RE: Navigating Monogamy in a Sea of Poly (Full Version)

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feydeplume -> RE: Navigating Monogamy in a Sea of Poly (2/11/2009 7:41:01 AM)

I just want to chime in on the many shades of poly part of this. If you and your S.O. have a friend with benefits (sex, bondage, playtime, or any other sexual/deeply intimate acts) then that IS a form of poly. There is a relationship, friendship, between the parties, and there is a physically intimate act occurring with that friend.  There is also pressure on T/D/Ms and B/S/Ss to "play" with others in communities because the person has shown high skill with or at something and that is a form of "poly" pressure.

I guess for alot of people poly only means conventional sexual relations. I don't see it that way and I know a lot of other people see beating someone as a form of intimacy and potentially emotionally bonding.



Aileen1968 -> RE: Navigating Monogamy in a Sea of Poly (2/11/2009 7:41:55 AM)

Personally, I don't think poly is the norm. I think it takes a lot of interpersonal skills to have a successful poly relationship. Most don't possess these skills. I think that a lot of people who claim to be poly are just using that word to fuck anything that moves. Nothing will make me run faster in the opposite direction than the mere mention of the word poly.



SimplyMichael -> RE: Navigating Monogamy in a Sea of Poly (2/11/2009 7:49:16 AM)

Uh WOW...

All I can say is out west here, the class sure resonates with people.  I have a list of about five classes and it is the one they zero in on and want me to present.

I have been to too many classes that spent half the time going over the presenter's bio and or definitions.  I am going to sidestep all of that.  I am going to figure that if you are there, monogamy resonates with you somehow.  I am going to go over some varieties of monogamy less to define it but to make it clear that sitting down and discussing what monogamy means beforehand is very important.  For some that means no touching and for others no penetration and a million colors in between.  I just want to steer clear of deciding on a definition because the whole two hours could be spent on that and I want to get into the meat of the subject.

How does one, as a single person, get to be known in the local community as someone worthy of asking out to coffee so to speak.  Single males have it hard, no matter your orientation, we tend to be thought of as idiots till proven otherwise.  I want to talk about ways to be "proven otherwise."  Again, there are the classic ways of stepping into the various common tasks around the scene but I am looking for things that are outside of that box.  Things I haven't yet thought of.

I am going to talk about doing those things but I want to cover how to balance being true to yourself with helping out in the scene.  This isn't a "how to be you" class but I am going to go over some of that.  It is tempting to be "universal dom" and for some that works.  It certainly makes finding a partner faster but for some of us it doesnt' work and the sooner they recognize that, the sooner they will become who they really are.


One of the reasons I enjoy collarme is there are a lot of bright and interesting people here who reject the scene.  Despite what many think, I am actually a fairly private person and when I meet "her" I will likely disappear to some degree back out of the spotlight.  How one steps into the spotlight with integrity is something I want to cover.  It can be a heady experience as people start throwing themselves at you.

Where I want the most input is the experience of women in going through all this.  Their experience is going to be far different from mine and I want to ensure I am not just speaking to the men about my personal experience and concepts.

For couples, that first bit about communication is important, how to set limits on what is and isn't okay.  How to navigate issues like when some well meaning (or not) person wanders up with some cool toy like a violet wand and says "want me to show you how this feels".  Pretty common line in my experience and one that goes badly often enough that I want to cover it. 

I don't want to lay out my whole class here as what I am looking for is other peoples experiences both for perspective and seeing how they worked through things.



chiaThePet -> RE: Navigating Monogamy in a Sea of Poly (2/11/2009 7:51:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

Nothing will make me run faster in the opposite direction than the mere mention of the word poly.



Okay, fine.

Aileen wanna cracker?

chia* (the pet)



RedMagic1 -> RE: Navigating Monogamy in a Sea of Poly (2/11/2009 8:04:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
I want to talk about ways to be "proven otherwise." 

My answer is, "Meet women online."

That woman you wrote me about a few months ago is well known in the SF scene.  On our first real-life date, she said, "Can we take a few minutes and just bag on the local scene?"  She's not unique in this.  Every woman I've dated who has a scene presence has wanted to do this with me.

