The cage of self-denial (Full Version)

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Prinsexx -> The cage of self-denial (3/11/2009 4:19:53 PM)

I have to talk from experience. I can't do this post opening thing from an intellectual stance. Very little of this is from an intelledtual point of view.
This is a very good time for me: a time of huge growth and fundamental change. I've just come out of a period of self-denial. Not food, not clothes, not warmth....no not in that sense. But a period of serving someone else so intensely that I denied my own needs. So much so that at one point unless I was denying myself and doing for him... oh and the rest of the household...I felt I didn't have a role or a function. I snapped out of it. I snapped absolutely. That deep depression that hot me after Christmas? Well it got so bad that I was having difficulty walking and yet STILL serving my then master.
I am not blaming him or the teens or other family members. I chose to do it.
In other words: no-one put me in a cage. I caged myself and almost forgot where the key was.
My questions are:
For s-types... have you ever been in submission and felt that you were denying yourself?
For d-types...are you aware when or if you impose a 'cage' or expect your s type(s) to keep shtumm, keep there heads down and put up and serve?
For switches how do you swith vetween acts of self-denial and acts of demand?
For anyone who responds: how does such stuff really make you feel?
PS feeling totally fulfilled at this moment so no confusion between submission and denial tight now.
As ever... because I usually forget to say thanks...thankyou in advance for responding. It's great always great.




smoky -> RE: The cage of self-denial (3/11/2009 4:30:22 PM)

"For s-types... have you ever been in submission and felt that you were denying yourself?"

I've been feeling that way for the first time.  And yet my desire for D/s hasn't really gone away.  I don't have anything else to add really, sorry.  I feel pretty stumped myself.  In the beginning the self-denial felt great, now I'm not so sure.



Prinsexx -> RE: The cage of self-denial (3/11/2009 4:53:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: smoky

"For s-types... have you ever been in submission and felt that you were denying yourself?"

I've been feeling that way for the first time.  And yet my desire for D/s hasn't really gone away.  I don't have anything else to add really, sorry.  I feel pretty stumped myself.  In the beginning the self-denial felt great, now I'm not so sure.


Thank you for this. Your fifth post so welcome.
I talked openly about this once.. at the time the feelings of self-denial hit. He said ~that;s not for you to worry about. That's my responsibility now.~
It was a hook.




DavanKael -> RE: The cage of self-denial (3/11/2009 4:54:55 PM)

For switches how do you swith between acts of self-denial and acts of demand
 
Hmph, I've not thought of this before.  I would say that this applies to me but I don't think it has to do with being a switch so much as being human.  I, as a matter of course, am able to find a particular mindset when denial is 'needed'.  Demand is sometimes harder to conjure, though not difficult. 
I am glad that you are in a better space and a better place,
   Davan



MasterFireMaam -> RE: The cage of self-denial (3/11/2009 5:19:43 PM)

I am not aware if I do this. I've always felt that the slave always has the choice to obey or not. There's consequences, but it's their choice.

Master Fire



sparkyRBF -> RE: The cage of self-denial (3/11/2009 5:25:59 PM)

In reading your post, part of  me identifies with what you say. 

I think in any relationship you have self denial and compromises.  I can sometimes feel that i am the only one ever giving anything up and do a little whoa is me type thing, but when i look at the big picture i'm not the only one who sacrifices and is denied things in this relationship. 

I love green peppers.  Master can't tolerate the smell of green peppers.  Do we ever have a green peppers in the house or garden?  NO

I don't have as much "insulation" on my body as Master does, but he rides in the car wearing a t-shirt so i can have the heat cranked up.   He freezes when he gets out to pump gas so i'll stay warm.  

So yes, i have felt like i am denying myself, but knowing i'm not the only one changes how i feel about it.   I also think being appreciated for selflessness helps encourage it as well.

best wishes to you and thank you for this post.

Edited to change some really bad grammar.  Bad grammar is OK, not really bad grammar.




pinkwind -> RE: The cage of self-denial (3/11/2009 5:54:41 PM)

i just wonder, is it really self denial alone, or in some way making ourselves indispensable, bolstering a position where such action isn't actually necessary? That, or the denial being in some way a form of self inflicted punishment for behaviours only we see as wrong, or unwarranted.

i lived for a long time in a place of self denial, and i personally think that came about as a result of losing a sense of worth in an emotionally abusive relationship, a place from which i tried to make myself at once both invisible and indispensable. Invisible efficiency!

