RE: Clinton: US shares blame for Mexican drug wars (Full Version)

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philosophy -> RE: Clinton: US shares blame for Mexican drug wars (3/27/2009 11:12:12 AM)

..i read how you supported suicide for those taking illegal mind altering substances while not arguing the same for those taking legal mind altering substances.

As i said.....nice.



Crush -> RE: Clinton: US shares blame for Mexican drug wars (3/27/2009 12:24:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

it will be easier to implement the 'new society' with a bunch of stoners.



....yup, after all, those stoners back in the 60's barely even noticed Vietnam.......good job none of them got organised or protested anything.......


Pot back then was much less potent than it is today...and most of the stoners didn't do anything...only a vocal minority got off the couch..the rest just followed...



Vendaval -> RE: Clinton: US shares blame for Mexican drug wars (3/27/2009 12:31:05 PM)

How about some alcoholism stats then -


"Alcoholism – Statistics for the USA

General Alcoholism Statistics
  • Professionals estimate that 40% of the population will have an addiction problem at some point in their life (alcohol, drugs, gambling, etc).

  • An alcoholic or addict will significantly impact an average of 4-5 other lives (family, friends, associates, etc.) while under the influence of the disease.

  • The odds of an alcoholic or addict quitting drinking or using alcohol "on their own" without professional help or regular recovery meetings is 1 in 50,000.

  • Alcohol contributes to 100,000 deaths annually.

  • 8.1 million people are alcoholic.

  • Most alcoholics seeking treatment are in the 26-34 age group.

  • 3.1 million Americans -- approximately 1.4% of the population 12 and older -- received treatment for alcoholism and alcohol-related problems in 1997.

  • 3 million Americans over the age of 60 are alcoholics or have serious drinking problems.

  • 10% of the U.S. population’s drinkers drink 50% of all alcohol consumed.

  • 66% of the population consumes alcohol.

  • Alcoholism statistics indicate 13.8 million Americans, more than 7% of the population 18 years and older, have problems with drinking.

  • Alcohol is the third leading cause of preventable death in this country 20% of suicide victims are alcoholic."

http://addiction.lovetoknow.com/wiki/Alcoholism_Statistics



Crush -> RE: Clinton: US shares blame for Mexican drug wars (3/27/2009 12:34:10 PM)

It always amazes me that people want to interfere with the choices of others...subject to their own view and morality.

Freedom of choice, but not *really*. Only the freedoms "*I*" think you should have. To me, it is no different than the Politically Correct Crud...you can say what you want, as long as you don't say .... (NB: I'm in the US...your country's milage may vary...) B.S. If speech is free, then speech is free.

Personally, I don't smoke. I don't do drugs. And I drink maybe two-three beers or the equivalent a week. BUT if someone wants to kill their liver, so be it. They should be allowed to do so, as long as they don't do it when it interferes with the rights of others...say driving.

These are typically "long term deleterious effect" items (tobacco, pot, alcohol) though crack and others are not. When will we let people be responsible for their choices? And let them work to win their own version of the Darwin Award?

And yes, before you say it...it would apply to me as well.

So, are people responsible for themselves and their actions or not? That is the fundamental question.



kdsub -> RE: Clinton: US shares blame for Mexican drug wars (3/27/2009 7:52:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

How about some alcoholism stats then -


"Alcoholism – Statistics for the USA

General Alcoholism Statistics
  • Professionals estimate that 40% of the population will have an addiction problem at some point in their life (alcohol, drugs, gambling, etc).

  • An alcoholic or addict will significantly impact an average of 4-5 other lives (family, friends, associates, etc.) while under the influence of the disease.

  • The odds of an alcoholic or addict quitting drinking or using alcohol "on their own" without professional help or regular recovery meetings is 1 in 50,000.

  • Alcohol contributes to 100,000 deaths annually.

  • 8.1 million people are alcoholic.

  • Most alcoholics seeking treatment are in the 26-34 age group.

  • 3.1 million Americans -- approximately 1.4% of the population 12 and older -- received treatment for alcoholism and alcohol-related problems in 1997.

  • 3 million Americans over the age of 60 are alcoholics or have serious drinking problems.

  • 10% of the U.S. population’s drinkers drink 50% of all alcohol consumed.

  • 66% of the population consumes alcohol.

  • Alcoholism statistics indicate 13.8 million Americans, more than 7% of the population 18 years and older, have problems with drinking.

  • Alcohol is the third leading cause of preventable death in this country 20% of suicide victims are alcoholic."


http://addiction.lovetoknow.com/wiki/Alcoholism_Statistics

Bad are they not...hey lets be smart and legalize drugs then we can triple the statistics or even more...yea good thinking.

Remember most of the injury from drugs is not from battles with drug lords…They are from the physical destruction of the body AND the destruction of families.

You see it makes no difference how bad legal drugs are… it will be even worse if we legalize more.

I just don’t see why that is so hard for some to understand.

Butch



Vendaval -> RE: Clinton: US shares blame for Mexican drug wars (3/27/2009 8:01:43 PM)

By your previous argument, shouldn't all alcoholics committ suicide as well?
Or how about just getting rid of the 40% that have one type of addiction or other?



kdsub -> RE: Clinton: US shares blame for Mexican drug wars (3/27/2009 8:08:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

By your previous argument, shouldn't all alcoholics committ suicide as well?
Or how about just getting rid of the 40% that have one type of addiction or other?


