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RE: Ex-Bush admin official: Many at Gitmo are innocent - 3/20/2009 8:56:56 AM   
Owner59


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Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Not true at all Merc.Your favorite president`s fuck ups and the damage done will last for decades.So will too,comments and critisism directed at him.

You`ll be waiting a long,long time before hearing folks not talking about the shoe dodger.



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RE: Ex-Bush admin official: Many at Gitmo are innocent - 3/20/2009 9:12:32 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Not true at all Merc.Your favorite president`s fuck ups and the damage done will last for decades.So will too,comments and critisism directed at him.
Now you come here putting him in your category of not being able and ready with answers or actions because of "comments and criticism directed at him"? I thought at minimum he was a man of character and integrity and still do. Surprised you don't have that same confidence and need to give the concern of critique as a rationalization. I know he was on Leno, but his positive 'buzz' factor shouldn't affect his decisions. Do you really think it should?

quote:

You`ll be waiting a long,long time before hearing folks not talking about the shoe dodger.

What's "not true" that the President can't release these prisoners? He's as impotent in power as he is at bowling? I know he's an entertainer, but he does have the authority.

Try as you might, your religion is collapsing before your eyes 59. "My favorite President"? Really you're so devoid of an argument that the best you can do associate me with President Bush?

Although I do understand that at this point, the only positive you can try and offer is; "Obama is not as bad as Bush!" WOW - based upon your opinion that's not saying much is it? And now - acknowledging he doesn't have the will or ability to use his position to act?

Incredible as it is to see you in support of Bush's economic positions and champion Obama's efforts to follow his example of providing corporate welfare for failures; I never thought you'd come here and say he's also not able to live up to a more basic and easier action like having these poor innocent men released from Gitmo. How about providing a list of what you think he CAN do? He can't get out of Iraq. He must send more troops offshore. He must support failing companies and give them welfare. He doesn't have the time to read legislation he's signing. He doesn't talk to his important advisories in his party to understand the consequences of language they add to the pork spending, bail out Bill. He doesn't realize hie appointments don't pay taxes. I don't know what's left, but as short as you make it, at least we'll all have a benchmark of your definition of 'success'.


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RE: Ex-Bush admin official: Many at Gitmo are innocent - 3/20/2009 9:14:02 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth


I know its sad for many that George Bush is no longer President and can no longer be blamed for one more day of Gitmo, one more day of Iraq, or one more day of any foreign intervention; but he isn't. Obama is President, he has the ability to affect instant change and result - issue over! What's the delay?


Was I mistaken or did I read something about Obama closing Guantanamo?

Oh yeah, I did!
Obama signs order to close Guantanamo Bay facility - CNN.com


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RE: Ex-Bush admin official: Many at Gitmo are innocent - 3/20/2009 9:15:47 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth


I know its sad for many that George Bush is no longer President and can no longer be blamed for one more day of Gitmo, one more day of Iraq, or one more day of any foreign intervention; but he isn't. Obama is President, he has the ability to affect instant change and result - issue over! What's the delay?


Was I mistaken or did I read something about Obama closing Guantanamo?

Oh yeah, I did!
Obama signs order to close Guantanamo Bay facility - CNN.com


Glad we agree - What's the delay? Thses innocents should be immediatly released? Why the Iraq method of time table?

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RE: Ex-Bush admin official: Many at Gitmo are innocent - 3/20/2009 9:18:56 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
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From: United States
Status: offline 		Yeah Rule ,he signed the order...but there is still the problem of how to do it.
Merc might not like to hear it but the previous administration has left the present one with a nest of hornets.

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RE: Ex-Bush admin official: Many at Gitmo are innocent - 3/20/2009 9:24:24 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
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From: Dirty Jersey
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It`s easy to throw bricks Merc.Especially with no answers of your own.Rome wasn`t built in a day.

So bush has to dodge a few shoes for a while... deservedly.....At least they`re soft and leathery and not made of masonry...

Is this kind of thing what we`re going to hear from bush supporters, every time a huge embarrassing bush foul up is found?  

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 3/20/2009 9:32:53 AM >

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RE: Ex-Bush admin official: Many at Git mo are innocent - 3/20/2009 10:35:11 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
It`s easy to throw bricks Merc.Especially with no answers of your own.Rome wasn`t built in a day.
So bush has to dodge a few shoes for a while... deservedly.....At least they`re soft and leathery and not made of masonry...
Is this kind of thing what we`re going to hear from bush supporters, every time a huge embarrassing bush foul up is found?  

