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outlier -> Soros And Volker Say Economy Not Near Bottom Yet (2/23/2009 1:21:06 PM)



Reuters Article

George Soros:

"We witnessed the collapse of the financial system," Soros said at a Columbia University dinner. "It was placed on life support, and it's still on life support. There's no sign that we are anywhere near a bottom."

Soros said the turbulence is actually more severe than during the Great Depression, comparing the current situation to the demise of the Soviet Union.

Paul Volker:

His comments echoed those made earlier at the same conference by Paul Volcker, a former Federal Reserve chairman who is now a top adviser to President Barack Obama.

Volcker said industrial production around the world was declining even more rapidly than in the United States, which is itself under severe strain.

"I don't remember any time, maybe even in the Great Depression, when things went down quite so fast, quite so uniformly around the world," Volcker said.

I wonder if Obama is regretting taking over this mess.
Expecially since so many are eager to blame him if he
cannot reverse it.

Outlier




DedicatedDom40 -> RE: Soros And Volker Say Economy Not Near Bottom Yet (2/23/2009 1:34:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: outlier

I wonder if Obama is regretting taking over this mess.
Expecially since so many are eager to blame him if he
cannot reverse it.



Whoever was destined to take over would only be throwing themselves on the grenade.  Im just glad it was the smarter one. Gives me hope for some strategy in possibly directing the blast.

McCain's only asset, his respectful patriotic history, would buy even less in this situation, Im afraid.







Mercnbeth -> RE: Soros And Volker Say Economy Not Near Bottom Yet (2/23/2009 2:32:44 PM)

~ Fast Reply ~
 
Agendas have replaced goals for this administration. There is no doubt the plan in action is designed to achieve them. Were another person in place at the top, not necessarily Senator McCain or any of the figureheads allowed to achieve political power by the PAC, special interest paymaster; they could have taken a differnt path and accomplished a bit more out of the gate.

Maybe instead of making public works jobs a priority; they would have pursued a path creating private sector jobs.

Instead of just turning over TARP money only to see it used for acquisitions, contractual bonuses, and providing an opportunity to insulate losses already on the books, they could have required it to be used strictly in financing and re-financing present loans.

Instead of responding to the "we have to do something!" outcry from the public which resulted in doing something that best resembles a bloated Hollywood sequel to President Bush's 'economic stimulus' program; they could have performed an audit and determined where the current funds are outgoing from the US Treasury.

Yes, like any new President he's suffering the 'sins' of his predecessor, but nobody ever said he had to follow them to the letter. I wonder why he, or anyone, would expect a different result?

As we speak, the review of this weekend's rhetoric coming from the White House and its policy makers got a 250 point 'thumps down' from Wall Street today. The result is even more troubling considering the announcement that he is backing off from prior rhetoric regarding Nationalizing the financial industry; now they only want a 40% stake in the CitiBank failure. Although another boon to the 'short sellers' which I participate, its not something I identify as being a long term smart investment strategy. I'm already worried that it the trend continues we'll see a day similar to what occurred in Germany, where you got bread equal to the height of pile of marks you put on the bakers counter.

ACORN, has just had its first arrest.
quote:

Police in Baltimore today made what is believed to be the first arrest in a civil disobedience program aimed at supporting homeowners who refuse to vacate their foreclosed homes."This is our house now," ACORN member Louis Beverly reportedly said after cutting a lock with bolt cutters at the home.
Source: ACORN CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE 
There mandate to do so came directly from President Obama when he spoke to their convention. President Obama pulled the pin from that grenade all by himself. When the weather turns from cold to warm, the Presidential mandate ACORN beleives they have, has the potential of blowing up into violence.

The problem that this will bring is that Banks will react to pressure and rhetoric coming from the streets and supported by the White House. Especially now when their ongoing failure was assured. The pressure will be on the commercial side of the ledger sheet. There is no publicly funded special interest group, similar to ACORN, protecting the small business operator, owner, or commercial property manager. When financial institutions re-focus and accelerate the collection efforts against small business, curtailing or limiting their lines of credit, or determining that the underlying commercial property no longer meets the lending guidelines in today's market; there is the added consequence of laying off employees. It creates more families unable to pay their rent and/or mortgages; further lowering the market value of real property, commercial and residential.

Hey, its very convenient to have a scape-goat so loathed as President Bush to blame. However, the results we are seeing from the first days of this administration are owned by this administration. It is their decisions affecting the markets, both Wall Street and Real Estate.

