How much does the American government OWE it's citizens?

How much does the American government OWE it's citizens? (Full Version)

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MzMia -> How much does the American government OWE it's citizens? (2/27/2009 8:16:52 PM)
How much does the American government owe it's citizens? This question is hard for me to phrase, but I mean what does the "government" owe us? Should the government give us welfare/unemployment benefits for months, years, a lifetime? Should the government help out large numbers of people on the brink of foreclosure? Should the government feed, clothe and give shelter to those that are homeless? Should the government provide extensive free health care for everyone? Should the government pay for all those that qualify to go to college? Should the government provide more cradle to the grave benefits to everyone? These are questions that many of us are pondering, and these are issues that seem to be facing America.

OneMoreWaste -> RE: How much does the American government OWE it's citizens? (2/27/2009 8:20:45 PM)
Are we speaking Constitutionally, or in terms of recompense for the 30-odd percent of my salary they're skimming today?

MzMia -> RE: How much does the American government OWE it's citizens? (2/27/2009 8:24:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OneMoreWaste Are we speaking Constitutionally, or in terms of recompense for the 30-odd percent of my salary they're skimming today? Great question! I mean in terms of many of the programs that President Obama is suggesting and the many cries from the "right" that we could turn into a socialist country. I am mainly speaking of what is in"our future" and programs that may be coming our way.

SummerWind -> RE: How much does the American government OWE it's citizens? (2/27/2009 9:01:12 PM)
Nobody owes me anything.....The moment you feel you are owed anything by anyone you're done.

SpinnerofTales -> RE: How much does the American government OWE it's citizens? (2/27/2009 9:46:12 PM)
These are all very deep and important questions, Mia..and I won't claim to have all the answers however, I do have (as I'm sure comes to no surprise to anyone) on the implications of the questions quote: Should the government give us welfare/unemployment benefits for months, years, a lifetime? If your answer is yes, then you have to accept that that will be paid for by those of us who are working and making an income. You also have to accept that there will be mistakes, abuses and such within that system so that not all of the money will go to help those who truly need or "deserve" that help. If your answer is no, you have to accept that there are single mothers and children who will go to bed hungry, that there are people who lost their jobs through no fault of their own who will lose their homes and sink into a state where it will be difficult if not impossible for them to rejoin productive society. quote: Should the government help out large numbers of people on the brink of foreclosure? If your answer is yes, you must accept that some of the money given out will be given to people who were irresponsible, greedy and bought expensive houses that they had no chance of paying off. If you say no, you have to accept that foreclosures will continue to rise, housing prices in general will suffer because of it, the economic crisis will be extended and the pain it causes deepened. quote: Should the government feed, clothe and give shelter to those that are homeless? If yes, then there will be a price. Just as with welfare there will be abuse. Just as with any other social programs, there will be a price paid by those of us who are producing to be given to those who are, for reasons of fault or circumstance, not producing. If no, one must be willing to walk streets seeing filthy, ragged, hopeless people sleeping on sidewalks, begging for food or rummaging through dumpsters with very little chance to rejoin the productive community. quote: Should the government provide extensive free health care for everyone? The yes on this side entails costs, increased government bureaucracy and a possible deterioration of . in general. If no, one should at least be willing to accept that a great number of people, through no fault of their own, are going to are going to suffer pain and a great number will die for the simple reason that they cannot afford health care. quote: Should the government pay for all those that qualify to go to college? Again there is the issue of cost (not an unimportant concern) and the possible deterioration of higher education. The no side could entail a populace ill equipped for the challenges of the 21st century world which will lead to America becoming less economically competitive, innovative and eventually lead to decline in general It could also result in a large number of people being forced to live with far less prospect for success than their ability would allow because their finances do not. Again, these are difficult questions. The problem is, rather than coming up with difficult answers, both sides of the question seem to want to solve complexities with bumper sticker slogans. Thank you for the thought provoker.

MzMia -> RE: How much does the American government OWE it's citizens? (2/27/2009 9:58:06 PM)
Thank you for the well thought out answers Spinner. These are questions I am sure many of us are asking each other these days. As someone that is fortunate to be working, struggling, and in the middle class, the idea of my taxes going up and remaining high for the rest of my life is not something to look forward to. But then, I think we should have "safety nets". We are certainly witnessing an "end to an era", similar to the end that occurred in 1929.

