RE: GOP Splits With Big Business (Full Version)

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RainydayNE -> RE: GOP Splits With Big Business (3/8/2009 11:07:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
However, I appreciate the Companies identified in the article need to have their failure rewarded with tax payer money provided by the this Administration and Congress. Can you blame them?  Who knows how long the Corporate Welfare for Failure Program undertaken by this Administration will continue.


Let me pose a hypothetical question: You are on a boat in the middle of the ocean. Somebody, either through stupidity or greed or any reason at all, puts a hole in the bottom of the boat. Do you think the proper response is to let the boat sink in order not to reward the person who put the hole in the boat? Or is the proper answer to patch up the hole and then worry about the proper punishment to the hole puncher?

No one wants to reward failure. But we are not in a case where letting the natrual, Darwinian forces of the market is going to fix things. If AIG fails, Joe's Insturance isn't going to step up to take up the slack. In the banking system crashes and burns, new banks aren't going to suddenly spring up to provide a meaningful alternative. In short, there is no way of letting those who deserve to sink at this moment go down without going down with them.

There is definitly a place for takign steps against the sort of thing that brought us to this situation. However, that time is after the boat is patched and no longer sinking fast. But when you're on a boat that is filling with water, I think arguing against bailing it out is not the best survival strategy.




nice post




corysub -> RE: GOP Splits With Big Business (3/8/2009 11:14:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RainydayNE

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
However, I appreciate the Companies identified in the article need to have their failure rewarded with tax payer money provided by the this Administration and Congress. Can you blame them?  Who knows how long the Corporate Welfare for Failure Program undertaken by this Administration will continue.


Let me pose a hypothetical question: You are on a boat in the middle of the ocean. Somebody, either through stupidity or greed or any reason at all, puts a hole in the bottom of the boat. Do you think the proper response is to let the boat sink in order not to reward the person who put the hole in the boat? Or is the proper answer to patch up the hole and then worry about the proper punishment to the hole puncher?

No one wants to reward failure. But we are not in a case where letting the natrual, Darwinian forces of the market is going to fix things. If AIG fails, Joe's Insturance isn't going to step up to take up the slack. In the banking system crashes and burns, new banks aren't going to suddenly spring up to provide a meaningful alternative. In short, there is no way of letting those who deserve to sink at this moment go down without going down with them.

There is definitly a place for takign steps against the sort of thing that brought us to this situation. However, that time is after the boat is patched and no longer sinking fast. But when you're on a boat that is filling with water, I think arguing against bailing it out is not the best survival strategy.




nice post


I agree... excellent post.   The patient is on the table and going flatline....it's not a time for the surgeon to repair a broken arm. 




MasterShake69 -> RE: GOP Splits With Big Business (3/9/2009 12:45:54 AM)


Lets say the boat is the Titanic and its got a large hole in it from an iceburg.  Do we spend lots of $$$$ on a losing effort to keep the boat afloat. ;)  Because any single patch job would not be able to keep her afloat until it were to reach port.  It would require several patch jobs over and over again costing well more then the ships worth.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
However, I appreciate the Companies identified in the article need to have their failure rewarded with tax payer money provided by the this Administration and Congress. Can you blame them?  Who knows how long the Corporate Welfare for Failure Program undertaken by this Administration will continue.


Let me pose a hypothetical question: You are on a boat in the middle of the ocean. Somebody, either through stupidity or greed or any reason at all, puts a hole in the bottom of the boat. Do you think the proper response is to let the boat sink in order not to reward the person who put the hole in the boat? Or is the proper answer to patch up the hole and then worry about the proper punishment to the hole puncher?

No one wants to reward failure. But we are not in a case where letting the natrual, Darwinian forces of the market is going to fix things. If AIG fails, Joe's Insturance isn't going to step up to take up the slack. In the banking system crashes and burns, new banks aren't going to suddenly spring up to provide a meaningful alternative. In short, there is no way of letting those who deserve to sink at this moment go down without going down with them.

There is definitly a place for takign steps against the sort of thing that brought us to this situation. However, that time is after the boat is patched and no longer sinking fast. But when you're on a boat that is filling with water, I think arguing against bailing it out is not the best survival strategy.






