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Jose Canseco - Baseball's Judas or Savior? - 2/9/2009 11:57:00 AM   
Mercnbeth


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Status: offline 		And now for something completely different...

Okay - I'm pretty sure that there are few avid baseball fans reading CM, but baseball is in my blood. Every year about this time, I long to have a glove and ball to toss around to 'loosen up' the old arm. That hasn't changed just because all the kids no longer require a catch partner or a coach.

Now Alex Rodriquez is the latest 'outed' steroid user. He'll officially admit it tonight in a broadcast interview with Peter Gammons that was taped this afternoon. Word from the NY Sports talk radio (I LOVE the internet providing access to that in LA) he's 'come clean' and from 2001-2003 he was 'on the juice'.

In my formative years it was Jim Bouton pulling back the curtain to give us a glimpse of my boyhood idols, Mickey Mantle, drunk, and peeping into hotel rooms. Back then, it was taking 'greenies' or pep pills to keep them going between double headers. Hell - in College those were commonly handed out like chick-lets (archaic reference) not just for the baseball team, but for anyone pulling 'all nighters' for finals week.

Similarly to Jose Canseco, Jim Bouton was perceived at the time as a joke, a jealous whistle blower, and a money grabbing fraud. Time passed, and it turned out that Bouton was only telling the truth. Mick himself admitted to everything Bouton exposed and his tombstone should say "what might have been..." as much as it says what he did. 

Now A-rod, is but one of 104 names confirming Jose Canseco's representation that more than just a few peripheral players used steroids. It looks like all the the names will come out at some point if not now - soon.

Should Jose be considered a Judas or will his disclosure serve to ultimately clean up a sport?

There is one other consideration. Under the circumstances of the times, who wouldn't be tempted? Who has the personal integrity to not take a performance enhancing drug, regardless of the risk, with the millions of dollars of reward at the other end of the performance? A 10 home run lead-off hitter hits 50 and their salary goes from $2 Million to $10. A career minor leaguer all of a sudden hits 95 MPH on his fast-ball and gets his shot.

I'll answer first - in 1977 (yup so long ago, that Roy White used the same training facility as I did as a college player.) if someone said to me; "damn you're a decent 3rd baseman, a good hitter, and have some skills; but to take it to the next level take this shot every other week, and I guarantee you'll get a major league contract." My ass would have been sticking up in the air, uncaring of the what was going in, or the delivery method. I don't like what that says, but at 21, the thought of getting liver cancer or any of the other side effects at 50 seemed like a fair trade off for one day's worth of living that boyhood dream.

These guys all have similar egos. Even the most talented envy the accomplishments of others, including their teammates. Seeing those teammates improve as a result of using a substance that, at the time, was neither illegal or subject to Baseball scrutiny would be very tempting.

Hey - it's almost spring - anyone want to talk Baseball?

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 2/9/2009 12:25:03 PM >
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RE: Jose Canseco - Baseball's Judas or Savior? - 2/9/2009 12:21:26 PM   
KatyLied


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quote:

Hey - it's almost spring - anyone want to talk Baseball?


A-Rod, I think he's getting crucified and I hope the player's union and/or the commish speak up for him.  And soon.  He should not have to do damage control on this mess.


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RE: Jose Conseco - Baseball's Judas or Savior? - 2/9/2009 12:25:43 PM   
domiguy


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Status: offline 		Merc, it is so sad what MLB allowed to happen to our game.   It is also true that the test given to "A-fraud" and the others was supposed to be kept confidential and was leaked, which is just another betrayal by a completely fucked up parent company, which is MLB.

Asteriks on everyone's name and accomplishments. It is time to start removing people/cheaters from the game.  It would be nice if there was some way to get a class action suite going....I would love to sit in Wrigley, for a game or two, free of charge which should be the penalty assessed to MLB for betraying my faith and pissing on a sport that is so steeped in history, tradition and the records that are passed on from one generation to the next based upon the concept of  honesty and fairplay.

Fuck A-rod.

At the end of the day, you do have to thank Jose Canseco for dragging this subject out into the light.  Whether his intent was honorable or just a money making ploy matters little at this point.  He will be remembered for helping to expose the problem.

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RE: Jose Conseco - Baseball's Judas or Savior? - 2/9/2009 12:38:01 PM   
KatyLied


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Status: offline 		My problem with A-Rod is that the test was promised to be anonymous and he was using before it was illegal to use.  Where is the crime?

