RE: The cage of self-denial

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RE: The cage of self-denial - 3/12/2009 8:42:39 AM

scarlethiney

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For s-types... have you ever been in submission and felt that you were denying yourself?

Yes in the first year of our relationship I felt smothered and unappreciated and isolated(shut down) myself until I was able to express what I was feeling. I was definitely denying myself and unhappy because of it. We were not communicating and I began to feel that expressing myself was not acceptable and was something Master would view as whining.
Fortunately for me Master did listen and I learned to articulate my feelings more clearly. We made changes. I tried the 24/7 D/s and it just was not practical in my life or his. We do incorporate my submission and his Dominance in our life but it is something we "make" time for now. I always remain conscious of my desire and need to be totally submissive and do feel guilt often that I allow the day to day of living to often come before my submission. I suppose it is my challenge to juggle and find a happy medium between the two.
It takes a collective effort by us both to see that both our needs are met.
We have learned and worked on as husband and wife and as Master and submissive that communication is our most important tool and that unless we make this our most successful tool we will not be successful in our relationship.

scarlet

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RE: The cage of self-denial - 3/12/2009 10:26:44 AM

Prinsexx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

My needs are my responsibility. I can only truly serve if I am happy and healthy and to deny myself is not the path to either and I will fail on all counts. It is my responsibility to take the time necessary even if its just an hour a day to serve myself. And how would self-denial serve my Master when it is me He chose, not some empty shell?

I know this. And I also know where my selg-denial comes from: it doesn't come from my mother... who was a woman way ahead of her time and than post war had to drink herself into numbness when the men came home from War and took the jobs, the social status and all the credit.
My martyrdom and self-denial comes from my father, whom, of a different social class, sat and read books all day and never raised a hand in anger or said a word against us. I look back and recognised that if they could have recognised the dominant woman, submissive male dynamic and it has been socially acceptable in the 1950's then it would have saced there marriage perhaps.
And I know, I know, how paying attention to me, by me, for me, creates a submissive worthy to serve. But it was like years in the wilderness.

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RE: The cage of self-denial - 3/12/2009 11:43:33 AM

CreativeDominant

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Like MasterFireMaam, I've always felt that the submissive had a choice...to obey or not with the understanding that choosing not to obey steers the dynamic into another direction.

If you are going to submit, then look carefully before you choose to do so but then once you have agreed, do it. I expect a submissive who is into me and looking at a relationship-D/s dynamic with me to be able to look within themselves and learn...if they don't already know...how to recognize the stirrings of resentment from denial of self for bad purposes rather than good ones. Caveat...my view here, not one true way being expressed..submission is a process in which denial of needs and wants and desires is a given; that said, denial of needs and wants and desires of the submissive because the master/mistress's needs and wants and desires always conflict with the submissive's should be an indication of something being wrong.

Of course, the submissive has to be aware not only of her wants and needs and desires and the motivation behind them, she also needs to be aware of the reality of finding a dominant that those wants and needs and desires won't come into glaring conflict with. If your want and need and desires as a submissive is to be free to play with others but ONLY with your dominant's approval, then you need to find a dominant who is O.K. with that. If your want and need and desire as a submissive is to be free to play with others of YOUR choice as well as his/hers without permission, then your pool narrows. If your want and need and desire as a submissive is to be free to play with others of YOUR choice and place those dominant's views and perspectives on D/s and BDSM ahead of your dominant, then your pool narrows even further. In these scenarios, the self-denial in order to please the dominant goes down and down and down. But the question to ask is, Is the dominant being selfish in the first scenario presented in expecting self-denial and unreasonable because he won't accept the last scenario as "you being who you HAVE to be"? Your answer determines who and what you seek in a dominant and should begin to point out some of the difficulties you might encounter. This can be applied to any aspect of your submission and how you see it in relation to a dominant.

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RE: The cage of self-denial - 3/12/2009 12:55:08 PM

agirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

And I know, I know, how paying attention to me, by me, for me, creates a submissive worthy to serve. But it was like years in the wilderness.

Paying attention to you , by you, for you, simply helps you be an *aware* person. When you recognise the things that deplete you, it's a little easier to step back from those situations/people. Not easy but easier.

I'm not living my life trying to worthy of being anything for anyone. I'd be utterly crap for anyone that wanted someone selfless and super-thoughtful in any consistant way.

If I have things to work on toward being what I consider* being a good person* , it's nothing to do with making myself worthy of someone or worthy of serving ......it's yet again, a selfish pursuit. ie for me.