VanessaChaland -> RE: GOP Splits With Big Business (3/9/2009 1:24:54 AM)

 True. But in this case that "boat" is the United States of America. Do we just let her sink due to the massive cost? Of course not. Both parties are at fault, corporate greed is at fault. 

Of course the fact that we have had a GOP president for 20 of the last 28 years is part of the fault. Right wingers and funies like to forget that little fact. They also like to pretend that congress was controlled by Dems for the last 30 years, but thats also not true. Really, they are not able to accept any blame and need to grow up. :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterShake69
Lets say the boat is the Titanic and its got a large hole in it from an iceburg.  Do we spend lots of $$$$ on a losing effort to keep the boat afloat. ;)  Because any single patch job would not be able to keep her afloat until it were to reach port.  It would require several patch jobs over and over again costing well more then the ships worth.




SpinnerofTales -> RE: GOP Splits With Big Business (3/9/2009 4:09:51 AM)

quote:

Lets say the boat is the Titanic and its got a large hole in it from an iceburg. Do we spend lots of $$$$ on a losing effort to keep the boat afloat. ;) Because any single patch job would not be able to keep her afloat until it were to reach port. It would require several patch jobs over and over again costing well more then the ships worth.
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterShake69


Yes, Shake..we spend what we have to spend on patching it because if we don't a whole lot of people who had no responsibility for the hole in the boat are going to drown if we don't. Sometimes you have to view a problem in terms of solutions instead of assigning blame.





corysub -> RE: GOP Splits With Big Business (3/9/2009 4:45:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

Lets say the boat is the Titanic and its got a large hole in it from an iceburg. Do we spend lots of $$$$ on a losing effort to keep the boat afloat. ;) Because any single patch job would not be able to keep her afloat until it were to reach port. It would require several patch jobs over and over again costing well more then the ships worth.
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterShake69


Yes, Shake..we spend what we have to spend on patching it because if we don't Ita whole lot of people who had no responsibility for the hole in the boat are going to drown if we don't. Sometimes you have to view a problem in terms of solutions instead of assigning blame.




Well, thank you for your perspective...it almost sounds as if you crossed the aisle.  [:)]
It does seem that the ideologues here who attack Bush and continuing the big lie that he blamed Sadaam for being part of the 9/11 horror....never showing any words by the former President actually stating that as a case for "regime change".  Of course there are numerous instances of his
comments on contacts between terror organizations and the Sadaam government:

)Saddam Hussein has longstanding, direct and continuing ties to terrorist networks. Senior members of Iraq intelligence and al Qaeda have met at least eight times since the early 1990s. Iraq has sent bomb-making and document forgery experts to work with al Qaeda. Iraq has also provided al Qaeda with chemical and biological weapons training. And an al Qaeda operative was sent to Iraq several times in the late 1990s for help in aquiring poisons and gases. We also know that Iraq is harboring a terrorist network headed by a senior al Qaeda terrorist planner." - President's Radio Address, White House (2/8/2003)
 
"Saddam Hussein has longstanding, direct and continuing ties to terrorist networks. Senior members of Iraqi intelligence and al Qaeda have met at least eight times since the early 1990s. Iraq has sent bomb-making and document forgery experts to work with al Qaeda. Iraq has also provided al Qaeda with chemical and biological weapons training. We also know that Iraq is harboring a terrorist network, headed by a senior al Qaeda terrorist planner." - President Bush: "World Can Rise to This Moment", White House (2/6/2003)

"We will consult, but let there be no misunderstanding: If Saddam Hussein does not fully disarm for the safety of our people, and for the peace of the world, we will lead a coalition to disarm him."  State of the Union, 2003
 
These are the words of a President who is not an "accomodator" as we have now in the White House.  These are the words of a President who spoke straight from the shoulder, not elequently as Barack can deliver a speech that brings chills up seasoned reporters legs, but "truth".  There was never a time when George Bush spoke out of one side of his mouth while his Chief of Staff and other drones continued the most radical social agenda this country has seen since the founders declared they would no longer bow to the King of England.  Where are the lies, the untrue statements such as we see today, from distorting the number of people who will benefit from lower tax rates (including 45 million who today do not pay taxes), to raising his chin as he so often does so often, and says with such determination: "I will go through EVERY piece of legislation, line by line, and remove those...well..you know the rest of the story.  Instead he is going to sign yet another $400 billion government spending bill (our money) that includes 9,000 earmarks!  So much for truth in politics..so much for "change"....