Sir Daddy -> RE: How much does the American government OWE it's citizens? (2/27/2009 10:07:14 PM)
"It was once said that the moral test of government is how that government treats those who are in the dawn of life, the children; those who are in the twilight of life, the elderly; and those who are in the shadows of life, the sick, the needy and the handicapped." - Hubert H Humphrey I think there's a lot of truth to that assertion.

DomKen -> RE: How much does the American government OWE it's citizens? (2/27/2009 11:07:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MzMia How much does the American government owe it's citizens? This question is hard for me to phrase, but I mean what does the "government" owe us? Should the government give us welfare/unemployment benefits for months, years, a lifetime? That's several different questions. Unemplyment insurance is just that insurance. The premiums are paid by employers and the benefits are intended to allow people to find new jobs in the case of sudden layoffs. Seems to work very well. As to welfare and lifetime benefits that is a very complicated issue. Encouraging dependency on the state is unwise but we have serious issues with our economy becoming increasingly efficient and fewer workers being needed which may result in a permanent under/unemployed unskilled class which is bad for society in a host of other ways. quote: Should the government help out large numbers of people on the brink of foreclosure? As a general principle, no. In this particular instance if we don't the effects will be unacceptable and we may simply have to do something about, at least, the marginal loans. quote: Should the government feed, clothe and give shelter to those that are homeless? Most people who are homeless have chemical dependency or mental health issues and it has always struck me that society should strive to care for those on its fringes sufficiently that they at least have a roof over their heads. quote: Should the government provide extensive free health care for everyone? Should the government pay for all those that qualify to go to college? These strike me as society investing in its future and seems to work remarkably well for the rest of the first world and its long past time we try them here. quote: Should the government provide more cradle to the grave benefits to everyone? No.

NeedToUseYou -> RE: How much does the American government OWE it's citizens? (2/27/2009 11:30:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MzMia How much does the American government owe it's citizens? This question is hard for me to phrase, but I mean what does the "government" owe us? Should the government give us welfare/unemployment benefits for months, years, a lifetime? No, the current mandatory insurance, for employers employing I think over 5 people is more than sufficient. Should the government help out large numbers of people on the brink of foreclosure? No. Should the government feed, clothe and give shelter to those that are homeless? The should provide shelters and basic healthy food, but not furnish them with apartments, or houses, and provide a regular lifestyle to them. Should the government provide extensive free health care for everyone? No, why because the current massive social programs we have already need fixed or else they will go broke eventually. They are showing with Social Security and Medicare that they will ignore a problem until it becomes a possible disaster. Why don't we fix what we got before we add another unknown quantity to the pile. Should the government pay for all those that qualify to go to college? Absolutely Not. Should the government provide more cradle to the grave benefits to everyone? No. We have more than enough already. These are questions that many of us are pondering, and these are issues that seem to be facing America. A question you should ask is what is the maximum amount of money you are willing to take from a working person to provide all those cough "services". For me, I think 10% is about right in total to the fedeal government, that I would be okay with. An additional ten percent total, from all other taxes. So, me I'd say 20% cumulative tax rate, should be max. I think if all those things you proposed were implemented it would cost easily 50 percent+ in cumulative taxes. I simply wouldn't work at that point, as I'd never get anywhere.

MrRodgers -> RE: How much does the American government OWE it's citizens? (2/28/2009 12:41:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MzMia quote: ORIGINAL: OneMoreWaste Are we speaking Constitutionally, or in terms of recompense for the 30-odd percent of my salary they're skimming today? Great question! I mean in terms of many of the programs that President Obama is suggesting and the many cries from the "right" that we could turn into a socialist country. I am mainly speaking of what is in"our future" and programs that may be coming our way. Fact of the matter is, we are already a socialist country and in many respects have been for 70 + years. Do I need to list yet again in how many areas ? Problem is, with the bailouts some still don't get the message that we have socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor. Let's ALL get off this note OK ? Federal spending, deficit spending...it's a way of life now. While the repubs have espoused the contrary, it is they as well as anybody in history that have violated the precincts of conservatism.