I've taken over, and had to turn around many businesses and companies over the years, including the one I'm with currently. I loved it! I knew going in there were many things I wasn't going to do. At the top of the list, I wasn't going to follow the polices of these who came before me.  Right near that a 1A was I wasn't going to blame those who came before me because that only pointed to the past and did nothing to solve the problem.

Between President Obama and his supporters that seems like all we have going on. Following the same Bush economic program, dramatically increasing its size; while blaming President Bush when economic indicators and pragmatic results point to no end in sight.

There was tremendous opportunity. The constituency wanted, and thought they elected, someone who wouldn't follow the same path. Instead of diving on a live grenade - I would think President Obama would consider just putting back the pin.




DedicatedDom40 -> RE: Soros And Volker Say Economy Not Near Bottom Yet (2/23/2009 2:54:55 PM)

He doesnt have the pin.

Wall St took it, securitized it, and sold it around the world.




popeye1250 -> RE: Soros And Volker Say Economy Not Near Bottom Yet (2/23/2009 4:07:39 PM)

There has to be what's called "capitulation" in the markets.
We're in a serious period but we will get through it but it's going to take a while.
I doubt *anyone* can tell us when this market will bottom out.




MarsBonfire -> RE: Soros And Volker Say Economy Not Near Bottom Yet (2/23/2009 4:24:09 PM)

Thank god we DID elect Obama... can you imagine how hard our economy would be going down in flames if McCain and his proxy Bush third term were in office right now? (shudder) I was watching one of the financial new channels and a talk show there tried to project where we'd be RIGHT NOW had McCain just continued with the tax cuts for the rich, and didn't bother with any kind of stimulus to the credit markets....

Total
Fucking
Chaos!





corysub -> RE: Soros And Volker Say Economy Not Near Bottom Yet (2/23/2009 5:27:00 PM)

The only thing I can think is that people here didn't bother to read at least parts of the so called Stimulus Package.  If I point out the obvious pork it's called :"ranting"....I guess the stock market is ranting too....
No one expected Obama to turn things around over-night in a situation where the banking system of the world in under duress.  Maybe Barack did...I would rule that out...but most of us, even those who voted against him, hoped that his charismatic delivery and soothing style could turn confidence. 

Instead, he has become a Jimmy Carter type, beating up on the issue instead of trying to build confidence.  We know we are in a crisis, we know things are bad and people in California (50% of all the toxic real estate mortgages), Florida and Nevada are seeing houses foreclosed at an increasing rate.  Who among us that has traveled to California over the past decade did not think that the real estate market there was a bubble that could burst...it took longer than I thought...but when it happened it was more disastroud than I could ever had expected.

Obama offered no real stimulus...and the so called  Stimulus package is a sham, as anyone who takes the time to actually go through the proposals will agree.

It is starting to feel as if we are beating a dead horse...but the man truly has no idea how to be positive..he is still campaigning with negative commentary, beating up on the economy nd individuals.  When a CNBC reporter dares to question Obama's mortgage program, he sends out his lacky in Mr. Gibbs to suggest that the man, a seasoned veteran of commodity trading, has not clue...when, in fact, I don't believe Obama et al has anyclue...they only have an ideology.  Truly a dangerous time for our country.

I just can't seem to bring myself to even comment on Soros, the promotor of moveon.org and a guy who, it seems to me, wants to change America into some zombie land of liberals living off the government cheese....




Vendaval -> RE: Soros And Volker Say Economy Not Near Bottom Yet (2/23/2009 7:29:52 PM)

One of the comments during the last days of the election was, "Who would want to take over such an economic disaster?" 




outlier -> RE: Soros And Volker Say Economy Not Near Bottom Yet (2/23/2009 8:00:44 PM)

Yes Vendaval,

Or as The Onion put it on Nov 5th.

Black Man Given Nation's Worst Job

WASHINGTON—African-American man Barack Obama, 47, was given the least-desirable job in the entire country Tuesday when he was elected president of the United States of America. In his new high-stress, low-reward position, Obama will be charged with such tasks as completely overhauling the nation's broken-down economy, repairing the crumbling infrastructure, and generally having to please more than 300 million Americans and cater to their every whim on a daily basis. As part of his duties, the black man will have to spend four to eight years cleaning up the messes other people left behind. The job comes with such intense scrutiny and so certain a guarantee of failure that only one other person even bothered applying for it. Said scholar and activist Mark L. Denton, "It just goes to show you that, in this country, a black man still can't catch a break."





