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RE: Church shooter's "manifesto" - 3/14/2009 5:41:49 PM

kittinSol

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I bring a European perspective to this... we have a tainted past and people have felt it necessary to muzzle a certain portion of speech (mostly, because of far right groups ) over there. Having been a victim of skinheads neo nazis within my very own university lecture theatre, I have to say I have little sympathy for the plight of hate groups having to shut the hell up for the benefit of the community as a whole. But again...I'm bias...

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RE: Church shooter's "manifesto" - 3/14/2009 5:44:49 PM

FullCircle

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You are correct the 24 hour news cycle only highlights there isn't enough news being reported to fill 24 hours, instead what we get is concentration on the same news and micro analysis of it. In fact for the most part it isn’t reporting of facts but instead reporting of opinions as to those few facts by pundits.

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 3/14/2009 5:46:42 PM >

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RE: Church shooter's "manifesto" - 3/14/2009 5:45:52 PM

BKSir

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From: Salt Lake City, UT
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Hehe, understandable. Gay man growing up in mostly small midwest towns, and now living in salt lake city, UT. ;)

Like I said, I'd LOVE to be able to shut some of these loonies up, but, they want the same thing for me.

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Post #: 23

RE: Church shooter's "manifesto" - 3/14/2009 5:46:06 PM

Vendaval

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Fast Reply -

Adkinsson plead guilty and has been sentenced to life imprisonment.

"Church shooter pleads guilty; letter released"
Adkisson to spend life behind bars for crimes

By Jamie Satterfield
Tuesday, February 10, 2009

"Adkisson pleaded guilty Monday in Knox County Criminal Court to a deadly shooting rampage at the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church, the Kingston Pike home of what the 58-year-old Powell man deemed “ultra liberals” and “foot soldiers” for the powers-that-be in the liberal movement.

He will spend the rest of his life behind bars for killing Greg McKendry, 60, and Linda Lee Kraeger, 61, after opening fire with a sawed-off shotgun inside the church where more than 200 people were gathered to watch a children’s musical. He admitted wounding six others.

During Monday’s hearing, Adkisson said little to explain his actions. After the hearing, however, he released to the News Sentinel a copy of the manifesto and would-be suicide letter he penned before the rampage."

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2009/feb/10/church-shooter-pleads-guilty-letter-released/

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Post #: 24

RE: Church shooter's "manifesto" - 3/14/2009 5:49:39 PM

BKSir

Posts: 4037
Joined: 4/8/2008
From: Salt Lake City, UT
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Fast Reply -

Adkinsson plead guilty and has been sentenced to life imprisonment.

"Church shooter pleads guilty; letter released"
Adkisson to spend life behind bars for crimes

By Jamie Satterfield
Tuesday, February 10, 2009

"Adkisson pleaded guilty Monday in Knox County Criminal Court to a deadly shooting rampage at the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church, the Kingston Pike home of what the 58-year-old Powell man deemed “ultra liberals” and “foot soldiers” for the powers-that-be in the liberal movement.

He will spend the rest of his life behind bars for killing Greg McKendry, 60, and Linda Lee Kraeger, 61, after opening fire with a sawed-off shotgun inside the church where more than 200 people were gathered to watch a children’s musical. He admitted wounding six others.

During Monday’s hearing, Adkisson said little to explain his actions. After the hearing, however, he released to the News Sentinel a copy of the manifesto and would-be suicide letter he penned before the rampage."

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2009/feb/10/church-shooter-pleads-guilty-letter-released/

At least he didn't try for an insanity plea. I never could understand that. Premeditated murder, yeah, obviously a bit nutty. *shrug* A shame that it happened though.

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We'll begin with a spin, traveling in a world of my creation. What we'll see will defy explanation.

I am the voices in your head.

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Post #: 25

RE: Church shooter's "manifesto" - 3/14/2009 5:52:34 PM

Vendaval

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I agree, way too much premeditation for a insanity plea and he seems to have no remorse or regret.

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So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
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http://KinkMeet.co.uk

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Post #: 26

RE: Church shooter's "manifesto" - 3/14/2009 6:11:26 PM

DedicatedDom40

Posts: 350
Joined: 9/22/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BKSir

As far as the manifesto, I don't understand why it was released, it was his personal writings, and, although I think we can all say conclusively that he wasn't quite right in the head, honestly, who cares? The biggest problem, I believe, is that 'news', such as it is, has become such a load of sensationalized crap that it's pathetic. If I wanted sensationalism, I'd turn on E!

