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RE: It Now Takes the Gov't to Shut Companies Down? - 3/25/2009 7:44:22 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

Not when they can bring down an economy and or cause a recession.Like letting mega businesses Lehman Brothers fail,causing bank stocks to tank.

You`re talking out dated debunked economic theory while the ship is sinking.

Please step aside.

I don`t need to prove anything.The stock market going up 90 points today says everything that needs to be said.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to MasterHypnotist)

Post #: 21

RE: It Now Takes the Gov't to Shut Companies Down? - 3/26/2009 4:43:33 AM

MrRodgers

Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterHypnotist

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Enterprise and the economy are supposed to serve society.Not the other way around.

~blinks~

??

Elegant, non-sequitar, yet inaccurate, all at the same time. You do have your own consitent style.

At least give us a referrant for your comment?

MH

I still cannot believe what I read in these posts. Another OP of unmitigated bullshit...more partisan tripe.

Bloggers sift through the mess then sift through any little and not so little political modification to find something the other side did.

They ALL knew what they were doing, what was going on, the risks involved...and didnt give a SHIT...because they were making millions. It was GREED that ruled the day and it still is greed that rules the day, today.

Get a grip kinkroids...just what is a CDS (credit default swap), just what is a MBS (mortgaged backed security) are they not more 'junk' bonds or 'junk' paper the they get to party on, speculate on with OUR retirement money ?

Capitalism and the capitalists create these DERIVATIVES (please...what is a derivative ?) that many of the very people charged with financial resonsibility and the assessment of risk...DON'T know about...ON purpose. (bipartisan)

Many were OFF BOOK borrowed funds to further speculate. It was partly the removal of the firewall between between retial and investment banking (bipartisan) it was a continuing reduction in enforcement budgets...repubs.

It was the unregulated speculation and greed that got us here...irrespective of party affiliation. (bipartisan)

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 3/26/2009 4:55:22 AM >

(in reply to MasterHypnotist)

Post #: 22

RE: It Now Takes the Gov't to Shut Companies Down? - 3/26/2009 5:19:19 AM

MrRodgers

Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

The idea is to have a graceful shutdown.Like w/ a computer.You don`t want a crash and the damage involved in a crash.

It`s about stability and market confidence.Things neo-cons and the OP know little about and care about even less..

You are correct but it is called being slave to the speculators when it involves any public co. The govt. and all of its reports are designed to FEED the speculator...why ? We don' need this.

Govt. needs to shut up, produce reports once or twice a yr. They could keep quiet about the quiet takeovers.

How about the derivatives problem that Greenspan took on...all by himself and got PRIVATE money to rescue a bankrupt hedge fund ? He did this all without public fanfare.

The speculators (capitalists) never got a chance to make a play on it, though I am sure they tried and were probably pissed at Greenspan.

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 23

RE: It Now Takes the Govt to Shut Companies Down? - 3/26/2009 8:16:43 AM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

If it were up to me,derivatives would be made illegal,today.

I`ll bet that`s on the agenda along with outlawing speculators` abuses.He`s talked about it and has been doing the things he campaigned on.

Btw,speculation and speculators play an important roll in the commodities and futures markets and are necessary.It`s when it become rigged and when the cops(bush)turn their backs that it becomes a disaster and crooks reign.

The guy doesn`t want to present plans that aren`t thought out as best as possible so it`ll take some time.

One quality of Obama`s last press conference was the mundane nature of it.The emergency alarms seem to have stopped with lots of the typical boilerplate questions.Not, are we going over the waterfalls.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 3/26/2009 8:25:08 AM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to MrRodgers)

Post #: 24

RE: It Now Takes the Govt to Shut Companies Down? - 3/26/2009 8:46:08 AM

shannie

Posts: 200
Joined: 1/26/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

If it were up to me,derivatives would be made illegal,today.

I`ll bet that`s on the agenda along with outlawing speculators` abuses.He`s talked about it and has been doing the things he campaigned on.

Btw,speculation and speculators play an important roll in the commodities and futures markets and are necessary.It`s when it become rigged and when the cops(bush)turn their backs that it becomes a disaster and crooks reign.

The guy doesn`t want to present plans that aren`t thought out as best as possible so it`ll take some time.

