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Robert A. Heinlein - 4/30/2009 11:43:51 PM

SnowRanger

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Hello A/all,

Slowly, dimly, I have become aware that posters too this forum seem to be fans of Robert A. Heinlein. Understand, I too am a fan. I keep a copy of The Notebooks of Lazarus Long in my bedside bookcase. I am enough of a fan to think that the movie version of Starship Troopers was a travesty!

Kia refers to him as "The Sainted Bob" and many of you quote him in your signatures. Others quote him in messages. Clearly, those of us in the FemDomme Realm have good taste in Sci-Fi. On the other hand, there must be gaps in my reading because the books that I have read seem pretty vanilla.

Which books of his appeal to your FemDomme interests.

Respectfully,
Mike
SnowRanger

_____________________

A man, a real man, shoots his own dog. Robert A. Heinlein

< Message edited by SnowRanger -- 4/30/2009 11:46:03 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: Robert A. Heinlein - 5/1/2009 1:15:20 AM

DemonKia

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(Nota bene: I expect he spins a little when I say that, but he probably needs the exercise . . . . .

)

Hilda in 'Number of the Beast' was my first taste of the strong women characters Heinlein always liked to write, but her & Deety were just the latest in a long line; Hilda is rather an exemplar of dominant womanhood, to my mind . ....

The mother thing in 'Have Spacesuit . . . ' . . ..

Star in 'Glory Road' . . .. .

Hazel Stone, especially when she pops up at the end of 'Number . . . . '

Ishtar, in 'Time Enough For Love'.

Also the computers, Minerva & Athena . . . .

Oh, Mama Maureen, always.

Margrethe in 'Job . . . ', weirdly enough; in the end Alex follows her to where her belief system takes her, gives up his everything to be with her . . . ..

Those are the ones scrambling to the top of the list in my head.

I've always admired that coolly subtle way that Heinlein women had of workin' their men . . . . Frankly I 'smell' a big admiration of dominant women in most of what Heinlein had to say about gender relations, but it could just be me . . .. ... .

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RE: Robert A. Heinlein - 5/1/2009 3:40:40 AM

CatdeMedici

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Never heard of him.

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RE: Robert A. Heinlein - 5/1/2009 4:04:00 AM

MRandme

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RAH was ahead of his time in many things. His ideas on marriage and sex were considered scandalous when he wrote Stranger in a Strange Land. The idea that you could love more than one person and be married to whoever you damned well pleased was liberating and i part of the reason i am able to be open to the Triad i am in.

There are D/s relationships in the books... off the top of my head, Libby Long was very submissive to Lazarus, both as a male and a female. Libby adored Lazarus and followed his lead in everything. They were not generally labeled as such though.

Just the fact that RAH was a pioneer in seeing the possibilities in relationships if people weren't tied to the concept of one man/ one woman... well he is a hero of mine.

Ironically, he died the same week as my maternal grandfather. Their deaths and the admiration i felt for both are sort of tangled up in my head now. i was at Ft Jackson, waiting to start basic training and mourned RAH alongwithf my Grandpa.

i also did like that his women tended to be strong and capable and very, very smart.

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RE: Robert A. Heinlein - 5/1/2009 4:12:17 AM

angelikaJ

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I think one of the things that set his female characters apart is that in the books that were written in the 50's-early 60s (in his juveniles) the female characters were strong and accomplished. In an era when society encouraged women to be secretaries and housewives and when many women went to college to get their Mrs, his women are engineers or followed other scientific diciplines. In addition he revered what women did that men could not: bear children.

< Message edited by angelikaJ -- 5/1/2009 4:13:36 AM >

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RE: Robert A. Heinlein - 5/1/2009 6:16:53 AM

LadyHibiscus

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Truly, I am not a fan of the Bob... his women are strong, accomplished... and submissive. And "Pneumatic". Sorry, not my cup of tea, I was off him totally by the time I was 18. Great writer, innovative, and I hear he was a great guy in person. Not dissing him, just not loving him.

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RE: Robert A. Heinlein - 5/1/2009 6:38:02 AM

samboct

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I think a lot of people frequenting these boards have a more openly expressed admiration for either fantasy or science fiction than the "nilla" folks, although the two are very different. Given that so much of D/S involves fantasy I don't find this surprising at all. Well, the science fiction aspects perhaps are a bit surprising- its less of a leap to fantasy.

In terms of fantasy- what else would you call Gor and the people that adopted the ideals expressed in the books written by John Norman (not my cup of tea, I must admit.)? Booksellers and critics may conflate fantasy and science fiction, but there are some pretty significant differences between the two.