You'll have to ask the Bush supporters. When you find them, be sure to let them know that you consider Bush still in charge and having power over this Administration's ability to act. They can use the laugh.

Me - I'm enjoying the heck out of watching the Obamites squirm with every position Obama takes in support of a Bush program; starting with Bush Stimulus II, and going right on with not reading the Bill he's signing and being ignorant that specific Bonus approval language was written into it by his, and your, religion - I mean political party. One of these days, and more are appreciating it with each and every passing day of this Administration, enough people will understand that until we act as a whole and get rid of all the current batch of special interest lackeys playing the role of representing the citizens of this country, the better off we will be. I am so pleased that this Administration is providing a daily opportunity to gain that insight. With each rationalized opinion you give you provide another example of how there is absolutely no distinction between the parties. Nearly two Trillion since this Administration took control of corporate welfare and corrupting the dollar's value; with no horizon in sight identifying a turn-around. Not even any 'plan' disclosed. And you stand to be recognized in support of this. Thank you for providing the opportunity to show the compromises necessary to have an irrational support of a political party.

Now here you have a thread based upon a Bush administration official having being used. Apparently this is considered gospel and we are positive we have innocent men incarcerated. Shouldn't a man of integrity how committed to closing this evil place use the opportunity to free these innocent men? Here you are, with Rule, giving this opinion as fact - are you at odds with the current administration for their lack of action on this major disclosure?

However, on this issue - maybe his promise to close Gitmo means he's going to close it after these people die? You, know - like Iraq with a timetable, and in line with the public opinion polls and exit interviews from the stacked audiences the President uses for the media.

I know very well, with all your experience, that it's very easy to "throw bricks". I just didn't' realize until having your dream fulfilled that you'd be so incapable of either building a house with them, or having some ability to address them. However, seeing similar problems arise from the President, Congress, and the media concerning this Administration - I can appreciate you problem.

When you only have, "give it time" as a rebuttal - that speaks to the lack of confidence in what's occurred thus far. I acknowledge that. As I acknowledge that you have no response to any question. You couldn't even go on record with one measurable goal and time-line, let alone a list. 

Rome may not have been built in a day; however, witnessing the devaluation of the dollar, the exodus of corporations from the US, the failure of generating private investment capital, and the open discussion going on regarding a global denigration of confidence in the US and this Administration in particular to the point where many nations what to disassociate their trade to the US dollar; sure show how that in the case of the US, 60 days, is enough time to set a path for the modern day version of Rome to fall.

However - I hear the reviews from last nights Leno didn't go so good, so I'm sure that will distract the President's attention today. I sure hope the Senator Dodd doesn't slip in any more payback language to another Bill being considered while this critical and latest 'bowling crisis' is being resolved.

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RE: Ex-Bush admin official: Many at Gitmo are innocent - 3/20/2009 10:38:53 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Yeah Rule ,he signed the order...but there is still the problem of how to do it.
Merc might not like to hear it but the previous administration has left the present one with a nest of hornets.


I know... it's disgusting to laugh at the situation too, as if it were some pertinent political point to make at the current administration. Some of these people have been in that legal limbo for six years... imagine

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RE: Ex-Bush admin official: Many at Git mo are innocent - 3/20/2009 11:48:56 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline 		No, I'm not presenting this man's opinion as fact.

Only another opinion on the facts which have been well-documented.

Many of these "terrorists" were innocents caught up in a misguided operation to find terrorists by offering monetary rewards.

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RE: Ex-Bush admin official: Many at Git mo are innocent - 3/20/2009 12:18:54 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Many of these "terrorists" were innocents caught up in a misguided operation to find terrorists by offering monetary rewards.


I don't know how many ways I can agree with this statement. Why isn't our President acting to free them immediately?

Better yet, considering that he has the support and numbers under the current political make-up of Congress, to accomplish this goal - where is the public outcry to act that was there just a few months ago? Shouldn't Michael Moore be in the Cuban harbor offering them a ride? What happened to the Washington DC protesters who were there in front of the White House every day up until January 20th?

That's the part I don't get. You posted this thread to bring attention to this major miscarriage of justice. One of the major election platforms Obama ran upon was making good on this specific problem. Yet - other than using it to point out the failings of an Administration out of power - no action is being taken.