The local Knoxville area really didnt see it as senationalism. They were more afraid of it. The religous types seemed afraid it would paint churches badly or cause people to see them as a 'high risk environment', the political right was predicatbly afraid for obvious reasons, and others were afraid of the copycat element.

The publishing of it was 7 months after the shooting, so it wasnt driven by the 'media scoop' mentality. I suspect the paper struggled with the ethics, but decided to release it more for the reason DomKen said, more community discussion and confrontation of some of our "ugly truths" is the answer to hate speech.

I disagree with those who say he was nuts. He was a frustrated man pushed too far by a variety of inputs. Acting out nuts is different than being nuts

The irony is he will be spending his life in jail, spared a death sentence courtesy of liberals, in a prison built by a tax system spawned by liberals, getting buttfucked like some liberal homo, and getting 3 squares a day and a roof over his head, just like some liberal welfare program provides to those on the outside.

I forget..... who won?

(in reply to BKSir)

Post #: 27

RE: Church shooter's "manifesto" - 3/14/2009 6:52:11 PM

slaveboyforyou

Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
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quote:

I bring a European perspective to this... we have a tainted past and people have felt it necessary to muzzle a certain portion of speech (mostly, because of far right groups ) over there. Having been a victim of skinheads neo nazis within my very own university lecture theatre, I have to say I have little sympathy for the plight of hate groups having to shut the hell up for the benefit of the community as a whole. But again...I'm bias...

And how successful have those laws been at ridding Europe of racist attitudes? Our far-Right and far-Left loonies don't have serious political parties. We ignore them, we laugh at them, they are insignificant. We don't need laws to make us be adults. The United States is made up of immigrants, so we share that tainted past with you. We fought in the same war. We also have our own past of racial violence in this country to add to that.

But we don't stifle free speech, because then you give the nuts what they want. When you turn thoughts and speech into crimes, you play into their delusional fantasies. You give them reason to go underground and build up resentment. We let them blow off all the steam they want; they can rant and rave. We simply ignore them. It's what adults do when someone is acting childish.

< Message edited by slaveboyforyou -- 3/14/2009 6:53:07 PM >

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 28

RE: Church shooter's "manifesto" - 3/14/2009 6:58:46 PM

FullCircle

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Joined: 11/24/2005
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One of the things that annoys me most is when the church of Westborough came to the UK they were turned away at the airport rather than allowed to preach and then locked up. The truth of the situation is laws are useless without the conviction of police to charge people with such crimes and prosecutors to prosecute.
It was a sad day for me.

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Post #: 29

RE: Church shooter's "manifesto" - 3/14/2009 7:00:59 PM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
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There is no perfect solution: perhaps if the U.S.A. had had rampant fascism decimating its population just over half a century ago, the situation would be different. In any event, one should be careful about giving free speech to those that want to use its platform in order to destroy it. I'm bloody glad the neo nazis that had a go at me were actually breaking the law. You may, of course, disagree.

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Post #: 30

RE: Church shooter's "manifesto" - 3/14/2009 7:08:58 PM

slaveboyforyou

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From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
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FullCircle, the Westboro assholes are Rev. Phelps and his family. We don't have people in this country lined up to join his congregation; that should tell you something. We don't need anyone to tell us what douchebags they are.

Kittin, I don't what happened to you at your university. When you say "have a go at you," do you mean they were interrupting your speech? We do have public order laws that allow the police to remove disruptive people from public forums. They can stand outside and chant and hold signs, but they can't prevent others from their right to free speech. If you mean an attempt to physically assault you, well then of course that's illegal here.

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Post #: 31

RE: Church shooter's "manifesto" - 3/14/2009 9:27:12 PM

NorthernGent

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Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

We let them blow off all the steam they want; they can rant and rave. We simply ignore them. It's what adults do when someone is acting childish.

Is this true? What about the communist witch hunts? Perhaps it's a case of the nature and significance of the perceived threat.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

Our far-Right and far-Left loonies don't have serious political parties. We ignore them, we laugh at them, they are insignificant.

