Ocean life headed toward extinction?

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

Ocean life headed toward extinction?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> Ocean life headed toward extinction?

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Ocean life headed toward extinction? - 3/10/2009 9:05:02 PM

Hippiekinkster

Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline

This might not be a good thing... downright scary, in fact...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7936137.stm

And, no, you Greenhouse gas/CO2 scoffers, I'm not going to explain either pH or logs to you.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

Profile

Post #: 1

RE: Ocean life headed toward extinction? - 3/11/2009 9:22:28 AM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline

I really doubt that Man made CO2 emissions are solely resposible for this.

While I fully am aware that if the sea dies, everything dies, so of course this is nothing to take lightly, but it didn't die when the meteor fell and created Crater Lake, nor after any of the massive volcanic eruptions throughout history.

I've read similar things in the past, some of them amount to accounts of commercial fishermen reporting that certain species' are getting rare, therefore hard to harvest. This has been going on for some time.

The other issue is that right now with the world ecomony pretty much FUBARed, this is not the time for drastic action. Any positive results would take decades or maybe even centuries to accomplish. Of course you have to start somewhere, but right now ? Whatever the human biomass' impact on this acidity, it was not accomplished in one day, and neither will any corrective efforts.

Another point (HK youmight want to bite on this one, mybe not) is the massive amount of heat that we produce in a modern society. This is noit a hijack because that is how most of the CO2 is produced, at least our portion of it. Everything we do is exothermic. Even when we cool something we produce heat. When we pump heat out of our living space in the summer, there is not only heat moved, but also produced. This has to add up to something, and it's probably not good. You can feel it when you drive from out in the stix into the city with the windows open. It is significant.

This not a trivial issue, and that is exactly why we need more reliable data on just how significant our impact is on the environment, before we go crippling our industry trying to accomplish what might be impossible.

In other words if we found a new way to generate electricity, and produce no greenhouse gases, just how many BTU of heat are we putting into the environment ? Right now I think by careful analysis we could get a pretty good ballpark figure based on our comsumption of fossil fuel. Just what is burned, discounting all that is used for lubricants, floor tile and so forth. (of course counted would be the heat produced during the production of those goods)

You need good data to formulate good solutions. You might have a factory down the street belching out hot gases, possibly including the dreaded sulfur trioxide and who knows what, of course with it's share of CO2, and they call for air pollution reduction in lawnmowers. We need solutions that fit the problems. And don't even get me started on the buying and selling of carbon credits ........

T

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

Profile

Post #: 2

RE: Ocean life headed toward extinction? - 3/11/2009 10:19:39 AM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

Don't worry about it. We'll just eat more hamburgers.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Profile

Post #: 3

RE: Ocean life headed toward extinction? - 3/11/2009 10:23:20 AM

sugarpixi

Posts: 25
Joined: 3/10/2009
From: Fredericksburg, VA
Status: offline

It's an interesting article, for sure..
Although I'm not totally shocked by it because it's already known that 90%ish of all life that has existed here on Earth is already extinct.
Which is funny when you think about it because there's still so many creatures that have yet to be discovered, especially in the deepest and darkest areas of the oceans.
:)

_____________________________

-Pixi

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

Profile

Post #: 4

RE: Ocean life headed toward extinction? - 3/11/2009 2:47:19 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

Well, this isn't about the natural and inevitable extinction of species. This is about the largest habitat on earth potentially becoming inhospitable to life of any kind.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sugarpixi

Although I'm not totally shocked by it because it's already known that 90%ish of all life that has existed here on Earth is already extinct.

(in reply to sugarpixi)

Profile

Post #: 5

RE: Ocean life headed toward extinction? - 3/11/2009 2:56:24 PM

SteelofUtah

Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Don't worry about it. We'll just eat more hamburgers.

I can Haz Cheezeburger?

Sorry I could not help it.

Steel

_____________________________

Just Steel
Resident Therapeutic Metallurgist
The Steel Warm-Up © ™
For the Uber Posters
Thanks for the Grammatical support : ) ~ Term

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Profile

Post #: 6

RE: Ocean life headed toward extinction? - 3/11/2009 7:33:44 PM

RainydayNE

Posts: 978
Joined: 10/21/2008
Status: offline

90% of life that has existed here is extinct because the planet has been around so long. i don't think that necessarily means anything at all, as far as whether or not something like THIS is caused by the activity of man.