One quality of Obama`s last press conference was the mundane nature of it.The emergency alarms seem to have stopped with lots of the typical boilerplate questions.Not, are we going over the waterfalls.

It's amazing that people can STILL hold onto this absolutely fake liberal/conservative, Democrat/Republican (Pepsi/Coke) dichotomy. What you said here is true, but why did you have to single Bush out? It was under Clinton that the primary deregulation of derivatives took place -- but the smoke-and-mirrors and the pillaging has gone on and one with the endorsement of both "sides" (which are, in fact, the same side).

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 25

RE: It Now Takes the Gov't to Shut Companies Down? - 3/26/2009 8:53:01 AM

shannie

Posts: 200
Joined: 1/26/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Not when they can bring down an economy and or cause a recession.Like letting mega businesses Lehman Brothers fail,causing bank stocks to tank.

If they are too big to fail, they are too big to exist. These "mega businesses" grew to these godzilla-like proportions through subsidies, protectionism, and erosion of anti-trust laws. Now they own us with their ever-looming threat to destroy the economy unless we kowtow to their demands. They need to be broken up into 100s of separate entities, and then told to "compete or die."

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 26

RE: It Now Takes the Gov't to Shut Companies Down? - 3/26/2009 10:40:07 AM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

Agreed.Some anti-trust actions and mega company break ups are in order(and cons will squeal when that happens,like when Bell was broken up).

The president has also spoken about the need for those things and will address them to the chagrin of republicans.

I`ve acknowledged that Clinton signed the law(in his 8th year) and he`s said it was a mistake.That`s no excuse for bush not doing something about this for all of his 8 years..As it looks,bush and his corporate/lobbyist advisers did everything they could to make things worse and not better.

Clinton didn`t sign-off on 30 to one money leveraging or defund/under-man/undermine the SEC like bush did.Clinton didn`t sign-off on "no income verification/no credit check/no job check" NINA loans...like bush did.

Clinton manned up and acknowledged his part and has regretted it.Publicly.

Still waiting for the cons to take their responsibility.Not holding my breath.According to them,none of this is their fault.Deregulation and lacks oversight weren`t the problem and some even say that there is no problem.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 3/26/2009 10:42:02 AM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to shannie)

Post #: 27

RE: It Now Takes the Gov't to Shut Companies Down? - 3/26/2009 11:01:38 AM

outlier

Posts: 1111
Joined: 10/22/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

It was the unregulated speculation and greed that got us here...irrespective of party affiliation. (bipartisan)

quote:

ORIGINAL: shannie

It's amazing that people can STILL hold onto this absolutely fake liberal/conservative, Democrat/Republican (Pepsi/Coke) dichotomy. What you said here is true, but why did you have to single Bush out? It was under Clinton that the primary deregulation of derivatives took place -- but the smoke-and-mirrors and the pillaging has gone on and one with the endorsement of both "sides"
(which are, in fact, the same side).

Here is some more reading and listening on the subject.

This is an interview with Frank Partnoy a former seller of these things on Wall Street
who wrote a book in 1997 saying it was all going to come apart and they knew it.
FIASCO: Blood in the Water on Wall Street,

He also wrote another book:
Infectious Greed: How Deceit and Risk Corrupted the Financial Markets

Remember he was an insider, is a lawyer and is not just someone defending his side.
After you read the read the excerpt there and then listen to the interview you can check out this site.

http://www.opensecrets.org/

It will tell you how much BOTH sides got from Wall Street. This should help you
to understand why Wall Street is now being repaid with your tax dollars.

_____________________________

Avatar from xkcd.com

"A happy sex life may take years to achieve, but it’s worth it in the long run.
Worth the time, the thought - or rather, the thoughtfulness - and, often,
the waiting." Pete Seeger

(in reply to MrRodgers)

Post #: 28

RE: It Now Takes the Gov't to Shut Companies Down? - 3/27/2009 1:29:34 PM

MasterHypnotist

Posts: 120
Joined: 6/8/2006
Status: offline

Mr. Rogers, I have no idea to what you're refering to in the quotation that you attached this to, so I just deleted the quotation. Unlike my detractors, I like to stay on-topic.