Kittin fails to make the distinction between England and continental Europe, which is a significant distinction on the grounds that many English and many contintental Europeans realise the marked difference in thought and values. It's a distinction on which prominent writers have commented over the centuries.

Over the last couple of days, there has been a march by soldiers and their family/friends/supporters returing from Afghanistan. A couple of hundred opponents of the invasion, who were muslims, staged a counter protest with placards such as: "murderers", "baby killers" etc. I for one, and I believe this is a widely held view in England, believe the 200 or so muslims are entitled to turn up and have their say.

Out of curiosity, what would be the response to this situation in the event it were in the United States?

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

We don't need laws to make us be adults.

Are you sure? I'm not aware of any developed country that doesn't subscribe to the Rule of Law as a means of ensuring disagreements are resolved without resort to violence.

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Post #: 32

RE: Church shooter's "manifesto" - 3/14/2009 9:31:50 PM

SpinnerofTales

Posts: 1586
Joined: 5/30/2006
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quote:

The irony is he will be spending his life in jail, spared a death sentence courtesy of liberals, in a prison built by a tax system spawned by liberals, getting buttfucked like some liberal homo, and getting 3 squares a day and a roof over his head, just like some liberal welfare program provides to those on the outside
ORIGINAL: DedicatedDom40

DD, Fox News called, they want their analysis back.

(in reply to DedicatedDom40)

Post #: 33

RE: Church shooter's "manifesto" - 3/14/2009 9:49:42 PM

slaveboyforyou

Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline

quote:

Is this true? What about the communist witch hunts? Perhaps it's a case of the nature and significance of the perceived threat.

It was wrong; it shouldn't have happened. A lot of things in American history shouldn't have been allowed under the law.

quote:

Out of curiosity, what would be the response to this situation in the event it were in the United States?

Technically, they have a right to do that here. FullCircle mentioned Westboro Baptist Church's activities; they do exactly that, and they even have the gall to do it at soldier's funerals. It's allowed because of the First Amendment. Now with the post-9/11 hysteria over Islamic terrorism, I don't know what would have happened. Under the law, American citizens have a right (as vile as it is) to do that. Under the law, the police are supposed to protect them from mob violence. Honestly, I don't know if the police would have.

quote:

Are you sure? I'm not aware of any developed country that doesn't subscribe to the Rule of Law as a means of ensuring disagreements are resolved without resort to violence.

I was being a little simplistic with that statement. I think we don't need laws to protect us from ideas. We should be mature enough to ignore hateful speech. We certainly need the law to keep opposing sides civil, so they don't go from shouting to rock throwing. But I think a person shouldn't have the sounds coming from his mouth or the marks he makes on paper regulated.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 34

RE: Church shooter's "manifesto" - 3/14/2009 10:18:15 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

I bring a European perspective to this... we have a tainted past and people have felt it necessary to muzzle a certain portion of speech (mostly, because of far right groups ) over there. Having been a victim of skinheads neo nazis within my very own university lecture theatre, I have to say I have little sympathy for the plight of hate groups having to shut the hell up for the benefit of the community as a whole. But again...I'm bias...

And how successful have those laws been at ridding Europe of racist attitudes? Our far-Right and far-Left loonies don't have serious political parties. We ignore them, we laugh at them, they are insignificant. We don't need laws to make us be adults. The United States is made up of immigrants, so we share that tainted past with you. We fought in the same war. We also have our own past of racial violence in this country to add to that.

But we don't stifle free speech, because then you give the nuts what they want. When you turn thoughts and speech into crimes, you play into their delusional fantasies. You give them reason to go underground and build up resentment. We let them blow off all the steam they want; they can rant and rave. We simply ignore them. It's what adults do when someone is acting childish.

Slaveboy, well said!
Yup, I want to know who the assholes are by letting out their steam in public, be they KKK or Nazis or any other group like that!
That's why an alarm goes off everytime I come across "political correctness" raising it's evil head.

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Post #: 35

RE: Church shooter's "manifesto" - 3/15/2009 12:03:16 AM

ThatDamnedPanda

Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DedicatedDom40

The irony is he will be spending his life in jail, spared a death sentence courtesy of liberals, in a prison built by a tax system spawned by liberals, getting buttfucked like some liberal homo, and getting 3 squares a day and a roof over his head, just like some liberal welfare program provides to those on the outside.