Thankfully i didn't completely lose myself, nor was the damage so ingrained that i could not leave that place and find a more healthy aspect to life and interactions with others. That isn't to say there aren't certain residual traits that have clung on and surface at odd times, when i seem to try and place myself back in that place. It's taking time, but those odd time are becoming more infrequent these days.

Is the place we ourselves build around us some form of defence mechanism, a coping strategy taking on more importance than was necessary?



Huntertn -> RE: The cage of self-denial (3/11/2009 6:09:17 PM)

 A truly Honest  Super Dom/Dommie..will notice things like this...I call it looking beyond their needs..and into yours..But us real types can take a while to see whats happening ..It all goes back into communication...You have to learn all over again How to explain your emontions/needs..and We have to learn to hear what your saying..and read between the lines for the rest..But you do need to tell us these things..We are not mindreaders...altough we honestly try at times...Huntertn



persephonee -> RE: The cage of self-denial (3/11/2009 7:01:31 PM)

Prinnnnieeeee.....good to see you back to your "real" name...(never really liked the other one).....

i serve within the confines of who i am and what i can do from my own sense of self. He chose me...not the empty vase. i can not let go of who i am...she is what has gotten me this far.

my need to serve is what brought me to this life. So i cant deny my own needs in order to meet His...He wouldnt want that...any good one wouldnt want that.

peace

perse



popeye1250 -> RE: The cage of self-denial (3/11/2009 7:36:32 PM)

Well, we all need to take care of ourselves emotionally, financially, physically, and in other ways to be able to be a better partner to our partner.
Being the "protective" type of Dom I'd watch out for my sub/slave for signs of being spread too thin.
And an afternoon walking on the beach or shopping and then dinner in a nice restaurant is always a nice treat. It rejuvenates the soul and lets your sub/slave know that they're valued and appreciated.



Prinsexx -> RE: The cage of self-denial (3/12/2009 1:13:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

For switches how do you swith between acts of self-denial and acts of demand
 
Hmph, I've not thought of this before.  I would say that this applies to me but I don't think it has to do with being a switch so much as being human.  I, as a matter of course, am able to find a particular mindset when denial is 'needed'.  Demand is sometimes harder to conjure, though not difficult. 
I am glad that you are in a better space and a better place,
   Davan

Thank you for the good wishes.
If it's true of everyday life (and yes of course I am aware of selflessness as a mother and aware of assertiveness in the workplace) I am using different words than self-denial and demand. Leaving those two concepts to scenes.
I think then that my submissiveness (and those rare occasions when I switch) to be acute moments perhaps rather than the sustained necessity of everyday life. Selflessness like getting out to work on time despite illness, forgoing wearing 'weekend' clothes by having to wear occice uniform, hierarchies. All of these everyday processes are sustained acts of sleflessness. Often leading to chronic stress.
As I used the term acute then I realised that the self-denial was acute. That was a break through.




Prinsexx -> RE: The cage of self-denial (3/12/2009 1:17:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

I am not aware if I do this. I've always felt that the slave always has the choice to obey or not. There's consequences, but it's their choice.

Master Fire


Maybe that's because according to certain definitions and approaches denial is that very thing: an experience which is unconscious and by definition defended against by denying it absolutely.
I am just owning up to becoming aware of what I had been doing. And possible, by the time I had become aware of self-denial I had been doing it for too long. And perhaps also that in defining myself as slave, by consent, at that toime and having as far as was possible no limits, I had at first experienced that self-denial as comfortable.



Prinsexx -> RE: The cage of self-denial (3/12/2009 1:20:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sparkyRBF

  I also think being appreciated for selflessness helps encourage it as well.



Thank you so much for your good wishes also.
Yes. Appreciation at times is all things. Thank you for reminding me of that.



Prinsexx -> RE: The cage of self-denial (3/12/2009 1:28:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkwind

i just wonder, is it really self denial alone, or in some way making ourselves indispensable, bolstering a position where such action isn't actually necessary? That, or the denial being in some way a form of self inflicted punishment for behaviours only we see as wrong, or unwarranted.

i lived for a long time in a place of self denial, and i personally think that came about as a result of losing a sense of worth in an emotionally abusive relationship, a place from which i tried to make myself at once both invisible and indispensable. Invisible efficiency!