Is that your argument against my reasoning…pretty poor I’m afraid...Can't you understand sarcasm…you should… you use it all the time.

Butch



rulemylife -> RE: Clinton: US shares blame for Mexican drug wars (3/27/2009 8:24:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Maybe it's time for weak people to get a backbone...if you can't live without an altered reality then stick your head in a bucket of water and save your family some grief.

Butch


Never said I smoked or did any illegal drugs.

(at least not anymore [:D])

Which doesn't explain the difference why we can go to a bar and pound down tequila all night while Michael Phelps is getting crucified for taking a few hits off a bong.



rulemylife -> RE: Clinton: US shares blame for Mexican drug wars (3/27/2009 8:32:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I knew someone would bring that up...just surprised you would...you forgot cigarettes.

Too late to make tea…coffee…alcohol illegal… I hope they do make cigarettes illegal and I think they will.

How many ways do we need to kill ourselves.. I know lets make all drugs legal
I could go on…but you get the idea.. I HOPE.

Butch


Yes, I do get the idea.

You are perfectly OK with your drug of choice but have problems with any other.



rulemylife -> RE: Clinton: US shares blame for Mexican drug wars (3/27/2009 8:42:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

You see it makes no difference how bad legal drugs are… it will be even worse if we legalize more.

I just don’t see why that is so hard for some to understand.

Butch


By the same argument, why should some be legal while others are not?



Vendaval -> RE: Clinton: US shares blame for Mexican drug wars (3/27/2009 8:58:16 PM)

I take exception to your position in Post #16 of this thread.
Substance abuse and addiction has long been part of the human condition.
Having addicts committ suicide is pointless.
 

"Maybe it's time for weak people to get a backbone...if you can't live without an altered reality then stick your head in a bucket of water and save your family some grief.

Butch "





kdsub -> RE: Clinton: US shares blame for Mexican drug wars (3/27/2009 9:53:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

I take exception to your position in Post #16 of this thread.
Substance abuse and addiction has long been part of the human condition.
Having addicts committ suicide is pointless.
 

"Maybe it's time for weak people to get a backbone...if you can't live without an altered reality then stick your head in a bucket of water and save your family some grief.

Butch "




So rather than find a realistic way to help them you advocate making it easier for them to kill themselves with legal drugs...you call that a reasonable solution? I was making a point with sarcasm your solution is to really HELP them commit suicide.

Butch



kdsub -> RE: Clinton: US shares blame for Mexican drug wars (3/27/2009 9:55:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

You see it makes no difference how bad legal drugs are… it will be even worse if we legalize more.

I just don’t see why that is so hard for some to understand.

Butch


By the same argument, why should some be legal while others are not?



My point rule is we have enough legal drugs that are killing our children... why legalize more powerful drugs to kill even more.



Vendaval -> RE: Clinton: US shares blame for Mexican drug wars (3/27/2009 9:59:45 PM)

Define "a reasonable way to help them".
 
I have advocated for decriminalization of marijuana but not anything stronger than that.



kdsub -> RE: Clinton: US shares blame for Mexican drug wars (3/27/2009 10:18:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Define "a reasonable way to help them".
 
I have advocated for decriminalization of marijuana but not anything stronger than that.


First ... education...often... continual... from early grade school

Second ...require insurance companies to pay 100 percent of drug rehabilitation programs rather than the usual 50 percent now.

Third... government incentives to states and cities to provide free treatment programs for the uninsured.

Fourth... heavy penalties for drug distribution...no penalties for first time users but require education and treatment.

Fifth...withhold aid and support and apply economic sanctions against any country that is allowing drug production that are found to be used in the US.

Sixth...Until the demand for drugs lessen in the US tighten the borders which would have multiple benefits.

I could go on... these are just some ideas and perhaps not good ones but better then legalize and kill thousands more than are dieing now.

Butch




philosophy -> RE: Clinton: US shares blame for Mexican drug wars (3/27/2009 10:36:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I could go on... these are just some ideas and perhaps not good ones but better then legalize and kill thousands more than are dieing now.




........well, as most in this debate have specifically advocated decriminalising marijuana and not other drugs, i'm sure you can furnish us with clear and accurate data of the thousands that drug has killed. Unless you can't. In which case you may appear to have little understanding of the subject.



kdsub -> RE: Clinton: US shares blame for Mexican drug wars (3/27/2009 10:45:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I could go on... these are just some ideas and perhaps not good ones but better then legalize and kill thousands more than are dieing now.




........well, as most in this debate have specifically advocated decriminalising marijuana and not other drugs, i'm sure you can furnish us with clear and accurate data of the thousands that drug has killed. Unless you can't. In which case you may appear to have little understanding of the subject.


Nope… most did not say they were strictly talking about weed, count the threads... and the majority of murders in Mexico are not the result of marijuana smuggling.

You really think legalizing marijuana will solve the drug problem?.. My you lead a sheltered life.



philosophy -> RE: Clinton: US shares blame for Mexican drug wars (3/27/2009 11:43:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

.My you lead a sheltered life.


...ok, that made me laugh.

So, as you have so clearly read around this subject, spoken with those who work in the field and have such a wealth of experience..........why do you seem to favour the discredited prohibition approach over hard-reduction?



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