Her solution was to date online, and to look for the things that most attracted her, regardless of geographical area.  The man she dated before me lives in Chicago.  The man she is dating now lives in Texas.  I know a lot of specifics of her situation, because we are good friends, but I could give other examples, too.  I've even dated someone she had met at an SF munch before meeting me, a woman with a dom profile on Alt, though no presence here.  The dom was looking far and wide, also.  So much for SF or New York City being the meccas of kink.  There's a lot more skilled rope tops there than there are where I live, but if you're looking for a guy who sees you as a person first, you've got a hell of a search ahead of you.



Aileen1968 -> RE: Navigating Monogamy in a Sea of Poly (2/11/2009 8:11:56 AM)

I'm just curious why you think someone has to be known in the community in order to be asked out? A lot of people never do public play or ever connect to the "scene" and yet they are able to meet others and have healthy relationships. Relying on other people's opinions doesn't seem like the most effective way to connect with someone.



SimplyMichael -> RE: Navigating Monogamy in a Sea of Poly (2/11/2009 8:46:53 AM)

Well Aileen, someone has to know them to be asked out and the more who know you, the better the odds get.  I am not preaching the one true way here but for many, they want to be in the scene and yet find certain aspects difficult.

If they find it all easy then I doubt they would be interested in the class but if they do find it difficult then they just might show up.



Andalusite -> RE: Navigating Monogamy in a Sea of Poly (2/11/2009 8:49:49 AM)

Here in the Bay Area, there is a fairly substantial poly presence, both in the Kink scene, and also people I know through various vanilla interests. However, I'd say that the "sea" is more one of non-monogamy than poly, per se. There are a *LOT* of people who don't want committed relationships at all, just friends-with-benefits/playpartners. Most are straightforward if you ask, or once they get more comfortable, but it's a little awkward to bring up on/before the first date.

I'm not sure if I count for your survey - so far, I've only been in monogamous relationships (although some did allow for flirting/cuddling, but not sex), but I have done some casual, non-overtly sexual play, and am open to the possibility of a polyfidelitous, closed relationship if the people/situation were a perfect fit. In general, it's more of a hypothetical but unlikely scenario, just as I'm willing to consider a relationship with just another women. I have a lot of trepidation about getting my emotional needs met, potential for drama, and I feel it's far less likely that I'd be happy in either situation than in a monogamous or mono-with-room-for-play relationship, so I'm not actively seeking either.

Hmm, I've had some issues with poly folks, both in and out of the Scene, being *MUCH* more persistent about hitting on me/trying to get me as a girlfriend than monogamous people. If I tell them I don't want a poly relationship, or could only be interested in cpf (closed poly fi), they start going on about how many different possibilities there are, even though all of them boil down to an open relationship, or brag about the absence of jealousy in their relationship, etc. They frequently don't take "no, not interested, let's change the subject for an answer unless you get outright rude with them, even though they don't seem like the kind of socially clueless people who would do that kind of thing. Inseveral of those cases, it was someone who I had known for years and considered a friend, so it was very awkward to fend them off without offending them.

Hmm, I have a few specific situations I could share, if you're interested, but I don't think I want to post them for the general public.

I met the Dom I had for the last 3 years or so through a different kinky online personals site, and a switch ex-boyfriend who I dated for about a year at a playparty, but I met all of my other partners (all of whom I've done some form of kink with, since I was 20) through mutual vanilla interests. There are quite a few that are popular around here which have a high percentage of kinky people, although the same ones tend to also have a lot of poly or other non-monogamous folks as well.




SimplyMichael -> RE: Navigating Monogamy in a Sea of Poly (2/11/2009 8:59:17 AM)

Andalusite,

Thanks for sharing all that and of course feel free to message me privately if there are things you don't want shared openly.



Amaros -> RE: Navigating Monogamy in a Sea of Poly (2/11/2009 9:28:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Hi Calla,

What do you think of this as a working hypothesis?

Groups and their interest in poly:

1) Gay male masters - requirement
2) Gay male subs - strong interest, at least in gangbang scenes
3) Straight male masters - strong interest
4) Straight male nilla - curious
5) Lesbians of any orientation - varies widely
6) Straight female nilla - hard limit

A good breakdown, although you forgot to mention bi subs, which is pretty common.