That's the part I don't get.

We have a President who thinks the place should be closed. Evidence has been provided, albeit from a discredited source, the Bush Administration. But still there are, as you put it, "innocents caught up in a misguided operation to find terrorists by offering monetary rewards" being held while the power to do something about it exists in the very hands of a sitting President elected to end this situation. 

How do you explain it?

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RE: Ex-Bush admin official: Many at Git mo are innocent - 3/20/2009 2:34:05 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline 		Well I believe I already posted he is doing something about it.

Unfortunately, these things have legal ramifications which I know you are aware of.

Yet you somehow are trying to to make an issue of campaign promises, although being fulfilled, not happening instantaneously.

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RE: Ex-Bush admin official: Many at Git mo are innocent - 3/20/2009 3:00:00 PM   
Slavehandsome


Posts: 382
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Status: offline 		People, please don't digress into a Republican vs. Democrat debate.  Zoom out and remove the labels from the guilty parties, and you'll see that we're on the same path.  Only the calendar's date has 'changed'.  The profiteers will sacrifice anything of yours to keep the system in place.  Then, if the system fails, throw more money at it.  But whatever happens, make sure that none of the guilty parties are held accountable for their decisions.  If you want to rail on Bush, then also rail on Obama for announcing in his first week in the White House after his Bush/Cheney personal training, that he was not going to allow Bush or Cheney to be held accountable for the crimes against humanity involving the U.N. denounced wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, or the taxpayers' grievances for the malicious neglect during Hurricane Katrina.  Furthermore, what Obama actually said about 'closing Guantanamo', was that he was going to keep it open "until at least the end of 2009".  Blackwater just changed their name to Xe, and will start basing themselves out of China and maybe one day, somebody will pay them way too much to fly over, and given sanctioned immunity, to conduct 'international aid' missions in the U.S. when our government goes bankrupt.  In summary, my point is, that things are going exactly according to plan, and when decisions by elected officials don't quite add up to what you might have done, remember who's profitting by their decisions, and for God's sake, KEEP THE SYSTEM IN PLACE, even if its the wrong system! 


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RE: Ex-Bush admin official: Many at Git mo are innocent - 3/20/2009 3:13:36 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Slavehandsome

If you want to rail on Bush, then also rail on Obama for announcing in his first week in the White House after his Bush/Cheney personal training, that he was not going to allow Bush or Cheney to be held accountable for the crimes against humanity involving the U.N. denounced wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, or the taxpayers' grievances for the malicious neglect during Hurricane Katrina.  Furthermore, what Obama actually said about 'closing Guantanamo', was that he was going to keep it open "until at least the end of 2009".


Let's see, so Obama said we are going to close Guantanamo but not until the end of the year.

I'm sorry, but what about this did you find failing in what he promised during his campaign?

And also point out to me where he said the former administration would not be held accountable for its actions.

Yes, he did say he thought it was counter-productive, but he also explicitly said the possibility was on the table.

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RE: Ex-Bush admin official: Many at Git mo are innocent - 3/20/2009 3:15:32 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Unfortunately, these things have legal ramifications which I know you are aware of.
Can't Congress pass a retroactive law addressing any of the legal ramifications, or is that action exclusive to the AIG issue? AIG only involves money - these are innocent people incarcerated wrongly who should be reunited with their loving families back home. 

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RE: Ex-Bush admin official: Many at Gitmo are innocent - 3/20/2009 6:02:41 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		I really wish a full investigation of all the Gitmo stuff would occur. I am pretty sure there are criminal charges that should be filed way up the chain of command into the previous admin.

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RE: Ex-Bush admin official: Many at Git mo are innocent - 3/20/2009 6:04:07 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Have you considered for one minute what their reception might be like 'back home', after a six years stint in Guantanamo? Perhaps 'back home' isn't their home anymore. Should they be punished for having been held illegally, perhaps? 

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RE: Ex-Bush admin official: Many at Gitmo are innocent - 3/28/2009 2:45:49 AM   
MasterShake69


Posts: 752
Joined: 11/30/2005
Status: offline 		http://news.scotsman.com/ciatortureflights/ExCIA-man-slates-torture.3589454.jp

Ex-CIA man slates 'torture' Published Date: 12 December 2007 CIA officers extracted valuable information from a terrorist suspect after he was subjected to waterboarding, a simulated drowning technique condemned as torture, a former CIA interrogator has said. Abu Zubaida, a suspected al-Qaeda lieutenant, co-operated less than a minute after interrogators subjected him to the technique, John Kiriakou, told ABC News and the Washington Post.