Mercnbeth -> RE: GOP Splits With Big Business (3/9/2009 10:46:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterShake69
Lets say the boat is the Titanic and its got a large hole in it from an iceburg. Do we spend lots of $$$$ on a losing effort to keep the boat afloat. ;) Because any single patch job would not be able to keep her afloat until it were to reach port. It would require several patch jobs over and over again costing well more then the ships worth.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales
Yes, Shake..we spend what we have to spend on patching it because if we don't a whole lot of people who had no responsibility for the hole in the boat are going to drown if we don't. Sometimes you have to view a problem in terms of solutions instead of assigning blame.


Sure "spend what we have to"; why not apply the same logic to another shipping disaster more accurately affecting this crisis.

The Arizona sake just like the Titanic, except you can still see it. Why not on December 8th, 1941 spend all the resources possible to raise it, refit it, and get that old ship floating again versus spending the same money putting a modern destroyer class on the water to go to war? Keep the metaphor going - include in the salvage effort the removal and 'proper' burial of every innocent sailor victim. Who cares how much it costs or how many other lives are lost in the effort. The Arizona was a proud ship and no expense should be spared, no alternative reasoning or process considered.

So you have the banking crisis of today. Spend money on salvaging a system, the very one who is the target for accusations of corruption, mismanagement, usurious rates, unfair, and run by "opportunistic capitalists", or use the same money to build a new version. How this rationalization generates so many 'head bobs' from the same people who were complaining about it less than a year ago simply amazes me. Nothing better illustrates the 'faith based' agenda for this Administration and its policies. Were it anything else, if it weren't blind acceptance of dogma devoid of reason - there'd be an direct answer for the question; "how with this work?", instead of the rhetoric of 'faith' and belief currently being given in lieu of a specific plan inclusive of benchmarks.

The 'ship' is already on the bottom. Any salvage effort is counterproductive to moving forward and 'winning' a war. Every war has casualties, if CitiBank, AIG, GM, or Bank of America loom as large metaphorically as the Arizona they'll make great memorials to this era as the Arizona does to its era, still 'commissioned' while sitting on the bottom  of Pearl Harbor.




submaleinzona -> RE: GOP Splits With Big Business (3/9/2009 3:38:37 PM)

I was talking with my dad earlier today about the Great Depression and how bad it was.  He was telling me that it was up to 35% unemployment in the early years.  Bread lines, soup kitchens, "Hoovervilles."  That still seems far worse than what we're facing now, and yet, we're talking like the ship has already sunk? 

We're not finished yet. 

I don't blame the GOP as much as I would blame the professional economists who took over the ideological reins of that party and also heavily influenced the Democratic Party under pro-NAFTA Bill Clinton.  I'd give the Democrats credit for putting up resistance to NAFTA in the 1990s, but looking at what happened to James Traficant makes me think that the blue-collar Democrats are all but thoroughly defeated now.  They also treated Ralph Nader and Jerry Brown pretty shabbiliy, too, so I have absolutely no love for the Democrats whatsoever.  They're nothing but wolves in sheeps' clothing. 

Another thing my dad told me was that, before World War II, there was no "consumerism" to speak of, not as we know it today.  That may be something we'll have to give up in the coming years.  The days of the big shopping malls may be over.  A lot of things that sprung up during our generations of luxury and wanton consumerism may just fall by the wayside, meaning that people who hold jobs of "pet psychatrist" might have to find a real job.  (In fact, people will own fewer pets, so that will be fewer veterinarians, less pet food demand, etc.)  Anything to do with recreation or tourism will also fall in demand, as is the case here in Tucson where hotels and restaurants are reporting significant declines in customers.  I've also noticed that the grocery stores have devoted more shelf space to the cut-rate, generic products, indicating a higher demand for cheaper goods. 

My grandfather used to think that people who bought "Pet Rocks" were stupid.  He was right.  It's almost as if we've based our entire economy on selling "Pet Rocks," in a manner of speaking. 






