RE: Make concrete pipe?

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LookieNoNookie -> RE: Make concrete pipe? (3/16/2009 5:52:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou We have a water drainage problem, caused by part of the building settling lower another part of the building making it to where in heavy rain it will sometimes leak under the door. So, I've looked at the problem and determined the only way to fix this situation is to construct a drainage contraption. Essentially I'm going to build where the vast majority of the water drains off the building a sort of water storage bin, that is connected to the main drainage pipe that is now to high compared to the effected area, the pipe runs about a 100 feet under the building and exists into the ditch. Essentially I'm going to using cinder blocks and concrete to build the basin area up about 3-4 feet off the ground. The pipe, and here is where the question comes in will be either made of cement or contain a plastic pipe housed in cement. Well, when we purchased this place, they had left lots of concrete in bags, they left cinder blocks on a pallet, and a barrel full of concrete. It all still looks good, so I'm awash in free concrete. So, I'm wanting to build a pipe that is a 100% concrete. Because I don't want to spend any money. Here's my idea for doing such, if someone has experience and can tell me if this will work or not. I plan on building the underground part in segments and coating the small excess piece of pipe matching the diameter of the long drainage pipe with vaseline or some type of coating to prevent it from adhering with the concrete, simply using it to force the concrete to form around it, then the "theory" is I'd be able to remove that 2 foot length of pipe and make the next section. So, the end result will be a solid buried underground concrete pipe. So, the essential question I guess is will vaseline work to stop the concrete from gripping the pipe, or is there something better for this purpose. Thanks. The effected area must be drained using that one drain pipe as the building is a U shape, with the water problem in the middle of the U, the pipe is the only alternative outside of get heavy machinery involved. Here's my advice...as a contractor who's done this type of work over the last 30 years: Don't. Buy the pipe, do it right...and smoke less, drink less or do something less to find the money...and do it right. Doing it the way you're describing...if you were me (and knew what you were doing)...you'd still fuck it up. What you've just described is an ear wax problem...deciding to resolve it by taking some (very) used newspaper that you found in an alley (probably pee'd on multiple times by a local vagrant), pinching and rolling it up just so...to stick in your ear, twisting multiple times in hopes of getting all your ear wax out. You're going to end up NOT finding you should have used some very clean Qtips...but rather, ending up at ER, wishing despreately that you had used Qtips from the very start.

DesFIP -> RE: Make concrete pipe? (3/16/2009 6:18:57 PM)
You need a structural engineer or an excavator with fifty years experience. Preferably both.

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Make concrete pipe? (3/16/2009 10:34:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP You need a structural engineer or an excavator with fifty years experience. Preferably both. Nope just need motivation the willingness to mess up a bit, and learn something new. Got half the hole dug, I can't dig for to long my back will start hurting, half hour at a time, with a ten minute break in the middle. I should have this done by October!!!

TheHeretic -> RE: Make concrete pipe? (3/16/2009 11:06:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah NO CONCRETE as water will eventually break down mixed concrete and make it as if you had done nothing. That is just completely wrong, Steel. I mean 180 degrees of bullshit. Concrete and water are the best of friends. If you had such an experience during your landscaping days, you mixed your components completely wrong. Need, there is no law anywhere that says pipe has to be round. Just build a damn binjo ditch, and cover it. Or buy pipe, and use the concrete to build a nice reflecting pool or koi pond at the outflow point.

housesub4you -> RE: Make concrete pipe? (3/17/2009 5:03:18 AM)
Never mind.....I took concrete pipe as slang for something else.