I am monogamous, though largely from a utilitarian standpoint, and I'd agree with the "sea of poly" statement if it includes what is basically, the singles scene, i.e., casual dating, with members of the same or opposite sex, in social, but for relatively indefinite stretches of time, whether it be one night stands or dating for a few weeks or months - technically, serial monogamy is a sort of slow motion poly.

And I say utilitarian, as my practical concerns have been largely with STD's and unplanned pregnancy throughout most of my adult life - sadly, my sexual prime occurred just as the AIDS epidemic was emerging full steam, and nobody really knew much about it, how it was transmitted or anything - many of my shipmates were slutting about like there was no tomorrow, routinely lining up every Monday morning for a shot of Penicillin, but he whole thing gave me the willies, and I basically chose to remain celibate till I got the whole thing sorted out.

So, if I am poly, it's in a very utilitarian way, i.e., keeping track of who is fucking who, it's strictly a matter of risk management, and I'm going to shy away from any sort of arrangement that I perceive as increasing my risk profile - if it involves a small, intimate group of people, vetted for risk profile, I'm all for it - if involves random promiscuity, I'm going to shy away from it out of sheer survival instinct.

I'm of an age where unplanned pregnancy is less of an issue, so I'm a bit more inclined towards poly, either play/dating or 24/7, I might even go for hetero polyandry with the right people - as someone mentioned, poly usually means polygyny, occasionally, gynocentric polyandrism, with polysexual/pansexual arrangements somewhere in the middle, and running the gamut, and I couldn't tell you what the demographics are, I'm not sure good numbers are available, particularly if you include Vanilla swinging, and even basic singles culture.

I really don't think there is a lot of pressure on monogamy, or at least no more pressure than there has ever been, i.e., a "hard dick has no conscience", and given time, even your best friend cannot be trusted not to hit on your old lady at some point - but again, that's nothing new, and neither is boredom and/or conflict, uneven growth, etc. so I don't know what the answer is, it's really an individual thing, which is kind of a cop out, but true nevertheless.

I've had friends who went Muslim on the subject, i.e., you quite simply did not get left alone with their old lady, however old and fond a friend you were, others who worked it out in other ways, some pretty dysfunctional, and there is that sort of jealousy play, where you flirt around, and drive your partner into a jealous frenzy - and occasionally, there are those people who are just loyal to each other. It's something you really have to sort out with your partner, there are no cultural or social controls that have ever managed to effectively enforce exclusivity against the urge to genetically diversify.

Oddly, I just posted on the subject in another forum w/regard to the old Green Eyed Monster: "Of course in an ostensibly monogamous culture, jealousy is a trait that will be selected for to some degree: males require paternity assurances, i.e., that the children they are working to provide for are their own, while women are jealous of those resources, including time, for the sake of their half of the genetic contribution.

So yes, jealousy is a basic human emotional trait, once two individuals have combined their genetic destinies, so to speak, they both have something to lose if one or the other strays, and stray they do, because the flip side of qualitative devotion the family is the urge to diversify ones genetic legacy..."

Heh, sorry about quoting myself, but the point is that we are all pretty much conflicted about this, some value self control, others promote social controls, but by and large, the chips still fall where they may, and some simply adapt and find some normative way of managing this conflict, whether it's swinging, poly, or serial monogamy.

I suppose what I'm suggesting is that when it comes to managing human relationships, there is no silver bullet, only a range of strategies for reducing conflict, and this is the approach I would suggest, i.e., a list of strategies for monogamy at the center of which I would include communication.

I'm an artist for instance, and while I'm perfectly capable of keeping it in my pants, I am a student of human anatomy, and all artists are voyeurs by definition - so even in a monogamous relationship, there are going to be issues for anybody that isn't pretty secure about themselves, and it sort of coincides with the whole debate over the cultural phenomona of relationships in the digital age, i.e., is cybering cheating, or augmented fantasy, etc.



RCdc -> RE: Navigating Monogamy in a Sea of Poly (2/11/2009 9:55:45 AM)

I don't believe you have to be known to be dated.  You don't have to know someone you see down a pub, club or artclass and BDSM isn't that different.
 