Vendaval -> RE: Soros And Volker Say Economy Not Near Bottom Yet (2/23/2009 8:24:15 PM)

Thank goodness for The Onion!  [:D]




MasterShake69 -> RE: Soros And Volker Say Economy Not Near Bottom Yet (2/23/2009 9:05:19 PM)

On Monday the 23 rd I was watching MSNBC's show hardball and was amazed the truth was aired about Obama.  It has become apparent to even the broadcasters that are Obama fans that he doesn't understand the economy.  The liberals were making suggestions that Obama go away for a weekend and study up on things.  My jaw dropped and i was shaking my head with amazement. There hero is ignorant about the economy.  Would that make Obama dumber then Bush or as dumb as Bush ;)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/29356259#29356259
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/



[/quote]


Whoever was destined to take over would only be throwing themselves on the grenade.  Im just glad it was the smarter one. Gives me hope for some strategy in possibly directing the blast.

McCain's only asset, his respectful patriotic history, would buy even less in this situation, Im afraid.




[/quote]




MasterShake69 -> RE: Soros And Volker Say Economy Not Near Bottom Yet (2/23/2009 9:21:21 PM)

Since Obama had over 2 months to prepare he would have no excuse in not understanding the problems of the economy and having a plan ready to confront it.  Mr Mathews from MSNBC thinks Obama needs additional time for him to get ready ;)
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/29356259#29356259
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/


quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

Thank god we DID elect Obama... can you imagine how hard our economy would be going down in flames if McCain and his proxy Bush third term were in office right now? (shudder) I was watching one of the financial new channels and a talk show there tried to project where we'd be RIGHT NOW had McCain just continued with the tax cuts for the rich, and didn't bother with any kind of stimulus to the credit markets....

Total
Fucking
Chaos!






Hippiekinkster -> RE: Soros And Volker Say Economy Not Near Bottom Yet (2/23/2009 9:47:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterShake69

On Monday the 23 rd I was watching MSNBC's show hardball and was amazed the truth was aired about Obama.  It has become apparent to even the broadcasters that are Obama fans that he doesn't understand the economy.  The liberals were making suggestions that Obama go away for a weekend and study up on things.  My jaw dropped and i was shaking my head with amazement. There hero is ignorant about the economy.  Would that make Obama dumber then Bush or as dumb as Bush ;)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/29356259#29356259
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/






What qualifications do you have to be able to determine whether Obama's economic plans are valid? Do you have a post-grad degree in Economics? Or are you yet another Joe the Plumber?

Rhetorical question.




corysub -> RE: Soros And Volker Say Economy Not Near Bottom Yet (2/23/2009 10:54:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: outlier

Yes Vendaval,

Or as The Onion put it on Nov 5th.

Black Man Given Nation's Worst Job

WASHINGTON—African-American man Barack Obama, 47, was given the least-desirable job in the entire country Tuesday when he was elected president of the United States of America. In his new high-stress, low-reward position, Obama will be charged with such tasks as completely overhauling the nation's broken-down economy, repairing the crumbling infrastructure, and generally having to please more than 300 million Americans and cater to their every whim on a daily basis. As part of his duties, the black man will have to spend four to eight years cleaning up the messes other people left behind. The job comes with such intense scrutiny and so certain a guarantee of failure that only one other person even bothered applying for it. Said scholar and activist Mark L. Denton, "It just goes to show you that, in this country, a black man still can't catch a break."




Sad to think that Obama fought so hard for the job with his eyes closed it seems, if you believe this stuff.  Heck, people here, including you and me, agree on not a heck of a lot but I think it was unanimous among us that the economy which started to get hit in the financial community in 2007,  was in the shitter from the beginning of 2008, if not before....Didn't have to read the headlines...just open the 401K statement...
It goes back to the concerns expressed during the primary.  We now have a President who has unbelieveable skill in rallying masses of  young people, aided with a rock and roll opening act, but lacked any realworld experience in business,management, and economics.  Hillary waved the flag as to who would be ready on "day one"...and the gal was right.  What did Obama expect the job of President  to be....just writing checks from people who work to people who don't?  And what is this BS about "Black Man"...what difference is that supposed to make to turn focus on his color?  Is that an excuese?  He is a "man" who came to Washington with an "agenda", not a plan.  You can see it in the day to day reactions to headlines, trial baloons, same old democrat class warfare, tax the rich, screw business, be Green and Mean...and, as any good street community activist knows, keep telling people how terrible the establishment is, talk it down, and rally the troops for action. ...  and this is what he is doing as we head towards depression.  There is zero confidence building in his words. Who would have believed that this government would push through a trillion dollars of so called Stimulus and it only makes people more worried.  And now we get an article intimating that once again the "black guy" got screwed...What a patronizing liberal answer to any question involving race.