SteelofUtah -> RE: Make concrete pipe? (3/17/2009 5:30:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah NO CONCRETE as water will eventually break down mixed concrete and make it as if you had done nothing. That is just completely wrong, Steel. I mean 180 degrees of bullshit. Concrete and water are the best of friends. If you had such an experience during your landscaping days, you mixed your components completely wrong. Need, there is no law anywhere that says pipe has to be round. Just build a damn binjo ditch, and cover it. Or buy pipe, and use the concrete to build a nice reflecting pool or koi pond at the outflow point. You need to do so research on Mix your own Concrete then. Cause I got do it yourself jobs falling apart every day. There are THOUSANDS of DIFFERENT Concrete Mistures used in Professional Jobs every day. I am assuming that He has a Wheelbarrow and a Shovel and Bags of Pre Mixed which is the WORST thing that can be used for what he is explaining. Don't take my word for it go to Home Depot and ask ANYONE in that area. Premix in Bags, again which I am assuming is what he has, is not good for what he wants to do, he needs something with a Hard cure and that requires a special mixture and because the concrete will be submerged and Constantly wet it will need to be either Pressure Formed like Concrete Drainage Pipe which I am also cure he doesn't have or it will nee to be rebar reinforced which I am assuming he does not know how to do. Concrete and water CAN MIX Yes but not the way he was planning on doing it. Hell don't take my word for it READ THE BAG OF CONCRETE Most will tell you the extent they are workable Steel

kdsub -> RE: Make concrete pipe? (3/17/2009 7:08:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah NO CONCRETE as water will eventually break down mixed concrete and make it as if you had done nothing. That is just completely wrong, Steel. I mean 180 degrees of bullshit. Concrete and water are the best of friends. If you had such an experience during your landscaping days, you mixed your components completely wrong. Need, there is no law anywhere that says pipe has to be round. Just build a damn binjo ditch, and cover it. Or buy pipe, and use the concrete to build a nice reflecting pool or koi pond at the outflow point. You need to do so research on Mix your own Concrete then. Cause I got do it yourself jobs falling apart every day. There are THOUSANDS of DIFFERENT Concrete Mistures used in Professional Jobs every day. I am assuming that He has a Wheelbarrow and a Shovel and Bags of Pre Mixed which is the WORST thing that can be used for what he is explaining. Don't take my word for it go to Home Depot and ask ANYONE in that area. Premix in Bags, again which I am assuming is what he has, is not good for what he wants to do, he needs something with a Hard cure and that requires a special mixture and because the concrete will be submerged and Constantly wet it will need to be either Pressure Formed like Concrete Drainage Pipe which I am also cure he doesn't have or it will nee to be rebar reinforced which I am assuming he does not know how to do. Concrete and water CAN MIX Yes but not the way he was planning on doing it. Hell don't take my word for it READ THE BAG OF CONCRETE Most will tell you the extent they are workable Steel Steel we have used bagged concrete everyday to brace water pipe and laterals...been doing it for 40 years… Can’t get much wetter than that… never a problem. Butch

TheHeretic -> RE: Make concrete pipe? (3/17/2009 8:41:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah Don't take my word for it No danger of that, Steel. [8\|] In fact, if you are going to try and defend your ridiculous assertion about the relationship of water and concrete, I may take anything else you say with a bigger pinch of salt as well. For starters, sack-crete, or "mix your own," as you refer to it is no different than the stuff that comes off a truck. Very often they come from the same plant, where they send out the route mixers in good weather, and bag the dry stuff when it rains, or is too hot or cold. There are certain other additives that can be thrown in to change the composition or working characteristics a bit, calcium chloride for a quick-drying, or a "high-early" mix for example, but you can pick those up at Home Depot, too. Saying there are "thousands" of mixes is ridiculous as well. Modern concrete is sand, aggregate (gravel), and portland cement, mixed with water. Not all that complicated. Water does not cause concrete to break down. In fact, the longer concrete remains wet during curing, the stronger it becomes. Where water CAN cause problems with concrete is when it enters cracks, and goes through freeze-thaw cycles. If the water makes it through to the sub-grade, under the slab, that can result in further difficulties. What causes most wheelbarrow and shovel jobs to fail is a loose nut behind the float. Shitty workmanship. They overwork the mix, they add too much water to the initial mix, they fail to eliminate the voids. Any number of possible screw-ups. Concrete is not forgiving. Before you tell someone who worked with this shit for years to google, you might want to try it yourself.