From a relationship point of view and the female side, I would be attracted to someone who is friendly, open and has a stable and long existing friendship base, not just BDSM wise but as a whole.  Positive history rocks.  Darcy has friends from childhood whom we see, people who he has known from his rockband days and his more recent music scene.  A person who can maintain and have consistant contact with people they befriend is a big plus.  And wide range of people, not just BDSM based.  It has to extend and branch into many aspects of life.  He also has a good relationship with ex partners, another plus.  If people in general are making sure that a person remains in their friendship group and it isn't just onesided or a 'hanger on', that shows they have a faith in that person in whatever capacity that might be.  It doesn't matter if they do not have a big bdsm friendship base, as long as they have some - regardless.
 
For me, it's not so much having 'connections' or others opinions(like references), it's about being a team player I guess.

In your example, if someone did that to me as a single, I would refuse with a simple no thanks.  I put that down to the reason that I feel pretty strongly about playing with people, its too personal for me and I have always wanted to be monogamous.  It's very hard and not everyone can do it, but people should be able to say no thank you if they are approached with a wand by a stranger.
As a couple, I still just say, no thanks, I only use such with Darcy, I am just not comfortable otherwise.  Again, harder for some.  That occured at Kinkfest last year, when we were trying out the VWs and the guy handed it to Darcy and he used it on me.  It's no biggy, unless you act all insulted, there is no need to jump to concluesions.  Simple politeness is always well received.  I have always found monogamy respected by people.
 
In other words, just because you might be at a certain event or place, don't confine/restrict yourself to it.
 
the.dark.



KatyLied -> RE: Navigating Monogamy in a Sea of Poly (2/11/2009 2:13:29 PM)

quote:

I am also not a woman and seek their experiences dealing with all this.


Hi Michael.  In my experience, many dominants seek poly relationships.  I do not.  I make it clear that if he is unable/unwilling/doesn't want monogamy, then he can't expect it from me.  Meaning, that although we may have a relationship, it will not be exclusive.  Most men do not like this approach and feel that they should be poly, yet the female should be loyal to them only.  I simply can't wrap my mind around a one-sided relationship.  I just scratch my head and seek a monogamous partner. 



CreativeDominant -> RE: Navigating Monogamy in a Sea of Poly (2/11/2009 2:15:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: feydeplume

I just want to chime in on the many shades of poly part of this. If you and your S.O. have a friend with benefits (sex, bondage, playtime, or any other sexual/deeply intimate acts) then that IS a form of poly. There is a relationship, friendship, between the parties, and there is a physically intimate act occurring with that friend.  There is also pressure on T/D/Ms and B/S/Ss to "play" with others in communities because the person has shown high skill with or at something and that is a form of "poly" pressure.

I guess for alot of people poly only means conventional sexual relations. I don't see it that way and I know a lot of other people see beating someone as a form of intimacy and potentially emotionally bonding.


For me, poly means not just conventional sexual relations but a dynamic and a relationship that extends beyond scening with each other and beyond friendship.  In a family manner, I tend to look at something like Knight and his girls' arrangement.  From what I've gathered from some on here, the term "poly" seems to be used a lot in ways that allow for "open" relationships and yet what is usually wanted is more of a casual involvement than an out and out relationship/dynamic wherein the 3rd party is involved somehow within the primary couple's day to day dealings.  Hence, the explanations I have come down to.



Andalusite -> RE: Navigating Monogamy in a Sea of Poly (2/11/2009 2:24:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied
I make it clear that if he is unable/unwilling/doesn't want monogamy, then he can't expect it from me.  Meaning, that although we may have a relationship, it will not be exclusive.  Most men do not like this approach and feel that they should be poly, yet the female should be loyal to them only. 

Or even more commonly, they want at least one woman, preferably more, to be involved with both them and their main partner, but don't want her to see another guy.



feydeplume -> RE: Navigating Monogamy in a Sea of Poly (2/11/2009 2:24:55 PM)

"For me, poly means not just conventional sexual relations but a dynamic and a relationship that extends beyond scening with each other and beyond friendship."