blacksword404 -> RE: How much does the American government OWE it's citizens? (2/28/2009 4:05:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MzMia quote: ORIGINAL: OneMoreWaste Are we speaking Constitutionally, or in terms of recompense for the 30-odd percent of my salary they're skimming today? Great question! I mean in terms of many of the programs that President Obama is suggesting and the many cries from the "right" that we could turn into a socialist country. I am mainly speaking of what is in"our future" and programs that may be coming our way. Well if you have a retirement account they may want to take that. http://likecoffeecups.blogspot.com/2009/02/hold-on-to-your-401k-and-ira-government.html

corysub -> RE: How much does the American government OWE it's citizens? (2/28/2009 5:06:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MzMia How much does the American government owe it's citizens? This question is hard for me to phrase, but I mean what does the "government" owe us? Should the government give us welfare/unemployment benefits for months, years, a lifetime? Should the government help out large numbers of people on the brink of foreclosure? Should the government feed, clothe and give shelter to those that are homeless? Should the government provide extensive free health care for everyone? Should the government pay for all those that qualify to go to college? Should the government provide more cradle to the grave benefits to everyone? These are questions that many of us are pondering, and these are issues that seem to be facing America. That would be wonderful for all of us MzMia if the government "earned any money". EVERY spending program, good, bad, or criminal, is paid for by the working people in this country with taxes, and their credit worthiness on the planet with foreign buyers of our debt. If the government would pay my mortgage great...but it's my neighbors taxes that are going to provide the funds. I worked my ass off to send my kids to college...and they worked at school as well...where is it written that the "pursuit of happiness" is defined as being born in the country or actually just being in the country since illegals qualify for aid too... Every American would support people who are truly in need... and many of us do through local charities and churches.. that's not even an issue. It's those that make it a lifestyle that is the issue..

littlewonder -> RE: How much does the American government OWE it's citizens? (2/28/2009 5:20:26 AM)
Nothing. I don't look at life as people owing me anything, including my government. The minute I start thinking in those terms, I become bitter and jaded and who wants to live their lives like that?

Hippiekinkster -> RE: How much does the American government OWE it's citizens? (2/28/2009 5:20:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blacksword404 quote: ORIGINAL: MzMia quote: ORIGINAL: OneMoreWaste Are we speaking Constitutionally, or in terms of recompense for the 30-odd percent of my salary they're skimming today? Great question! I mean in terms of many of the programs that President Obama is suggesting and the many cries from the "right" that we could turn into a socialist country. I am mainly speaking of what is in"our future" and programs that may be coming our way. Well if you have a retirement account they may want to take that. http://likecoffeecups.blogspot.com/2009/02/hold-on-to-your-401k-and-ira-government.html And your point is what? Some dildo who has the time to blather on on an online pseudo-diary (blog) is someone that I should give the time of day to? Well, you do what you want. I follow my own counsel, and so far my own counsel has allowed me to not work for 15 years while being able to make enough money to pay the bills and travel from time to time. Rock the fuck on, Brutha.