rexrgisformidoni -> RE: Make concrete pipe? (3/17/2009 9:02:20 PM)
Was going to say, my dad has poured concrete pads that are constantly wet, have water/dilute fertilizer flowing over it, and loaders driving on it. He poured the pads in 97 and other than some divots from random heavy things hitting it, it looks great.

igor2003 -> RE: Make concrete pipe? (3/17/2009 9:28:53 PM)
I don't know what your annual rainfall is there, but what about just catching and holding the rainwater in a cistern for use during the summer to water a lawn? No need to run a drain then. Or...you say the problem area is at the base of a "U" shaped building? Have you considered just running rain gutters to the ends of the "U" so that the water dumps outside of the problem area? You could then use the concrete, cinder blocks, etc. for a koi pond, sidewalk, etc....or donate the good items to the local "Habitat for Humanity" and get the tax write-off?

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Make concrete pipe? (3/17/2009 10:05:25 PM)
NeedToUseYou, it seems none of us can agree on what you should do. I'm afraid you're just going to have to sell the place and buy one with better drainage. If your wife blows a gasket at you, just tell her it's OK - a bunch of strangers on the internet told you to do it. She can't stay angry if you have a reason as good as that.

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Make concrete pipe? (3/17/2009 10:53:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: igor2003 I don't know what your annual rainfall is there, but what about just catching and holding the rainwater in a cistern for use during the summer to water a lawn? No need to run a drain then. Or...you say the problem area is at the base of a "U" shaped building? Have you considered just running rain gutters to the ends of the "U" so that the water dumps outside of the problem area? You could then use the concrete, cinder blocks, etc. for a koi pond, sidewalk, etc....or donate the good items to the local "Habitat for Humanity" and get the tax write-off? Here's my current hybrid plan, I'm still going to do what steel suggested further out from the building, but the flow at the main problem is to great for that to work. So, current plan. Step 1 buy plastic pipe, attach to current pipe. Bury in concrete. Make nice and flat. Step 2. Buy Some of these. http://cgi.ebay.com/water-storage-tank-bio-diesel-rain-barrels-motor-oil_W0QQitemZ140306894414QQcmdZViewItemQQptZSmall_Kitchen_Appliances_US?hash=item140306894414&_trksid=p4011.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205\|66%3A2\|65%3A12\|39%3A1\|240%3A1318 plus to make the trip worth it, buy a couple more just in case. As it will be a couple hours each way. Step3. Take one of those tanks above cut a hole in the bottom, insert pipe through bottom, make seal with tar or something. Step 4. Cut out top of the thing seeing the tank is reinforced by metal all around, it shouldn't matter. Step 5. Surround thing with cinder blocks, in order to make it look presentable, and built up enough to prevent any kids from getting in it. So, the concrete will not be exposed to water, the tank will be able to facilitate large temporary downpours pretty well. Adjoining idea, since I will now have a wall I could probably steal anothers idea and extend from it a big grill, preferably solar powered. maybe maybe not solar powered, depends on feasiblity. So, it'll be multi-Function.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Make concrete pipe? (3/17/2009 11:09:27 PM)
How much concrete mix have you got? Is there enough to make a swimming pool?

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Make concrete pipe? (3/17/2009 11:13:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda How much concrete mix have you got? Is there enough to make a swimming pool? LOL, I did think of that, but then some kid would get in it, plus it is rain water, so unless it is either drained quickly, or treated with chemicals it'd get nasty. Plus, the way the roof is built, it dumps a disproportionate amount of water there, and diverting with a gutter would be impossible, so the game is catch it, and drain it. There isn't enough for a swimming pool, though. Well not, for an adult sized one anyway.