I want to be a *good* me for me; my ideals, my pursuits and all the things that make me feel great and productive. When it comes down to it, it's all for me. I want M to be proud of me, I positively pine for his approval but if it came to *him or me* in the end it would be ME because I'm not the *giving* kind, in that way.

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RE: The cage of self-denial - 3/12/2009 2:04:31 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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quote:

tFor s-types... have you ever been in submission and felt that you were denying yourself?

Yes.

quote:

For d-types...are you aware when or if you impose a 'cage' or expect your s type(s) to keep shtumm, keep there heads down and put up and serve?

Yes. When I do it, it's for the greater sense of fulfillment.

quote:

For switches how do you swith vetween acts of self-denial and acts of demand?

Dominants deny and submissives demand quite often, so that's irrelevant.

I refuse to deny my sense of self anymore. But sometimes shutting up and doing what you need to do is more important in the moment, this is true for vanillas as it is for non vanillas.

For those who are in fulfilling relationships, they find they are MORE strong in their sense of self in the long term. If you aren't, it's not because of being a slave, it's because the situation isn't right for you.

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RE: The cage of self-denial - 3/12/2009 2:20:55 PM

Prinsexx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

For s-types... have you ever been in submission and felt that you were denying yourself?

Perhaps, to avoid misunderstandings, I should first ask you specifically what you mean by 'in submission'?

If you mean "have you ever been in a relationship and denied yourself", then the answer is yes.
If instead, you mean something else; then I would have to wait before answering.

I wasn't aware that I had created a confusion..obviously. I meant if, during acts of submission or whilst being in a relationship as a submission have you ever denied yourself, then yes that's what I meant. I suppose another way of saying it would be: have you ever been in a relationship, meaning ANY sort of relationship and denied yourself then I hadn't thought that one through. And yes I would have to say that that would be true for me also.
But thanks so much for pointing that one out. I suppos, since I used to do relationships based on an almost altruistic sense of service, in general, then that was one of the ways I did most relationships.
Maybe I'm somewhat confuse about your confusion.

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RE: The cage of self-denial - 3/12/2009 2:29:37 PM

camille65

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I used to fill my life with a lot of self-denial, pretty much making it a life imperative. It was a nasty form of mental masochism and something I still slide into when I am not pushing to live a life of awareness. I think there needs to be a balance, even for a submissive or a person runs the risk of doing things for the wrong reasons.

Habitual self-denial is denial without purpose, martyrdom has a twisted purpose. By making an effort to be aware of my self I am hoping to be healthy.

I can't separate normal living and 'being submissive' so I can't really answer that part. But a big part of my submitting to him is having to truly be aware of my own motivations and the results of my behavior.

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RE: The cage of self-denial - 3/12/2009 2:34:55 PM

Prinsexx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Of course, the submissive has to be aware not only of her wants and needs and desires and the motivation behind them, she also needs to be aware of the reality of finding a dominant that those wants and needs and desires won't come into glaring conflict with.

Thankyou for your analysis. I had to read it through about four times or more before I could follow the logic and then I thought about why I found the logic of it so difficult to follow if you see what I mean.
And then I read that part of what you said above..and for me the process of a relationship starts (obviously) with the start of a relationship. At the beginning of a d/s relationship I have usually been focused on the dominants desires and wants rather more than considering if I wanted or desired the doominant in the first palce. Now that realisation just hit like a ton of bricks.

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RE: The cage of self-denial - 3/12/2009 4:55:30 PM

DesFIP

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx
My martyrdom and self-denial comes from my father, whom, of a different social class, sat and read books all day and never raised a hand in anger or said a word against us.

Not raising a hand against you is not the same as being actively there for you. Did he live in isolation with his books, not interacting with his offspring? Because if so, that's where it probably comes from. You are attempting to recreate a situation in which you were ignored, in the hopes that if you do it right this time you will get the attention you were starved of.

Of course you won't ever be able to do that. All you can do is work on rooting out this desire to recreate a bad past experience today and look carefully at anyone you are attracted to in case this is another attempt to recreate that past. It is said that we walk into a crowded room and instantly pick the one person who is the worst for us. We pick what is familiar, what is a recreation of our family of origin.

In order to change this, you need to change that part of yourself that believes you don't deserve time and attention because you are essentially bad. You need to look at yourself with adult eyes and not with the leftover magical thinking of our early years. And this is very hard work, probably the hardest work anyone can ever do. Good luck.

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