Raiikun -> RE: GOP Splits With Big Business (3/9/2009 3:45:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Oh great, now I have to worry about the Dems being in bed with Big Business? Shit, I knew there was not much difference between the two parties. So basically Big Business is willing to support which ever party gives them the money?


Hehe, I never had any doubt this was the case.  Some people are just naive.




SpinnerofTales -> RE: GOP Splits With Big Business (3/9/2009 3:52:32 PM)

quote:

The 'ship' is already on the bottom. Any salvage effort is counterproductive to moving forward and 'winning' a war. Every war has casualties, if CitiBank, AIG, GM, or Bank of America loom as large metaphorically as the Arizona they'll make great memorials to this era as the Arizona does to its era, still 'commissioned' while sitting on the bottom of Pearl Harbor.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth


Well, far be it from me to break a good metaphor. But the ship hasn't sunk yet. We have a big damn hole in the boat, but we have had holes before and managed to get out of it without ripping down everything and starting from scratch.

Of course, if you have some hidden idea of how to rip it all down and build it up better from scratch, by all means share it. Because, frankly, all I hear being bandied about is isolationism. a dismantling of the societal safety net and a return to the good old days of J.P Morgan and his fellow robber barons.






DomKen -> RE: GOP Splits With Big Business (3/9/2009 3:53:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
The Arizona sake just like the Titanic, except you can still see it. Why not on December 8th, 1941 spend all the resources possible to raise it, refit it, and get that old ship floating again versus spending the same money putting a modern destroyer class on the water to go to war? Keep the metaphor going - include in the salvage effort the removal and 'proper' burial of every innocent sailor victim. Who cares how much it costs or how many other lives are lost in the effort. The Arizona was a proud ship and no expense should be spared, no alternative reasoning or process considered.

You really should know the details of the event in question before using it as an analogy. We didn't raise the Arizona for monetary reasons but because she was too badly damaged to be repaired. We did refloat 5 battleships and 2 cruisers that were sunk on Dec. 7. We did salvage much of the armament from the Arizona and Utah, another BB we chose not to refloat.




Raiikun -> RE: GOP Splits With Big Business (3/9/2009 4:02:40 PM)

Well, it just makes Merc's analogy simply as imperfect as Spinner's.

Let's add a "What-if" to Spinner's "What-if".

Let's say this boat was 2 miles from shore.  Patching the hole requires pulling parts from elsewhere in the boat, but each patch seems to instantly fall apart, as the boat continues to be more unstable.  Do you continue wasting your effort gutting the boat to continually repatch the boat, or give up and use your strength to swim to shore?




Mercnbeth -> RE: GOP Splits With Big Business (3/9/2009 4:35:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales
Well, far be it from me to break a good metaphor. But the ship hasn't sunk yet. We have a big damn hole in the boat, but we have had holes before and managed to get out of it without ripping down everything and starting from scratch.

Of course, if you have some hidden idea of how to rip it all down and build it up better from scratch, by all means share it. Because, frankly, all I hear being bandied about is isolationism. a dismantling of the societal safety net and a return to the good old days of J.P Morgan and his fellow robber barons.


Pumping a Trillion dollars into it may be keeping the stern out of the water, but it's sunk just the same. I have some experience running financial institutions, and with a Trillion dollars, I think I could put a plan of action out there with a better focus than the one this Trillion of spending bought. At minimum it would have a focus and a goal that would give the investors something to discuss and say other than; "I hope it works!", "We had to do something!", and "We have not seen the worst!" Come to think of it - I've yet to see anyone from this Administration say it will work; have you? They say "we have to struggle", "we've overcome in the past"; but "It WILL work!"? Nope - I guess they have their doubts in Washington too.

You see results and project conclusions what your limited viewpoint lets you see. You define any alternative as "dismantling of safety nets", and "good old days of JP Morgan" and "robber barons". Can't help you with that condition. The Administration seems to share your "no other possible solution" too; no wonder you support it so vehemently.