I've read most of RAH while growing up (his later stuff fell apart IMHO and I quit after Time Enough for Love). In terms of the D/S aspect, I think some of the previous posters have pointed out that RAH had strong female characters that weren't damsels in distress and that they had sexual appetites equal to men- or more. Given the time when these books were set, (no women astronauts or commercial aircraft pilots and not in the military) this was indeed a novel concept and helped establish a basis of the sexual revolution amongst teen age boys at least. (Go Hugh Hefner!) The D/S aspects of RAH's characters were rarely explicit (there were some mentions of spankings)- you could certainly find much more frank writing in other authors.

One comment on Stranger in a Strange Land (which I think probably was his best work.) It's a brilliant allegory- and that's why the ideas on love and sex were considered so scandalous. It's the story of Jesus Christ given a modern twist- what would Jesus look like today? It's a great way to poke holes in the hypocrisy of organized religion.

Sam

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RE: Robert A. Heinlein - 5/1/2009 8:06:50 AM

Andalusite

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I like most of Heinlein's books, but they haven't come across as FemDom-oriented at all to me. Yes, they have strong female characters, but not in an explicit D/s or BDSM relationship, and if anything, they tended to lean a bit submissive toward their S/O.

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RE: Robert A. Heinlein - 5/1/2009 8:23:36 AM

angelikaJ

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

I like most of Heinlein's books, but they haven't come across as FemDom-oriented at all to me. Yes, they have strong female characters, but not in an explicit D/s or BDSM relationship, and if anything, they tended to lean a bit submissive toward their S/O.

The one exception I can think of is the Venerians in Space Cadet.

Hazel Stone and many other of his female characters were modeled after Heinlein's wife Ginny.

(in reply to Andalusite)

Post #: 9

RE: Robert A. Heinlein - 5/1/2009 8:54:08 AM

ShaktiSama

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Bob was great for producing quotable quotes. I agree with LadyH that all of the female characters I've seen in his fiction are submissive, but that doesn't bother me in particular, since I enjoy submissive women myself on occasion. I also don't read his work because I identify with polyamorous orientation, although I will admit that I was much more willing to attempt it and tolerate it after having read his books as a teen.

In later life I find I enjoy his deliberate satire the most. I can take or leave his politics, but what very few people know about Heinlein is that...so could he. A lot of people see only what they DO or DON'T want to see in his work, and ignore its complexity and some of the deliberate contradictions.

Farnham's Freehold, for example, is a book very popular with survivalist groups. Others hate the book and call it "incredibly racist". That always makes me chuckle.

Edit to be more specific in response to the OP: Heinlein does not appeal to me as a female dominant, he appeals to me as a science fiction fan. If I wanted to read specifically female dominant science fiction I'd have to pick up some C.J. Cherryh.

< Message edited by ShaktiSama -- 5/1/2009 8:58:10 AM >

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"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea."
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RE: Robert A. Heinlein - 5/1/2009 9:27:20 AM

Venatrix

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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

[W]hat else would you call Gor . . . in the books written by John Norman . . .?

I call it "crap."

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Post #: 11

RE: Robert A. Heinlein - 5/1/2009 10:57:22 AM

dreamerdreaming

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I've read very little of Heinlein's work, and never heard he had any femdom or D/s leanings.

I much prefer Philip K. Dick. Here is the link to Dick's site, which is apparently run by his children:

http://www.philipkdick.com/

Philip K. Dick wrote the story that the movie Blade Runner came from, and he also wrote Minority Report and A Scanner Darkly, Next, Total Recall and Paycheck which have all been made into movies. He was just a visionary. He had a great imagination.

PS I LOVE the movie Starship Troopers!

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RE: Robert A. Heinlein - 5/1/2009 11:37:38 AM

pinnipedster

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If I were going to think about dominant female characters in Heinlein, I might start with Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, in Number of the Beast. If you take a look at the structure of that book, the first half or so of the story is mostly about the four protagonists deciding which of them is going to be the captain of their venture -- and after each of them has had a crack at it, the others bestow the title on her by acclimation.

I will say that I know at least one female engineer who said she was inspired to enter the field when she first read Have Space Suit, Will Travel, which features a 10-year-old female genius. Up to the time she read it, she'd never really encountered a female character whose primary characteristic was being smart. (Yet she's still a kid -- very believable, I thought. But then, that's one of my favorite books.)

As for Heinlein more generally: The man can tell a story. Even his bad books often have some very good parts to them, and are eminently readable.

I do not, however, recommend him as a source of political philosophy. This isn't because I disagree with him on everything -- in fact, if you read his entire body of work, he presents ideas that are all over the map himself. (His recently published first, previously unpublished novel, For Us, The Living, is set in what is essentially a socialist utopia, which the characters in most of his later books would utterly revile.) However, he is a good source for presenting some unconventional ideas. He himself said that, when he wrote Starship Troopers, he got a lot of flack for seeming to advocate a system in which only military veterans would be allowed to vote -- but he said he wasn't advocating that at all: merely encouraging people to ask the question: "Is universal franchise necessarily the best way of doing things? Should there be some qualification for voting?" It's a question I think most people don't consider; we just accept it as an axiom. And while I still can't think of a better answer myself (at least, not one that I know doesn't reflect my own prejudices -- e.g., only people who know the difference between "your" and "you're"), at least I have actually thought about it.