He was played by Pelosi and Reid....and is responding now to the backlash with "summit" meetings after the country has been put on a solid footing of "pork and waste". Instead of business stimulation, we get a package initially approaching a "trillion dollars" and the major beneficiary is big government on the federal level, and irresponsible Governors who did not make the tough, necessary decisions in the past.  Those roads and bridges did not detriorate over night...the pols were all asleep or passing out checks to a bloated bureacracy instead of watching the store.

When that call does come at 3:00 A.M. in the morning, I would not be surprised if he checks caller ID and if it's Geithner...just let it ring to the "beep" and voicemail..  Meanwhile, the economy, is going beep, beep, beep...and heading towards..."flatline".  Maybe Gibbs will get up there and announce that they are going to cut the salary level of the bankers to $250,000 and show those bankers who is captain of this ship as we head full speed towards a field of economic glaciers.




outlier -> RE: Soros And Volker Say Economy Not Near Bottom Yet (2/23/2009 11:22:44 PM)

corysub,

It was The Onion! I clearly stated it was "The Onion" and gave a link to show it.
Vendaval clearly got it.

Here maybe this will explain it to you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Onion

"The Onion is an American "fake news" organization. It features satirical articles reporting
on international, national, and local news as well as an entertainment newspaper and website
known as The A.V. Club."

But then again there are none so blind as those who will not see.
So maybe you won't get it.

Outlier

edited to add quotes around the wiki paragraph




Hippiekinkster -> RE: Soros And Volker Say Economy Not Near Bottom Yet (2/23/2009 11:26:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: outlier

corysub,

It was The Onion! I clearly stated it was "The Onion" and gave a link to show it.
Vendaval clearly got it.

Here maybe this will explain it to you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Onion

The Onion is an American "fake news" organization. It features satirical articles reporting
on international, national, and local news as well as an entertainment newspaper and website
known as The A.V. Club.

But then again there are none so blind as those who will not see.
So maybe you won't get it.

Outlier

I have found that one of the best features of the forums (I know that isn't the right ending, but I don't feel like looking up the 2nd Declension genitive plural ending for "Forum" [8D]) is the "ignore" button at the lower left hand of a post. It has saved me literally days of my life from reading drivel. Peace.




corysub -> RE: Soros And Volker Say Economy Not Near Bottom Yet (2/23/2009 11:37:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: outlier

corysub,

It was The Onion! I clearly stated it was "The Onion" and gave a link to show it.
Vendaval clearly got it.

Here maybe this will explain it to you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Onion

"The Onion is an American "fake news" organization. It features satirical articles reporting
on international, national, and local news as well as an entertainment newspaper and website
known as The A.V. Club."

But then again there are none so blind as those who will not see.
So maybe you won't get it.

Outlier

edited to add quotes around the wiki paragraph



ewww... I read it as "orian"...should not be posting at 2AM I guess..
thx




MasterShake69 -> RE: Soros And Volker Say Economy Not Near Bottom Yet (2/23/2009 11:59:48 PM)

The same as yours ;)
I think you need to reread what i said.  I was talking about the analysis of the people on MSNBC.  Matthews had his experts from CNBC on in the very beginning of the show not shown on that clip.   They were telling him what was wrong with the stock market and what was needed in the stimulus bill.  Then the clip showed the political fallout and they were discussing on what obama needed to do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster



What qualifications do you have to be able to determine whether Obama's economic plans are valid? Do you have a post-grad degree in Economics? Or are you yet another Joe the Plumber?

Rhetorical question.




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Soros And Volker Say Economy Not Near Bottom Yet (2/24/2009 12:08:02 AM)

Jesus christ, Cory, you thought the Onion article was serious? You can't make this shit up. Shades of "T.E. Lawrence -  who is this clown and what are his credentials?"