Yet - still no 'plan' only following old paths, and trying to either save a sinking ship or salvage a sunk on (your pick) instead of building something else. There are PLENTY of ideas in that regard. You just have to read sources other than those who agree with your position and have an open mind. One of the things you assume is that it requires tearing down the existing structure. Why? There are viable parts of these failed entities of great value to other entities; sell them.

The path of failure and defeatism expressed by this Administration is getting tiring. No investor in their right mind, corporate or individual, would buy into the economic conditions that this Administration has created.

As amusing as it is to see the exact same people who complained about 'corporate welfare', influence and favor being bought and sold in Washington, and political mismanagement now championing those same causes being done by this Administration; I'd much prefer to not be so amused. I'd prefer something other than continuing the Bush Stimulus II costing a Trillion dollars. I prefer money going to successful people and industries to invest in creating a modern financial institution. I think, and see, that the policy of rewarding failure only generates more and disincentives any success. As great as the Titanic was, it sank; bad design, bad management, the autopsy matters little to the people who died. As bad as it was to leave the Arizona and her crew on the bottom, it was the right thing to do. The problem with your 'solution' is that even if you managed to 'Raise the Titanic' - its still an antique and even if it is raised, it doesn't have a long life-line in the modern world. 




NeedToUseYou -> RE: GOP Splits With Big Business (3/9/2009 4:40:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
However, I appreciate the Companies identified in the article need to have their failure rewarded with tax payer money provided by the this Administration and Congress. Can you blame them?  Who knows how long the Corporate Welfare for Failure Program undertaken by this Administration will continue.


Let me pose a hypothetical question: You are on a boat in the middle of the ocean. Somebody, either through stupidity or greed or any reason at all, puts a hole in the bottom of the boat. Do you think the proper response is to let the boat sink in order not to reward the person who put the hole in the boat? Or is the proper answer to patch up the hole and then worry about the proper punishment to the hole puncher?

No one wants to reward failure. But we are not in a case where letting the natrual, Darwinian forces of the market is going to fix things. If AIG fails, Joe's Insturance isn't going to step up to take up the slack. In the banking system crashes and burns, new banks aren't going to suddenly spring up to provide a meaningful alternative. In short, there is no way of letting those who deserve to sink at this moment go down without going down with them.

There is definitly a place for takign steps against the sort of thing that brought us to this situation. However, that time is after the boat is patched and no longer sinking fast. But when you're on a boat that is filling with water, I think arguing against bailing it out is not the best survival strategy.




LOL, I take my big knife jab the idiot in the throat that made the hole and shove is head in the hole. It will hold until we make landfall. Or if you prefer, I take my knife jab him the throat, skin him, and use his flesh to seal the the leak. wittling his bones into make shift nails. And being here on the boat with out food, we feast on the dearly departeds flesh, while have a blood washed orgy.

Arrive on paradise island, live happily ever after.

Crazy scenarios get crazy answers.




awmslave -> RE: GOP Splits With Big Business (3/9/2009 4:44:54 PM)

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: awmslave

The article (intentionally?) puts wrong emphasis. GOP is not against businesses but they oppose corruption: rewarding failure, making profits private losses public, departure from market principles etc... the usual arguments against Bush-Obama approach.

Owner59:

Where you been that last 8 years? How was the weather there?

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama


We learn from the past but we live in the present.




SpinnerofTales -> RE: GOP Splits With Big Business (3/9/2009 7:34:01 PM)

quote:

I prefer money going to successful people and industries to invest in creating a modern financial institution. I think, and see, that the policy of rewarding failure only generates more and disincentives any success.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Just two questions: How much collateral damage are you willing to accept to make sure that only the "worthy" get helped? Do you really believe that only the greedy, stupid and those deserving of destruction are going to go down with the ship?




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: GOP Splits With Big Business (3/9/2009 11:30:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou


LOL, I take my big knife jab the idiot in the throat that made the hole and shove is head in the hole. It will hold until we make landfall. Or if you prefer, I take my knife jab him the throat, skin him, and use his flesh to seal the the leak. wittling his bones into make shift nails. And being here on the boat with out food, we feast on the dearly departeds flesh, while have a blood washed orgy.



Mmmm..... nothin' personal, but in case you were thinking of ever asking me to go out fishing with you someday, I think I'm going to be busy that week. Hope you understand.




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