[/quote]
I still cannot believe what I read in these posts. Another OP of unmitigated bullshit...more partisan tripe.

Bloggers sift through the mess then sift through any little and not so little political modification to find something the other side did.

Unmitigated
1 : not lessened : unrelieved
2 : being so definitely what is stated as to offer little chance of change or relief

My posts, which contain historical or authoritive references, and statistics, are intended to be unmitigated. The fact that you disagree with them does not make them bullshit, it just shows that facts are unimportant to you.

That I note who the Chairpeople of the Congressional Committees that created this travisty are, their party affiliation, and their voting history, does not make me partisan. It makes me informed.

A Congress that lowers lending standards below what economists and high-risk lending institutions testify is unsafe, is manipulative. Mortgage companies already involved in high-risk loans were not allowed to opt out.

A Congress that raises interest rate limits on credit cards, as well as the formula of maximum debt allowed beyond what economists (and common sense) say is sustainable, is manipulative.

This mess doesn't need sifting. It's too big and obvious to sift. Litter boxes need sifting. This elephant and donkey dung economic policy needs a front end loader! An "Emergency Stimulus Package" that is loaded with items that do nothing to immediately stimulate the economy (Pell Grants, Museum Grants, et. al.), where 83% of the money is disbursed in two to five years from its passing is simply a lie to the American people.

Bipartisanship promised is a fraud when Democrat Speaker Pelosi presents fiscal bills with no Repulican involvement. Bipartisanship promised is a fraud when Democrat Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid only reaches out to three key Republican Senators, and then threatens "Reconciliation" when moderate Democrats begin bi-partisan consultation with moderate Republicans in upcoming fiscal legislation.

Put that in your partisan pipe and smoke it! I vote independently, read my local paper, listen to my local radio, and now that my medical and business debt has been retired, without Federal assistance, I live within my means.

I infer that this "crisis" was manufactured because I believe that those people were not too stupid to know what the results of what they are doing will be.

They (who is "They?") ALL knew what they were doing, what was going on, the risks involved...and didnt give a SHIT...because they were making millions. It was GREED that ruled the day and it still is greed that rules the day, today.

Get a grip kinkroids...just what is a CDS (credit default swap), just what is a MBS (mortgaged backed security) are they not more 'junk' bonds or 'junk' paper the they get to party on, speculate on with OUR retirement money ?

How individuals save for their retirement is up to them. If they have to make withdrawls, people who were stock/mutual fund/bond heavy and inattentive got hurt, IF they had to withdraw money. Learn from it. I still have as many shares in my mutual funds as always. I watch the health of those companies, and keep track of who the fund managers are. If I feel my money is at risk, then I will move my money into something else, and take my licks. So far, I'm happy. I maintain as much responsibility for my welfare as the government allows me to.

There are numerous quotations about The Great Depression, from southern blacks. The gist of it was that THEY had no idea there was a depression, until the white folk told them there was. As poor as they were, they were living as best they could. Seems people need to understand basic things like that.

Capitalism and the capitalists create these DERIVATIVES (please...what is a derivative ?) that many of the very people charged with financial resonsibility and the assessment of risk...DON'T know about...ON purpose. (bipartisan)

Many were OFF BOOK borrowed funds to further speculate. It was partly the removal of the firewall between between retial and investment banking (bipartisan) it was a continuing reduction in enforcement budgets...repubs.

It was the unregulated speculation and greed that got us here...irrespective of party affiliation. (bipartisan)
[/quote]

Everything else you shared here is accurate. It is greed. Congress stacked the deck understanding our financial system. Corporations then responded, because they all have to show profits. Actions based on promises made by Congress to these corporations in private are then forgotten and reviled in public.

Loans that are now labeled as "Toxic" by Congress, were made because Congress wrote the rules and forced the issue. Real property was allowed to be over-valued because municipalities need the taxes, and the public needs a sense of affluence and prosperity.

Why is deflation a crisis? It isn't, it's a correction. It may be uncomfortable, or even drastic when delayed too long, but it is nothing evil, it is simply a correction. Simply change the rules back to enforce fiscal and feduciary responsibility, even if it doesn't inflate land or house values. Even if it doesn't inflate dividends. Even if it doesn't inflate the tax base. Even if people with low or unsteady incomes cannot borrow their way to comfort or excess. Yes, the poor need help. So, help them! Just don't game the system to do it, or shift even more into the government's domain.