"It was like flipping a switch," Mr Kiriakou, who now works in the private sector, said. He said the session probably helped prevent attacks, but he now believes waterboarding is torture and "Americans are better than that".

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Let`s torture them all to find out which ones are innocent and which are guilty...    According to vice-treasonist Dick,it`s what`s kept us safe since 9/11...

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RE: Ex-Bush admin official: Many at Git mo are innocent - 3/28/2009 4:21:35 AM   
SpinnerofTales


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quote:

I don't know how many ways I can agree with this statement. Why isn't our President acting to free them immediately?
ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth


Ok, let's put the rhetoric aside and try to answer the question (I know, I must annoy you terribly by trying to answer your questions rather than focusing on what a total clusterfuck the Bush administration was).

There are a couple of reasons why a "let 'em all go" strategy isn't going to work. First and foremost, we have some real terrorist threats incarcerated in Gitmo. For someone who has the security of the United States as their number one job, it isn't a feasible strategy to let them go even in the name of freeing the innocent. Second, there is the question of where to put these people. Innocent or not, these are people who's old lives, in many cases, just aren't there anymore. Their countries won't take them back (for a number of reasons not having to do with terrorism, guilt or innocence), no other country wants them settling there and putting them on the streets in the US would open a huge can of worms that no politician, no matter how good of heart, is going to want to open.

It is going to take some time to figure out how to deal with this matter and to impliment that solution. However, I do think it's a positive step that our new administration seems to at least recognize that there is a problem, rather than using the "Round 'em all up and let God sort 'em out" philosophy.



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RE: Ex-Bush admin official: Many at Gitmo are innocent - 3/28/2009 4:25:36 AM   
StrangerThan


Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
Status: offline 		Of all the things that occurred in the last 8 years, Gitmo ranks near the top of my list of Bush mistakes. Iraq? I've always believed he could have used a humanitarian argument much more effectively in terms of getting and keeping support here at home. If you read the UN charter, one of the legal ways of invading a member country is to demonstrate that country is a danger to your own. I forget the actual language, maybe it is imminent danger, but when I read it, I understood at least one of the reasons for the WMD fiasco. Saddam needed to go. Any leader who will kill thousands of his own is a blight on humanity. Add to it his repeated violations of treaty and that debate would have kept me on board for Iraq. Regardless of whether or not I agreed with the tactics, at least I could understand the motivation and believe in my own leadership for taking a stance that some integrity to it. Invading Iraq was never my real beef with Bush when it came to that particular gaffe. It was lieing about it and continuing to lie that put me on the other side. Sort of a classic case of doing something that needed to be done, but doing it for all the wrong reasons.

Gitmo and the Patriot Act though were two things so inherently un-American and so inherently unconstitutional that their very existence was a blight on our own humanity. Again, I have no issue with holding combatants. I do have an issue with holding them indefinitely, with denying legal counsel, with no intention of ever charging them with anything, and with torture. I never considered the debate over their rights to point to the real issue. For me, it wasn't whether or not they had a right to constitutional protections. I think if you have to debate whether or not someone has a right to be treated in a way that is synonymous with what it means to be American, you've lost sight of that association yourself.

I can understand a point like.... we've rounded up thousands, the evidence gathering period could be years. I can understand an intelligence gathering period. I can understand eventually bringing people to trial as long as there is a process in it where results can be measured. What I could never understand was the continual assertions as fact that these were terrorists. Seemed simple to me. If you know that for a fact, put them on trial and sentence them to.. drum roll, gitmo.

Gitmo is a stain on the country and a big reason for it being a stain is not the fact that it exists, but the way in which it was done. The entire process didn't so much demonstrate to me the administration's intent to protect America, but its intent to do what it wanted, when it wanted, and to wiggle around the constitution in every way possible. I thought Bush stupid over Iraq - not for invading, but for manufacturing reasons to when the biggest one sat right in front of him and was basically ignored until they started grasping for straws in order to deflect criticism.

Gitmo though, was scary. Not because of what was done to them but the lengths it showed the administration was willing to go in circumventing the law that protects us all. I'm happy to see it go.

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