SteelofUtah -> RE: Make concrete pipe? (3/17/2009 11:30:02 PM)
NeedToUseYou, That is a Brilliant Idea and Those Tanks work WONDERFUL. Most Models have a Drainage Cap on the bottom so you can usually screw 3" pipe directly to it. I think you got the right Idea on this. I did not realize the ammount of water you were dealing with, Obviously it is more than what I was assuming from your OP. Further, I can respect that those who have experience with Concrete, however we are not talking just about concrete we were talking about Drainage, Outside, and the MAKING of Concrete Pipe. From Sack-Crete or Quik-Crete. I could easily let this go and just ignore it and let you guys think what you want but we are here to help with a Particular Problem, one that you all seem to be ignoring. Like I said I can respect that you have delt with concrete but this is a Landscaping Drainage issue and the although you say all concrete is the same it most certainly is not, there are many different mixes and compositions of Lime, Binders, Cellular concrete mixes and Non Cement Mineral Binder Concrete, The point is that not all concrete is the same nor is the curing process. The only thing that I was commenting on is what NTUY was describing. And with what he was describing from a Landscape Drainage point of view with winter freezing and inpropper Curing due to the Method in which the "Pipe" was going to be Created His pipes would last 1 to 2 years tops before they cracked and then only a matter of maybe another year or two before the destructive nature of water freezing reduced it to crumbling rubble. Anyone with a knowledge of concrete even if it was only Quik-Crete or Sack-Crete would know that from what the OP was having an issue with what he had to work with would not have been sufficent. There are many things that I do not know as well as I would like to and I am the first to admit that, but when it comes to landscaping drainage I have FIXED more "Bright Ideas" that caused Serious long term foundation damage because someone thought an easy fix would solve their problem. Slab Concrete as was mentioned earlier works for a few different reasons one is that it is Reinforced with with Steel Rebar and because when they order however many Yards they need the make sure to look into the weather to determine if they need a Wet Cure or a Dry Cure, this is the same reason that Concrete Drys differently in the Winter than it does in the summer. The same can be said for Asphault which is why there is a multi-million dollar industry that determins Tar Content. I didn't just read this on Wiki I worked for Whipple Concrete and Southwest Foundations every summer from 15 to 17 and then Landscaping for Rasmussen Landscaping for the first two years I was in St George. Regardless of your experience I know for a Fact what works and what doesn't so I could care less if you believe me or take my words with an Ocean of Sea Salt, I know THIS PARTICULAR Problem and the best way to solve it due to the ammount of water how it is draining and what the OP had wanted to use. Steel

TheHeretic -> RE: Make concrete pipe? (3/17/2009 11:48:17 PM)
I don't get why you want to bury plastic pipe inside concrete. What is the point? Now if you want to put it to a good, functional and decorative use, build some forms, in whatever shape you like, about 2 - 2 1/2 inches deep. Keep your area under 2 sq. feet. Pick up a bit of some nice colored stone no larger than 3/4 inch. Mix the concrete as usual, fill the form a coozy less than to the top. Now spread the colored stone across the top, and work it into the mix with a float until covered. Don't overwork it, or the stones won't set properly, and will pop out later. Wait a bit, then scrub away the top layer of what was liquid a few minutes ago with water and plastic bristled brush or broom. Voila! Exposed aggregate stepping stones. For best results, reinforce the stones with a heavy guage mesh.

FullCircle -> RE: Make concrete pipe? (3/18/2009 9:39:53 AM)
FR The tank will only fill so far from the bottom before the water starts to back up into the stack and overflow in your gutter: compare the weight of water in the 100 diameter stack to the weight of water in the tank and you see where I'm coming from. This is usually why septic tanks and such like are buried into the ground with flow into the tank going into the top at the side (or they are pump assisted into the bottom). My own advice would be to look into French drains i.e. cutting trenches with increasing depth away from your property, lining them with clay (except at the ends) and filling them with clean large particle size gravel. You don't want to be un filling tanks all the time and there is also the serviceability issue of cleaning them out. For me there seems more practical solutions in my opinion but sorry if I'm misunderstanding your solutions as I read through the posts rather quickly. Also if your area is subject to freezing cycles you could find yourself with burst pipes if they contain static water and are not buried at least 1m deep to avoid ground frost, you also need to look at the tank specification to see if it can be exposed to freezing conditions: if you are going with plan A. Obviously better solutions and correct advice would be dependent on a proper survey of the ground conditions; soil type, water table etc.

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