LadyEllen -> RE: How much does the American government OWE it's citizens? (2/28/2009 5:44:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MzMia How much does the American government owe it's citizens? This question is hard for me to phrase, but I mean what does the "government" owe us? Should the government give us welfare/unemployment benefits for months, years, a lifetime? Should the government help out large numbers of people on the brink of foreclosure? Should the government feed, clothe and give shelter to those that are homeless? Should the government provide extensive free health care for everyone? Should the government pay for all those that qualify to go to college? Should the government provide more cradle to the grave benefits to everyone? These are questions that many of us are pondering, and these are issues that seem to be facing America. Your government does not owe any one of you a single thing. Your government is there to represent your interests in the spending of monies which derive from and belong to you. In theory at least. In practice it would seem that just like here, you have a government which is more akin to a feudal aristocracy, demanding taxes from you to support them and their interests and their friends' interests, with little or no means for you to influence how your money is spent. The problem you have is that the social contract you have with one another - such as it was - has broken down completely; something demonstrated by the nature of the very questions you ask. The reasons for that break down are important but we could be here all day if we were to go into them - the questions posed rather demand a revision of that social contract and I'm afraid most likely also a revision of your nation's Constitution too, to reflect a country changed to be beyond recognition to those who originally framed it. The revision of the social contract I would propose might be seen to be something based on unrealistic philanthropy - actually its based on raw, naked self interest and the recognition that we each rely and depend on one another, whatever our circumstances and from that the circumstances of my neighbour affect me one way or another. Unemployment Benefits - yes, the social contract should include such welfare support in an age when anyone can be made unemployed at any time through no fault of their own and when there are simply not enough jobs for everyone to participate in the economy under their own steam. Foreclosures and the Homeless - yes, the social contract should include provisions for people to have a suitable home whether rented or owned. Where an owner is going to be foreclosed on then we all help out by meeting mortgage payments collectively, taking a part ownership in the property according to our contribution. This is much cheaper and more beneficial to us as a whole than allowing people to go to the wall. Health Care - this is such a no-brainer it requires little answer other than yes. Education - another no brainer, yes. Now to have all that will mean either decreased spending on other things or an increase in taxation. Bear in mind that in the UK we pay over something like 50 to 60% of our incomes in taxation to have most of these items and that taxation is generally much higher than in the US. Contrary to some views, such levels of taxation do not destroy economies. Are there abuses of such cradle to grave welfare systems? Of course, but when one considers the abuses that are prevalent in the US now, these are minor in comparison and a small price to pay for such safety nets for all - anyone regardless of their circumstances now or future prospects can find themselves destitute for all manner of reasons and with nothing in place to break the fall there can only be increased crime and social problems - which cost just as much as the provision of a safety net might have done. The paradox in all this is that whilst we might all agree that it would be a good idea to provide a collective fund for rendering assistance to those who fall on hard times, we nevertheless would choose not to contribute to it ourselves and therefore must rely on the government to take it from us if it is something we want. Whilst the right will maintain that such assistance is the province of charity and increased government is a bad thing, the left will maintain that such assistance is a collective social responsibility which only government can deliver. Meanwhile we know that charity donations will be avoided by many regardless of their wishes for such assistance to be available, and we know that government is not often a wise treasurer or judge for such assistance. The commonality is here is a distrust of government in general, arising from the breakdown of the social contract which otherwise would be a natural circumstance of community - and that I would venture is a symptom of a Constitution which is no longer fit for purpose. E

TNstepsout -> RE: How much does the American government OWE it's citizens? (2/28/2009 7:40:50 AM)
They owe us nothing except to spend our money wisely and in ways that will provide the greatest good for the greatest number of people. Government is not Mommy and Daddy. When people get something for nothing they do not value it and most people who get hand outs don't appreciate it.

Crush -> RE: How much does the American government OWE it's citizens? (2/28/2009 7:51:56 AM)
Personally I don't feel I'm owed anything, except to leave me the frack alone. I feel we all have a right to pursue things that we want to pursue, subject to the "fist to the nose" rule. We may feel a responsibility to help others, but it isn't their right to require our help or is in incumbent on us to help them either. We don't get a choice in where we are born (well, according to some philosophies, maybe) but we ultimately do have the choice on how we want to live our life. The government (at least, in theory) governs by consent of the governed. So, in that sense, the government OWES me what we've agreed to in our compact (ie, Constitution, etc.) as citizens of that government. The problem is we've been changing that compact without serious review for a few decades now. When you need a library for laws, I think you've crossed the line and need a "do over" to revisit, review and revise that compact. Peacefully, I'd hope, but don't anticipate. Chaos theory speaks against peaceful changes in general. When a system gets too out of whack it will go "chaotic" until adjustments are made.

TheHeretic -> RE: How much does the American government OWE it's citizens? (2/28/2009 8:05:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MzMia Should the government give us welfare/unemployment benefits for months, years, a lifetime? Should the government help out large numbers of people on the brink of foreclosure? Should the government feed, clothe and give shelter to those that are homeless? Should the government provide extensive free health care for everyone? Should the government pay for all those that qualify to go to college? Mia, I don't see anything on your list that I consider a legitimate function of government. The only one where I have started to come around to a grudging acknowledgement of the necessity for gov't intervention, is on healthcare. I still would not agree that it is "owed" to the citizenry. I think we have a fundamental disconnect here on the nature of government. You seem to view it as a separate entity from the citizenry, with its own money to be throwing around. I view it, under our system in the U.S., as an extension of the citizenry, and the obligations of gov't are the obligations of the people. Obligations which cannot be met individually. The government owes us roads. National and civil defense. A justice system. Electrical and sanitation infrastructure. I do not, and will not, support a cradle to grave nanny state like you suggest in the OP.