Capitalism is not to blame. Congress manipulating the system to create this crisis, and manipulate its "recovery" is to blame.

Go ahead, be bi-partisan. Look at the names behind the Regulations. Look at the politicians who raised concerns... at the time! Look at the media that raised concerns and the media who carried the water. Yes, there's enough blame for both sides of the aisle, but who shoulders most of it for the greatest length of time?

Go ahead, be bi-partisan,

MH

(in reply to MrRodgers)

Post #: 29

RE: It Now Takes the Gov't to Shut Companies Down? - 3/27/2009 2:10:59 PM

MasterHypnotist

Posts: 120
Joined: 6/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Not when they can bring down an economy and or cause a recession.Like letting mega businesses Lehman Brothers fail,causing bank stocks to tank.

You`re talking out dated debunked economic theory while the ship is sinking.

Please step aside.

I don`t need to prove anything.The stock market going up 90 points today says everything that needs to be said.

You heard it here first, people!

059 says that information like credit scores, job history, debt to income ratios for determining how much mortgage someone can afford or credit card debt they should carry, considering P/E ratios when purchasing stock or mutual funds, corporate and municipal credit ratings, etc., are debunked economic theory.

It's OK for the Democrat House, Senate, and President to accumulate more debt in a few hectic months, than all preceeding administrations added together, accumulated in over 225 years.

Businesses that fail within the rules and regulations, because the rules and regulations are unsound, should be given aid from the Congress that created the unsound rules and regulations. Our tax money, taken from us, allows the Federal Government to become the majority share holder in these companies. Meanwhile, we pay the interest debt with our future taxes, and our interest payments to the "saved" companies.

Want to save CitiBank, et. al.? Take that "emergency" money that doesn't get into the system in any form for another 2-5 years, and give it directly to the people, on condition that THEY PAY it toward credit or mortgage debt as of... January 1, 2009 (Arbitrary, but means that piling on further debt piled on during its debate is not rewarded). At the same time, reverting to sound fiscal and feduciary Federal regulations.

- Private debt gets paid.
- Corporations get saved.
- Fiscal responsibility is restored.
- Federal government does not become further empowered.

I know, I'm a simplistic, partisan SOB for even thinking such things,

MH

PS: The stock market line was such a weak play for legitamacy, given the dynamics and history.

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 30

RE: It Now Takes the Gov't to Shut Companies Down? - 3/27/2009 2:25:46 PM

MasterHypnotist

Posts: 120
Joined: 6/8/2006
Status: offline

shannie,

A public kudos for two well thought out and well spoken posts.

Post in these boards as long as you enjoy doing so. Regardless of whether I agree or disagree, you have my respect.

MH

(Edited cuz I hate it when I misspell a name)

< Message edited by MasterHypnotist -- 3/27/2009 2:32:26 PM >

(in reply to shannie)

Post #: 31

RE: It Now Takes the Gov't to Shut Companies Down? - 3/27/2009 5:49:42 PM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterHypnotist

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

How about it being total nonsense?

No one was "forced" to make loans.

Regulations were change that allowed these things to happen, but there were plenty of banks and other mortgage lenders that were wise enough, and/or not greedy enough to step away from it.

How about what being total nonsense?

On the micro-scale, banks who were in the business of making "High Risk" loans under the previous regulations, WERE FORCED to continue making such loans under the new regulations. If they didn't, some individual, group settlement lawyer, social activist organization, or the Justice Department would have taken them to court for... wait for it... d-i-s-c-r-i-m-i-n-a-t-o-r-y practices!

On the mega-scale, have you noticed over the last few months just what happens in a consumer society when banks don't make loans?

Only the banks not already making high risk loans were able to maintain their distance from the problem.

So, you are right in your summary, if not in your premise.

Regulations were changed by Congress (primarily high-risk mortgages and credit card consumer interest rates and limits) that allowed these things to happen. Greedy institutions were not allowed to opt out of their practices, even though Congress lowered the guidelines BELOW what these institutions felt safe, even in their corporate greed. Short of closing, these banks were required by Federal Regulation to make what are now called, Toxic Loans. Banks and other mortgage lenders that were not involved in High Risk mortgages, were not required to begin doing so.