And yes also: I can now see, how despite the hope that O had stopped transferring those feeling from past abuse, onto the situation, perhaps I had. Because I also had yearned in those past abusive situations for love and had thought that if I made myself indispensable, by doing more and more and more, I would get attention, get cared for and eventually loved, which would have been the end of abuse. Love and abuse were crossed over in those partners.
But deeper still. I had begun to forfeit the right to make the distinction between giving and acts of self-denial.
Jeeeeeeeeez this is deep for breakfast time.




Prinsexx -> RE: The cage of self-denial (3/12/2009 1:30:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: persephonee

Prinnnnieeeee.....good to see you back to your "real" name...(never really liked the other one).....



Persephoneeeeeeeeeeeee whoppppppppppeeeeeeeeeee
yes good to be back!



eyesopened -> RE: The cage of self-denial (3/12/2009 4:29:18 AM)

I think it's a good idea to delve deep into the motive behind self-denial.  Is it really "giving" or a case of martyrdom?  My own mother lives to be the martyr, in the hopes that it will elevate her to Sainthood and eventual Veneration.  When the veneration doesn't happen she gets angry.  I love my mother with all my heart and am grateful for still having her on this earth but that one trait bugs the crap outta me.

There was an "Aha" moment in my life when I found myself doing the same.  I immersed myself in the roles of mother and employee and nobody seemed to notice or care that I had performed all the miracles necessary for Sainthood!  The bastards!  Then the omygawdi'mbecomingmymother! snapped me out of it.

My needs are my responsibility.  I can only truly serve if I am happy and healthy and to deny myself is not the path to either and I will fail on all counts.  It is my responsibility to take the time necessary even if its just an hour a day to serve myself.  And how would self-denial serve my Master when it is me He chose, not some empty shell?



IrishMist -> RE: The cage of self-denial (3/12/2009 4:51:58 AM)

quote:

For s-types... have you ever been in submission and felt that you were denying yourself?

Perhaps, to avoid misunderstandings, I should first ask you specifically what you mean by 'in submission'?

If you mean "have you ever been in a relationship and denied yourself", then the answer is yes.
If instead, you mean something else; then I would have to wait before answering.




DesFIP -> RE: The cage of self-denial (3/12/2009 6:03:22 AM)

I was negated in my marriage. As was The Man in his. We have neither of us sought to negate each other in this relationship. He doesn't feel that it elevates him to lower me. One of the first things he made me do was talk to someone new every day while looking them in the eye. I had become invisible and had sought to stay that way, feeling that I was less likely to be verbally attacked if unnoticed.

The way you don't become negated is by not picking someone who wants you to be a cipher, by not picking someone who feels threatened by you when you are at your strongest. You picked a man who did feel threatened by you, who could only feel himself strong if he made you weak. Why do you pick men like this?



LaTigresse -> RE: The cage of self-denial (3/12/2009 6:55:20 AM)

Self denial is something many women, and a few men, are taught is a good thing. To place another before ourselves. To not be selfish.

Many of us fought it from the beginning because serving others was never our nature. It creates a terrible conflict when we are constantly reminded "it is bad to be selfish" "It is good to give until it hurts".

For some, they never win that battle and give until all that is left is an empty shell of a person, often bitter and blaming, in self denial. Others learn balance.

I can only imagine it would be much more difficult for a submissive person to find that balance.



agirl -> RE: The cage of self-denial (3/12/2009 7:30:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx


My questions are:
For s-types... have you ever been in submission and felt that you were denying yourself?
For d-types...are you aware when or if you impose a 'cage' or expect your s type(s) to keep shtumm, keep there heads down and put up and serve?




No, I don't ever feel I'm denying myself because, well, I don't deny myself anything. In my relationship, I'm the selfish person. I tend to think of myself first.

If I'm denied anything it's because M says * Nope*. I've never had to subjugate the things I'd like FOR him and he's the main instigator for me having things I'd like. I don't have to think about his needs or put him first because he's perfectly capable of arranging that for himself. I'm free to think of myself because if he wants anything he just pipes up and says so.

As for M, he didn't take me on to *serve* him. He doesn't need anyone to do that. He'd be extremely bothered if he thought I was depleting myself because of him. His aim is quite the opposite.

Having said that , there are times when he absolutely DOES expect me to *put up and shut up*...and as much as that might make me chew my tongue, I could never say he was unreasonable in his expectations.

agirl



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