so far, or what!? i TRULY have learned, some stuff i wanted to know...and some i didn't LOL.

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Post #: 57

RE: Having Boundaries - 5/24/2009 5:39:00 PM

breatheasone

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Drakontos,
Zaphira is the kind of person who just can not say no to someone. A good example is that if I was to tell her to take a gun, put it to her head, and pull the trigger; she would do it. Not because she's an 'uber' slave, but because she does not have the ability to say "Master, I can't do that, it would hurt me". She is literally incapable of setting her own boundaries when it comes to safety; so I have to. I have to rely on what I know of her past, what I know of her present; take that knowledge and set safe and secure boundaries for her. My purpose is not in having someone who will do anything for me at anytime; but rather having a slave who is healthy, and safe.

All too often, people forget that there really are people who are out there who literally can not make those kind of decisions. It does not mean that they are incapable of running their own lives; only that they do not know HOW to set safe boundaries.

i am not sure how to respond, but i would like to say, it was nice of you to take the time to post, thank you.

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Post #: 58

RE: Having Boundaries - 5/24/2009 6:31:23 PM

IrishMist

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quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

It doesn't necessarily mean you have insecurities does it? Can't it be a way of expressing self awareness, or something like that? Any insight would be appreciated.

Not sure. Kind of hard when you don't really define boundaries. Are we talking those moral and ethical lines that we won't cross; or are we talking about the always famous limits?

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RE: Having Boundaries - 5/24/2009 7:06:30 PM

breatheasone

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

It doesn't necessarily mean you have insecurities does it? Can't it be a way of expressing self awareness, or something like that? Any insight would be appreciated.

Not sure. Kind of hard when you don't really define boundaries. Are we talking those moral and ethical lines that we won't cross; or are we talking about the always famous limits?

Its an open discussion...We have been discussing all of that. Care to chime in?

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