(in reply to SteelofUtah)

Profile

Post #: 7

RE: Ocean life headed toward extinction? - 3/11/2009 8:02:26 PM

jlf1961

Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

While I fully am aware that if the sea dies, everything dies, so of course this is nothing to take lightly, but it didn't die when the meteor fell and created Crater Lake, nor after any of the massive volcanic eruptions throughout history.

Crater Lake is a caldera lake located in the U.S. state of Oregon. It is the main feature of Crater Lake National Park and famous for its deep blue color and water clarity. The lake partly fills a nearly 4,000 foot (1,220 m) deep caldera that was formed around 5,677 (± 150) BC by the collapse of the volcano Mount Mazama.

And while you are partially correct, I must point out that at the present rate, human industry pumps out more greenhouse gases per year than all the major eruptions since St. Helens.

Personally, considering the significant drop in the salinity of the North Atlantic, I dont think we will have to worry about the acidity of the oceans, the oceanic conveyor currents that regulate global temperature will fail before that.

Funny thing, global warming, once there is too much fresh water flooding the oceans, the currents that help move warm air north fail, so the hot water stays around the equator, and cold water stays north or south of the equator.

The result is that the northern latitudes and southern latitudes discover the wonders of an ICE AGE while the Equatorial latitudes discover the wonders of a heat wave and drought.

The wonderful thing about all of this is that it will happen faster than humans can adapt, so eventually 2/3rds of the human population will die from hunger, drought, famine, and wars between countries fighting for resources.

Now, considering that in the near future I will be putting up a wind turbine and solar panels, if such an event happens prior to my death, I will be more than ready.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Profile

Post #: 8

RE: Ocean life headed toward extinction? - 3/11/2009 8:27:41 PM

PapaJohnQ

Posts: 24
Joined: 2/28/2009
Status: offline

I luvs all dis talk 'bout CO2. I 'member as a kid watching CO2 falling out ta da sky. A hunter and a fisher, I remember reading in a state publication over 50 years ago that the acid levels in the "sweetwater" lakes had risen to such an extent that fish no longer lived there any more. I was proud when the world wide conspiracy to end walking produced internal combustion engine exhaust systems specifically designed to put more CO2 into the atmosphere because I knew George, and John and Thom, our founding fathers had created a system which was not only right for Ameriky, but for the world, and that our politicians knew best how to create a healthy life for us. I was filled with joy when the powers that be felled our trees, ploughed our grass land and created the dust bowl so that we could sell more Hoovers to house wives. (Subs collared by a building.) I shared in the joy when we built bungaloes on the farm land, cut more trees, to create new farms.

And some folks think lemmings are dumb!

(in reply to jlf1961)

Profile

Post #: 9

RE: Ocean life headed toward extinction? - 3/11/2009 8:43:04 PM

Hippiekinkster

Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline

PapaJohnCreech: "...I remember reading in a state publication over 50 years ago..."

Funny, you don't look that young.

Love your writing style. Peace Out.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to PapaJohnQ)

Profile

Post #: 10

RE: Ocean life headed toward extinction? - 3/12/2009 10:34:50 PM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline

jlf, I wonder from whence you got such an edusation. You have pointed me a few times.

You say industry contributes more greenhouse gases. OK, in the distant past though there was alot more of it fom natural sources. Also, how does acual manufacturing figure in, like in relation to cars ? These thoughts have gone though my head thinking about massive traffic jams cause by the futility in mankind's attempts at rational thought. They attack cars for greenhouse gses as they passed by belching factories. I used the past tense because as we no longer do much manufacturing here, we must be one of the "greenest" countries around.

However, one of my assertionsis that on a global scale, it matters not where from it comes. Everything made in China, well China is still on Earth last I heard. Note that China notably and a few other manufacturing centers around the globe were exempted from plenty of treaties dealing with this. Why do our politicians cripple us so ? And if they think the Chinese have any more stake in this than we do, such that it would warrant such exemptions, I would like to know where they ATTEMPTED to get an education.