I forget..... who won?

Offhand, I'd say the Constitution. Which is an outcome that I find acceptable.

Sorry you don't. Would you have more respect for the document if it hadn't been written by liberals?

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In the forest of the night
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Post #: 36

RE: Church shooter's "manifesto" - 3/15/2009 2:08:03 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

It was wrong; it shouldn't have happened. A lot of things in American history shouldn't have been allowed under the law.

It has happened in England, too. The secret services have been utilised in order to spy on unions.

My point is that were Communism to gain a foothold in the United States or the unions to gain strength in England, then it would happen again. The reason being that all political systems aspire to certain values for which they'll fight at all costs.

So, in contintental Europe, England and the United Status, state apparatus will be utilised in order to maintain certain values and this will involve surpressing freedom of expression; and it will be supported by sections of society.

Therefore, you're no more 'adults' than the English or continental Europeans.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

Honestly, I don't know if the police would have.

In this case, the marchers tried to get at the counter-protestors, and the police stepped in to prevent mob violence. Everyone's right to an opinion was upheld, and quite right, too.

I suppose the question for yourself is this: as you're so unsure, are you really the 'adults' that you think you are, or is it a case of when something cuts you to the core, you're struggling to maintain the principle of 'freedom of expression' without resort to mob rule?

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

I think we don't need laws to protect us from ideas.

I agree, but then for this to work you'd have to be a people who truly aspire to 'freedom of expression' (anyone can type anuything on a message board), rather than run 'round in a mob because you don't like what you're hearing, e.g. muslims protesting against soldiers' actions.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)

Post #: 37

RE: Church shooter's "manifesto" - 3/15/2009 4:36:46 AM

KaineD

Posts: 497
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

People are responsible for their own actions to palm this off as being media manipulating his brain is an insult. Plenty of people out there are subject to the same influences, dissect a lemon to find it is bitter why?

Maybe so, but his manifesto sounds eerily like the posts of some of our more ardent conservatives here.

That's exactly why publicizing it is a good idea.

It's scary how he sounds just like so many ardent right wingers almost word for word.

Perhaps this man's manifesto will make them take a step back and look at themselves.

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 38

RE: Church shooter's "manifesto" - 3/15/2009 4:55:23 AM

KaineD

Posts: 497
Joined: 2/14/2006
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My feelings on the discussion of free speech and whether or not the right winders this man listened to should tone it down...

I believe freedom of speech ends when you yell "fire" in a crowded theatre, when there is no fire.

Similarly, I don't think television and radio should be the place for hate speech. What do I mean by hate speech? Michael Savage spews hate speech like no ones business, he's one of the worst out there. Hannity is about 50/50. Sometimes he's just a fool, but there are other times he oversteps the boundaries of what I think is acceptable. Like implying Obama is secretly a Muslim...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvtZUNAzD68

And also implying Muslims are bad people that want their children to be "martyrs", while having the words LIBERAL TRANSLATION at the bottom of the screen.

This kind of nonsense from the right wing is almost constant... Hannity, Coulter, Limbaugh...

Before this shooting, I honestly would have said their kind of irresponsible, baseless hate speech would inevitably lead to a shooting. What else is going to happen when you're constantly telling millions that the sky is falling and liberals are ruining the country and liberals are the enemy?

Look at how ugly the McCain rallies were getting. They got riled up not just by negative campaign tactics but by the rhetoric from Fox news and talk radio. You had dozens of people at so many of these rallies with signs saying "Obama = Osama", and they'd yell disgusting, race fuelled comments at Obama supporters.

I believe it's only a matter of time before someone else goes out and decides to kill themselves some liberals. They're socialists, afterall, and they're ruining the country.

(in reply to KaineD)

Post #: 39

RE: Church shooter's "manifesto" - 3/15/2009 9:25:02 AM

Lashra

Posts: 4900
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Status: offline

From what I've read this guy had a myriad of problems and needed mental health help badly. The way that I look at it he is no different than one of the extremists over in the middle east. They buy into these extreme views and are usually impoverished, lack education and the ability to see things with an open mind so they take their frustration out on innocent people.

It is just too bad that we can't always see these things forming in a person's mind and stop them before it happens. My condolences to all the people who lost someone due to this person's mental illness.

~Lashra

_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”

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Post #: 40

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