As far as sheet storytelling goes, I highly recommend such books of his as Double Star and The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, and perhaps Tunnel in the Sky. Well, and a number of others, but Double Star in particular isn't widely enough read.

As far as films go, I thought Starship Troopers, taken on its own, wasn't a bad film, but it utterly failed to capture the feel and principle themes of the book. On the other hand, the film version of The Puppet Masters, despite many changes in the details, did quite a good job in that regard.

< Message edited by pinnipedster -- 5/1/2009 11:39:16 AM >

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RE: Robert A. Heinlein - 5/1/2009 11:43:22 AM

MistressTaboo

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Philip K. Dick wrote the story that the movie Blade Runner came from, and he also wrote Minority Report and A Scanner Darkly, Next, Total Recall and Paycheck which have all been made into movies. He was just a visionary. He had a great imagination.

Hate to burst your bubble but Total Recall that the movie was based on was written by Piers Anthony.

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RE: Robert A. Heinlein - 5/1/2009 11:47:41 AM

MistressTaboo

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I'm a fan of Laurell K Hamilton.

Both her Anita and her Merry series...both characters are poly and Femdomme. She even goes down the BDSM path and explains it fairly decently with her Anita character...about 8-9 books in.

Blood play, hot sex and poly with one Domme and many cute guys...how much better does it get?

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RE: Robert A. Heinlein - 5/1/2009 11:47:46 AM

pinnipedster

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Oh, I have to add something here, since the subject is female domination...

Fellow SF writer Isaac Asimov was friends with Heinlein for many years; during World War II, they worked together at the Philadelphia Navy Yards. Asimov (himself a life-long liberal) was rather distressed that Heinlein, who he said was a staunch liberal when they first met, moved sharply to the right in the post-war years.

In the introduction to For Us, the Living, Spider Robinson attributes this shift to the change in times. In the 1930's, he says, Heinlein, like many others in the Depression years, saw poverty as the main problem threatening humankind and its happiness; hence a lot of his writing from then has a liberal tone. As prosperity returned and we moved into the Cold War years, however, he saw the largest threat as being Communism and the Soviet Union -- and so he and his writing began reflecting that, moving towards conservative and libertarian themes.

Asimov, however, had a simpler explanation. When they first met, Heinlein was married to a woman named Leslyn, who was very liberal. After the war, he divorced her and married Virginia -- who was a conservative. Asimov believed Heinlein's views were very much shaped by these respective women.

I don't know if he's right, but it could certainly be some of both.

(Asimov himself, observing this, resolved never to marry a woman whose views weren't similar to his own -- since he had no intention of changing his views, wouldn't want a woman who would change hers just to suit him, but also wouldn't want political strife in the household. Fortunately, both his wives did hold views like his own.)

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RE: Robert A. Heinlein - 5/1/2009 11:50:40 AM

dreamerdreaming

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressTaboo

Philip K. Dick wrote the story that the movie Blade Runner came from, and he also wrote Minority Report and A Scanner Darkly, Next, Total Recall and Paycheck which have all been made into movies. He was just a visionary. He had a great imagination.

Hate to burst your bubble but Total Recall that the movie was based on was written by Piers Anthony.

Hate to burst yours. Pasted from the Philip K. Dick site:

Film Title:
Total Recall

Based on:
We Can Remember It For You Wholesale

Year Released:
1990

Director:
Paul Verhoeven

Cast and Characters:
Arnold Schwarzenegger as Douglas Quaid
Rachel Ticotin as Melina
Sharon Stone as Lori
Ronny Cox as Vilos Cohaagen
Michael Ironside as Richter
Marshall Bell as George/Kuato
Mel Johnson Jr.as Benny

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RE: Robert A. Heinlein - 5/1/2009 11:59:47 AM

angelikaJ

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Re: Total Recall

The confusion comes from Piers Anthony creating a novelization of the script which was based upon Dick's short story We Can Remember It For You Wholesale.

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RE: Robert A. Heinlein - 5/1/2009 12:05:09 PM

dreamerdreaming

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Roger that, thanks!

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RE: Robert A. Heinlein - 5/1/2009 12:12:35 PM

EvilKitty

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I hadn't thought about this...good question. I liked all his work except "I will fear no evil" which made me wanna hurl.

"Starship Troopers" is one of my faves, pinpointing my own feelings about "earning" citizenship.
I always liked the strong female characters who manipulated their menfolk while letting them retain their feelings of superiority. Probably influenced me more than I knew, considering I'm monogamously married (25 years!), have 1 collared boy (12 years) & play with others.

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