And then there is a school of thought that presumes that we are a part of nature so whatever we do, for good or for bad is also a natural cause. Since we got here by natural means, whatever we do is by natural cause. I don't think many capitalists or indusrialists would be able to rationalize some of their decisions without embracing something like this.

However correcting this situation in a sane way does not include engineering our own extinction. Or maybe it must. Bigger answers, therefore bigger subsequent questions.

I swear (damn shit piss) that every time a question is answered, more questions pop up. Every discovery leads to a new mystery. No matter how educated one is, it seems the more I know at least, the more I find out that I don't know. I think we as a race know alot less about quite a few things than we are aware, or in some cases are willing to admit.

I mean, do we contribute more or less than 50% to this problem or not ? Answers could be out there, but I think the right answer will be hard to find. Who in the heck could have such data, especially trustable data ?

That is the problem. I am not saying I dasagree, but I am not saying that I agree. I have no higher ground on which to stand, nobody does. I also stand by my assertion that we are doing something simply by our production of heat, even with total disregard to greenhouse gases. I think this point is grossley under studied. But then that's me.

But of course then we have a direct result, that of using and discarding massive BTUs of heat, and then of course compounded by the greenhouse effect. A double whammy. How are we expected to fix this ?

Personally, I think we need to get ourseelves healthy again economy wise, and then begin to deal with these problems. These problems did not happen overnight and neither will the new Rome be built in a day. But that is another subject.

Really, are there actual figures somewhere on how much we contribute to this problem vs how much nature itself does ? How would one even go about getting such data ? Analysis of our fuel and other consumption wielded against natural occurances ? When a volcano erupts in a big way I doubt someone is there holding a flow meter over it, they are most likely in lava getting killed and their equipment melted, therefore there is some doubt always, when it comes to these scientific estimates. Science in the true sense is usually based on something that is directly measurable at best, but I don't see how certain things can even be indirectly measurable.

I mean really, can someone watch a volcano erupt from a safe vantage point with binoculars or whatever and come up with a valid estimate of it's output ?

T

(in reply to jlf1961)

Profile

Post #: 11

RE: Ocean life headed toward extinction? - 3/13/2009 1:15:58 AM

Hippiekinkster

Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline

The Planet (and us evolved monkeys, H.Sapiens sapiens) might be even more fucked thatn we thought.
http://my.att.net/s/editorial.dll?pnum=1&bfromind=7401&eeid=6438713&_sitecat=1505&dcatid=0&eetype=article&render=y&ac=-2&ck=&ch=ne&rg=blsadstrgt&_lid=332&_lnm=todays+guide+news+international

But of course, GCC is a "religion" (Merc's term) (I think he should stick with mortgages or however he puts bread on the table, and let the Scientists do the Science

) invented by all these hundreds of Scientists to convert the US to Socialism. Uh-huh.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

Profile

Post #: 12

RE: Ocean life headed toward extinction? - 3/14/2009 12:42:57 AM

jlf1961

Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
Really, are there actual figures somewhere on how much we contribute to this problem vs how much nature itself does ? How would one even go about getting such data ? Analysis of our fuel and other consumption wielded against natural occurances ? When a volcano erupts in a big way I doubt someone is there holding a flow meter over it, they are most likely in lava getting killed and their equipment melted, therefore there is some doubt always, when it comes to these scientific estimates. Science in the true sense is usually based on something that is directly measurable at best, but I don't see how certain things can even be indirectly measurable.

I mean really, can someone watch a volcano erupt from a safe vantage point with binoculars or whatever and come up with a valid estimate of it's output ?

T

Actually, a flow meter is not needed.

Spectral Analysis of a ash plum from a distance will give you a fairly accurate measure of the gases being released. Sensors placed on the mountain also do this, before the tremors and other elements of the eruption destroy the units.

The USGS Volcano Observatory website has considerable information concerning CO2 and SO2 emissions from St. Helens and other areas of interest.

By the way, SO2 or sulfur dioxide is the volcanic gas that causes global cooling, it reflects sunlight.