For me as well, poly means that they are part of my family, with or without the overt sexual contact. I just accept that there are more definitions of poly than the one i use with my M, and when talking to someone about open or poly or friends with benefits, I ask what THEY mean and what they expect to give and get from the relationship. I find it cuts down on unfulfilled expectations and hurt feelings.

As someone on here said "Poly is what you make of it" and i am not going to say someone else is "wrong" just because my definition of a continuum of relational styles is at a different point than theirs.



CreativeDominant -> RE: Navigating Monogamy in a Sea of Poly (2/11/2009 2:40:17 PM)

Agreed fey...this is another arena where a person has to go with what feels right to them in explaining their approach to things.  That is why I offered up the definitions I did to Michael with a caveat that these are what apply to ME and ME only. 
And because I agree that someone can be intertwined within a relationship in a familial manner without the sexual contact...such as you describe above...I would relate that as a poly situation also BECAUSE the person IS involved within the family relationship.



persephonee -> RE: Navigating Monogamy in a Sea of Poly (2/11/2009 2:47:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: feydeplume

I just want to chime in on the many shades of poly part of this. If you and your S.O. have a friend with benefits (sex, bondage, playtime, or any other sexual/deeply intimate acts) then that IS a form of poly. There is a relationship, friendship, between the parties, and there is a physically intimate act occurring with that friend.  There is also pressure on T/D/Ms and B/S/Ss to "play" with others in communities because the person has shown high skill with or at something and that is a form of "poly" pressure.

I guess for alot of people poly only means conventional sexual relations. I don't see it that way and I know a lot of other people see beating someone as a form of intimacy and potentially emotionally bonding.



i completely agree and have formed these types of relationships regularly. To me, it shouldnt really exclude me from creating a relationship with one Dominant outside of these dynamics, but i have run into D's who consider my existing relationships to be roadblocks...and have had some issues in trying to "explain" myself. Usually resulting in me banging my head against a tree and wandering away from him muttering under my breath...



AquaticSub -> RE: Navigating Monogamy in a Sea of Poly (2/11/2009 4:08:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: feydeplume

I just want to chime in on the many shades of poly part of this. If you and your S.O. have a friend with benefits (sex, bondage, playtime, or any other sexual/deeply intimate acts) then that IS a form of poly. There is a relationship, friendship, between the parties, and there is a physically intimate act occurring with that friend.  There is also pressure on T/D/Ms and B/S/Ss to "play" with others in communities because the person has shown high skill with or at something and that is a form of "poly" pressure.

I guess for alot of people poly only means conventional sexual relations. I don't see it that way and I know a lot of other people see beating someone as a form of intimacy and potentially emotionally bonding.



I do not regard friend's with benfits or scening as poly automatically. When I was single and had FWB, they were not partners, their opinions didn't factor into my life decisions more than any other person and, frequently, less than most of my friends. Some of the people I had sex with many times and I definately didn't have a relationship and that was exactly how we wanted it. One of them I could barely stand to talk to when he wasn't screwing me.

A friend with benfits may be a poly situation. But it isn't automatically so - I would assume open. Scening, in my book, doesn't even require the relationship to be open. Then again, you use the phrase deeply intimate. For me, sex, scening, etc are not, in and of themselves, deeply intimate acts.



feydeplume -> RE: Navigating Monogamy in a Sea of Poly (2/11/2009 4:11:03 PM)

i feel your pain. no really I have the dent in my forehead to prove it (and references! *wink*)



feydeplume -> RE: Navigating Monogamy in a Sea of Poly (2/11/2009 4:17:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub
A friend with benfits may be a poly situation. But it isn't automatically so - I would assume open. Scening, in my book, doesn't even require the relationship to be open. Then again, you use the phrase deeply intimate. For me, sex, scening, etc are not, in and of themselves, deeply intimate acts.


I agree completely. Just because I play with someone doesn't make them my lover. And depending on the type and setting of the scene, I also agree that it doesn't mean "open" or even "flexible for the right person".  I have been a demo bottom and that was in no way an emotional bond between me and anyone else in the class, nor did it mean i was open to being with any of them in any other way.

I think we are saying the same thing here; poly is as much mis-used word with various definitions for different people and groups. I know what i mean and now i have a sense of what you mean, but that doesn't mean I know what anyone else means when they say "poly".



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