ScooterTrash -> RE: How much does the American government OWE it's citizens? (2/28/2009 8:34:54 AM)
quote: Should the government give us welfare/unemployment benefits for months, years, a lifetime? Unemployment is insurance, like any other insurance it should have a limit or a term, dependent on what has been paid in. Once that limit or term has been exhausted, sorry, it's over. No different than car insurance, I expect them to fulfill the obligation I paid them for, but not more than that. If I wreck my vehicle, I don't expect them to repair it and then customize it, all I expect is for it to be repaired. quote: Should the government help out large numbers of people on the brink of foreclosure? No, mortgage insurance was likely available at the time they financed their home. If they didn't think it was important enough for them to pay the premium to cover them in case of an event such as extended unemployment, then I don't see why the government should be obligated to cover them for their shortsightedness. A home is an investment, it should be treated as such and if financed, treated as any other investment you would borrow money to invest in, there is some risk. quote: Should the government feed, clothe and give shelter to those that are homeless? No, but they certainly could promote charities to provide for mass housing and the states could contribute, either in cash or tax incentives, to organizations that operate food banks, soup kitchens and housing. I don't have an issue with someone asking for help, I have issues with being forced to help. quote: Should the government provide extensive free health care for everyone? Free? Not exactly, but organizing a massive group policy for all citizens would not be out of the question. Free, is a tricky term, since nothing really is free, someone somewhere has to pay for product & services, so funding has to come from somewhere. Providing medical coverage though a massive medical insurance fund would be a more viable option. Again, it would be insurance so there would be limits. Since there would be limits, training should also be provided so the recipients could be better (more aware) consumers. Just like private policies, if there are abusers (emergency room for the sniffles, etc.) it would drive costs up, so there would have to be a wake up call for everyone involved to use this medical coverage wisely in order to make it work. quote: Should the government pay for all those that qualify to go to college? Absolutely not! College is a luxury, not a necessity. I would not have issues with some form of selective scholarship based on achievements, but across the board just because they "qualify" seems overkill. A vast majority of college grads never utilize the higher education they received anyway, so promoting this by throwing money at it would be a poor investment. I've seen a lot of idiots with degrees and a lot of high school grads that are brilliant and successful...those results speak for themselves. quote: Should the government provide more cradle to the grave benefits to everyone? No, actually they should butt out and provide less. Just like a private individuals budget, overextending themselves trying to provide too much is doing nothing but putting them in the hole, consequently private tax paying citizens are having to pick up the tab. People need to realize that there are consequences to poor planning and trying to manipulate the system. We need temporary programs in place to assist those who are victims of circumstance, but we do not need social programs to bail out those who are victims of their own incompetence. Folks (including corporations) need to be responsible for their own actions.

MzMia -> RE: How much does the American government OWE it's citizens? (2/28/2009 3:32:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: MzMia Should the government give us welfare/unemployment benefits for months, years, a lifetime? Should the government help out large numbers of people on the brink of foreclosure? Should the government feed, clothe and give shelter to those that are homeless? Should the government provide extensive free health care for everyone? Should the government pay for all those that qualify to go to college? Mia, I don't see anything on your list that I consider a legitimate function of government. The only one where I have started to come around to a grudging acknowledgement of the necessity for gov't intervention, is on healthcare. I still would not agree that it is "owed" to the citizenry. I think we have a fundamental disconnect here on the nature of government. You seem to view it as a separate entity from the citizenry, with its own money to be throwing around. I view it, under our system in the U.S., as an extension of the citizenry, and the obligations of gov't are the obligations of the people. Obligations which cannot be met individually. The government owes us roads. National and civil defense. A justice system. Electrical and sanitation infrastructure. I do not, and will not, support a cradle to grave nanny state like you suggest in the OP. Rich, Rich, Rich the switch, do you need a spanking? I never said I believed we are owed anything by the "government". I am thinking about these issues and I asked the question, because almost all these issues seem to be issues of concern to our new administration. I never have believed in cradle to the grave government "help", but I do think issues like food, shelter, and homelessness should be matters that our government should attempt to help people with. As far as bailing out people near foreclosure? I am on the fence on that issue. I just returned from buying groceries and lately every time I go into a grocery store, I sure the hell want a bail out from the high prices! I plan to write President Obama, and request a bailout for those of us that need to buy groceries! [8\|]

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