As for the statements I made about the oceanic current conveyor, that is pretty straight forward, if you google it you can get a lot of information.

As far as global warming and the rising acidity of the oceans, I can point you to the recent Ice shelf collapses of the Antarctic ice sheet, the shrinking arctic ice sheet, and shrinking glaciers world wide. There are a number of websites maintained by colleges concerning this.

NOAA at one time had a website that detailed the dropping salinity level of the north atlantic, as did a couple of Universities in the UK.

The major problem is that, for all the awareness that has been generated concerning global warming and 'Carbon Footprints,' people will still drive three blocks to a store, or skip using public transportation all in the name of convenience.

Worse yet is the fact that there has been the technology available to end the use of fossil fuels since 1944. The Germans developed an efficient Hydrogen Peroxide burning engine for the type XXII and XXIII Uboats.

There was one major drawback, the exhaust consisted of distilled water and oxygen. Clean Water? Clean Oxygen? the anti-polluting qualities of such power systems is too horrible to even think about! (yes I am being sarcastic, but it is directed to the powers that be, not anyone on the boards)

Termyn8or, we have disagreed in the past, however, I think we may be in agreement here. The simple truth is that humans have a much higher impact on the planet than nature does. Would it not be better if we, as a race, got our stuff together and started cleaning up the mess we made?

Or do we do what has been done in the past? Leave it to our children to clean up.

By the way, the latest class of coastal patrol submarines commissioned by the German Navy is using the old H2O2 technology, and actually use the oxygen generated to both replenish air in the boat and fresh drinking water......

Rumor has it that they are actually quieter than a nuke powered sub.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Profile

Post #: 13

RE: Ocean life headed toward extinction? - 3/14/2009 5:07:56 AM

MrRodgers

Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

I really doubt that Man made CO2 emissions are solely resposible for this.

While I fully am aware that if the sea dies, everything dies, so of course this is nothing to take lightly, but it didn't die when the meteor fell and created Crater Lake, nor after any of the massive volcanic eruptions throughout history.

I've read similar things in the past, some of them amount to accounts of commercial fishermen reporting that certain species' are getting rare, therefore hard to harvest. This has been going on for some time.

The other issue is that right now with the world ecomony pretty much FUBARed, this is not the time for drastic action. Any positive results would take decades or maybe even centuries to accomplish. Of course you have to start somewhere, but right now ? Whatever the human biomass' impact on this acidity, it was not accomplished in one day, and neither will any corrective efforts.

Another point (HK youmight want to bite on this one, mybe not) is the massive amount of heat that we produce in a modern society. This is noit a hijack because that is how most of the CO2 is produced, at least our portion of it. Everything we do is exothermic. Even when we cool something we produce heat. When we pump heat out of our living space in the summer, there is not only heat moved, but also produced. This has to add up to something, and it's probably not good. You can feel it when you drive from out in the stix into the city with the windows open. It is significant.

This not a trivial issue, and that is exactly why we need more reliable data on just how significant our impact is on the environment, before we go crippling our industry trying to accomplish what might be impossible.

In other words if we found a new way to generate electricity, and produce no greenhouse gases, just how many BTU of heat are we putting into the environment ? Right now I think by careful analysis we could get a pretty good ballpark figure based on our comsumption of fossil fuel. Just what is burned, discounting all that is used for lubricants, floor tile and so forth. (of course counted would be the heat produced during the production of those goods)

You need good data to formulate good solutions. You might have a factory down the street belching out hot gases, possibly including the dreaded sulfur trioxide and who knows what, of course with it's share of CO2, and they call for air pollution reduction in lawnmowers. We need solutions that fit the problems. And don't even get me started on the buying and selling of carbon credits ........

T

Let's accept for arguments sake that the heat we generate for our households is a factor in global temperature rise even if dispersed it is still an addition to the over all heat.

Now just imagine that with all of this CO2 we are likewise adding to the atmosphere that is now trapping almost all of the SUN'S HEAT. This is BILLIONS/Trillions more BTU's than anything man produces by heating his home or generating heat through the burning of fossil fuels.

This concept behind your post should now put you at the head of the line in getting us off all CO2 producing activity.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Profile

Post #: 14