It's just that simple,

MH

Yes, I've agreed before about things being simple around here lately.

Unfortunately the mortgage/sub-prime /derivative crisis is not.

No matter how much you want to blame it on Congress.

(in reply to MasterHypnotist)

Post #: 32

RE: It Now Takes the Gov't to Shut Companies Down? - 3/28/2009 11:19:56 AM

MasterHypnotist

Posts: 120
Joined: 6/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Yes, I've agreed before about things being simple around here lately.

Unfortunately the mortgage/sub-prime /derivative crisis is not.

No matter how much you want to blame it on Congress.

These comapnies can only legally do what is allowed within the regulations written by Congress, and administered through the FDIC, SPIC, etc. If they have done something illegal (and it happens) then get the regulatory agencies and the court system on their case. But as long as they are operating within the guidelines which they are given, then the originating blame rests with Congress. They write the laws.

I'm not saying it's either/or. I'm saying it's "hand in glove." Congress is the hand, the financial/investment/stock companies are the glove.

It's not blame, it's how it works at the current time. This crisis was engineered, or the legislators are financial idiots... wait, that's not mutually exclusive either, is it.

All the best,

MH

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 33

RE: It Now Takes the Gov't to Shut Companies Down? - 3/28/2009 1:10:34 PM

angelikaJ

Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline

Edward

(((hugs)))

(in reply to MasterHypnotist)

Post #: 34

RE: It Now Takes the Gov't to Shut Companies Down? - 3/28/2009 1:24:55 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

"allowed within the regulations written by Congress"

Mortgage swaps, derivatives and all the ultra exotic loan products that got us into this mess were all unregulated markets,outside of any government oversight.A predatory capitalist`s dream.

As Jon Stewart pointed out during a serious moment,huge amounts of capital were exchanging hands in a back room by insiders and we,the average saver/investor were providing the capital for that crap shoot.

As far as partisanship,most if not all the damage accrued during bush`s 1st six years when the cons ran the whole show.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to angelikaJ)

Post #: 35

RE: It Now Takes the Gov't to Shut Companies Down? - 3/28/2009 3:06:28 PM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterHypnotist

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Yes, I've agreed before about things being simple around here lately.

Unfortunately the mortgage/sub-prime /derivative crisis is not.

No matter how much you want to blame it on Congress.

These comapnies can only legally do what is allowed within the regulations written by Congress, and administered through the FDIC, SPIC, etc. If they have done something illegal (and it happens) then get the regulatory agencies and the court system on their case. But as long as they are operating within the guidelines which they are given, then the originating blame rests with Congress. They write the laws.

I'm not saying it's either/or. I'm saying it's "hand in glove." Congress is the hand, the financial/investment/stock companies are the glove.

It's not blame, it's how it works at the current time. This crisis was engineered, or the legislators are financial idiots... wait, that's not mutually exclusive either, is it.

All the best,

MH

In a word, BULLSHIT!

The law can only do so much.

Congress is not a a supervisor hovering over every business with the power and authority to micro-manage.

(in reply to MasterHypnotist)

Post #: 36

RE: It Now Takes the Gov't to Shut Companies Down? - 3/28/2009 7:36:17 PM

MasterHypnotist

Posts: 120
Joined: 6/8/2006
Status: offline

[/quote]

In a word, BULLSHIT!

The law can only do so much.

Congress is not a a supervisor hovering over every business with the power and authority to micro-manage.

[/quote]

and the wonderful thing is, you believe that. Damn the facts, I can say BULLSHIT! and they all just fade away.

http://financialservices.house.gov/

3/26/2006
Miller, Watt and Frank Introduce National Mortgage Reform and Anti-Predatory Lending Bill

3/26/2009
Financial Services Committee Passes Grayson-Himes Legislation to Tie Pay to Performance for TARP Recipients

3/20/2009
Frank Calls on Lockhart to Cancel Fannie and Freddie Bonuses

3/20/2009
Financial Services Committee to Consider Legislation to Prohibit Bonus Payments

ETC.

Must be nice to have two different sets of rules of responsibility and accountability.

So, when does your commune open?

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 37

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