MrRodgers -> RE: Soros And Volker Say Economy Not Near Bottom Yet (2/24/2009 12:14:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

~ Fast Reply ~
 
Agendas have replaced goals for this administration. There is no doubt the plan in action is designed to achieve them. Were another person in place at the top, not necessarily Senator McCain or any of the figureheads allowed to achieve political power by the PAC, special interest paymaster; they could have taken a differnt path and accomplished a bit more out of the gate.

Maybe instead of making public works jobs a priority; they would have pursued a path creating private sector jobs.

Instead of just turning over TARP money only to see it used for acquisitions, contractual bonuses, and providing an opportunity to insulate losses already on the books, they could have required it to be used strictly in financing and re-financing present loans.

Instead of responding to the "we have to do something!" outcry from the public which resulted in doing something that best resembles a bloated Hollywood sequel to President Bush's 'economic stimulus' program; they could have performed an audit and determined where the current funds are outgoing from the US Treasury.

Yes, like any new President he's suffering the 'sins' of his predecessor, but nobody ever said he had to follow them to the letter. I wonder why he, or anyone, would expect a different result?

As we speak, the review of this weekend's rhetoric coming from the White House and its policy makers got a 250 point 'thumps down' from Wall Street today. The result is even more troubling considering the announcement that he is backing off from prior rhetoric regarding Nationalizing the financial industry; now they only want a 40% stake in the CitiBank failure. Although another boon to the 'short sellers' which I participate, its not something I identify as being a long term smart investment strategy. I'm already worried that it the trend continues we'll see a day similar to what occurred in Germany, where you got bread equal to the height of pile of marks you put on the bakers counter.

ACORN, has just had its first arrest.
quote:

Police in Baltimore today made what is believed to be the first arrest in a civil disobedience program aimed at supporting homeowners who refuse to vacate their foreclosed homes."This is our house now," ACORN member Louis Beverly reportedly said after cutting a lock with bolt cutters at the home.
Source: ACORN CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE 
There mandate to do so came directly from President Obama when he spoke to their convention. President Obama pulled the pin from that grenade all by himself. When the weather turns from cold to warm, the Presidential mandate ACORN beleives they have, has the potential of blowing up into violence.

The problem that this will bring is that Banks will react to pressure and rhetoric coming from the streets and supported by the White House. Especially now when their ongoing failure was assured. The pressure will be on the commercial side of the ledger sheet. There is no publicly funded special interest group, similar to ACORN, protecting the small business operator, owner, or commercial property manager. When financial institutions re-focus and accelerate the collection efforts against small business, curtailing or limiting their lines of credit, or determining that the underlying commercial property no longer meets the lending guidelines in today's market; there is the added consequence of laying off employees. It creates more families unable to pay their rent and/or mortgages; further lowering the market value of real property, commercial and residential.

Hey, its very convenient to have a scape-goat so loathed as President Bush to blame. However, the results we are seeing from the first days of this administration are owned by this administration. It is their decisions affecting the markets, both Wall Street and Real Estate.

I've taken over, and had to turn around many businesses and companies over the years, including the one I'm with currently. I loved it! I knew going in there were many things I wasn't going to do. At the top of the list, I wasn't going to follow the polices of these who came before me.  Right near that a 1A was I wasn't going to blame those who came before me because that only pointed to the past and did nothing to solve the problem.

Between President Obama and his supporters that seems like all we have going on. Following the same Bush economic program, dramatically increasing its size; while blaming President Bush when economic indicators and pragmatic results point to no end in sight.

There was tremendous opportunity. The constituency wanted, and thought they elected, someone who wouldn't follow the same path. Instead of diving on a live grenade - I would think President Obama would consider just putting back the pin.

Yes, yes and yes but we all know why this is happening and what a true sense of 'capitalism' really is and is not. All of the values you speak of...get this...were not really there unless the bubble or feeding frenzy continues and most should have known...it couldn't.

There is no way in hell for example that my house was worth at one time...$500,000. A friend held onto his rental when he could have legitimately got that much because he added 2 master bedrooms and master baths and an additional zone to the AC/heat. Too bad his tenants couldn't keep work and he is now about $40,000 underwater.

Trading things which is what capitalism is...means finding that last buyer like in a big Ponzi. To liquidate 401' and IRA's, to sell that $500,000 home or anything, you had to find one more buyer and the last buyer takes the biggest hit.

That's why I say capitalism as reflected in the trading of houses, paper and things and the value or 'wealth' it is supposed to be creating is vacuous or...full of air.






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