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RE: Jose Conseco - Baseball's Judas or Savior? - 2/9/2009 12:48:28 PM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

My problem with A-Rod is that the test was promised to be anonymous and he was using before it was illegal to use.  Where is the crime?


I'm not 100% on this and don't care enought to google.  I believe that steroids are a controlled substance and were not legal to use in 2003.  Baseball simply did not have a proactive stance or a penalty for anyone who chose to take this path.  It doesn't mean that what A-rod did was legal just that baseball didn't care.

It only makes him a liar, hypocrite and he took a drug that altered his body and capabilities. 

No one outside of sports or the olympics gives a rats ass about steroids. It is only important in attempting to keep the playing field equal and the records of  these athletes untarnished as possible.

That the senate is looking into this matter is laughable as well as rather pathetic that baseball was unable/willing to police it's own.  What is even more laughable is the parade of ignorant, unremorseful assholes that have paraded before the senate and lied under oath.  The senate was not interested in the criminal activity of these "athletes" until they perjured themselves....Dickheads!

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RE: Jose Conseco - Baseball's Judas or Savior? - 2/9/2009 12:53:31 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

My problem with A-Rod is that the test was promised to be anonymous and he was using before it was illegal to use.  Where is the crime?
Well, if the source turns out to be anyone connected with the Federal investigation who are legally bound not to disclose the names on the list of 104 - that's potentially one crime - but I'd be surprised.

Most of these things come out as 'ego' or 'stupidity' getting in the way of common sense. The Union and MLB could have destroyed the 2003 tests. They were done to get to a 5% threshold to put testing into the next collective barganing agreement. Once that was accomplished could any good come from keeping them? Well, other than future 'blackmail' or 'extortion', sometimes refered to as a negotiating ploy, against either side - no.

This story provides a list of suspects if you want to check it out:

quote:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2009/02/08/2009-02-08_one_big_question_remains_who_ratted_out_.html 
  • THE PLAYERS ASSOCIATION Union officials knew the identities of the 104 players who tested positive,
  • MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALLOfficials in commissioner Bud Selig's office have limited knowledge of test results
  • PLAYERS AND TEAMMATES A-Rod may have shared the news of his positive test with friends, family, business associates, teammates or other players who later talked to SI reporters.
  • ALEX RODRIGUEZ A-Rod obviously didn't rat on himself, but he may have shared the news of his positive test with people he trusted or had relationships with, including friends and family, even his agents or trainers.
  • THE GOVERNMENTOther sources speculate the leak came from federal officials, perhaps frustrated BALCO prosecutors or investigators who have spent millions of tax dollars on a steroid investigation and have little to show for it. (Editorial: Somehow - those underlined parts don't surprise me!)


For Domi, check this out...

Union: 
quote:

We know that the players' union had an opportunity to destroy the 2003 survey testing, but inexplicably, did not. The union could have negotiated with the federal government to have investigators subpoena only the 2003 test samples for BALCO-involved players such as Bonds and Jason Giambi. But because the union appears to have overplayed its hand, the government succeeded in acquiring all of the 2003 samples.

Management:


quote:

What is unclear is whether the commissioner was specifically aware of the results of the anonymous testing. If Bud Selig did know the individual results, he knew that Bonds' 73 home runs were steroid-tainted, and that in touting Rodriguez to be the player to pass Bonds and restore glory to the home run record, he was willing to replace one steroid-fueled slugger with another, albeit one with a better reputation and nicer smile.

Source for both: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=bryant_howard&id=3891297

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 2/9/2009 12:55:14 PM >

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RE: Jose Conseco - Baseball's Judas or Savior? - 2/9/2009 1:16:10 PM   
domiguy


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Status: offline 		lol....For the majority of Americans it is a waste of taxpayers dollars. For a baseball fan it is still a waste but it appears that the Senate is finally gettiing some results which is a rare event for this body.

Baseball is complicit in the use of steroids.  It's time to put in some no nonsense policies and penalties for those that choose to cheat in this manner.

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RE: Jose Conseco - Baseball's Judas or Savior? - 2/9/2009 1:17:35 PM   
housesub4you


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Status: offline 		Nothing is going to clean up baseball until people stop watching and going to the games.  Something that will not happen.

Personally I really don't care if they use drugs, it's there body and baseball stopped being something special a long time ago and is nothng but big business now.  You have a bunch of whining millionaires complaining about being treated unfairly by the press when they suck, and sit on the bench.  You have all these dam lawyers writing contracts with so many dam clauses, no matter how bad they play they still make millions. 

I stopped go to the proball games a long time ago, there is a catus league park near my home and that is where I go and watch games.  Some dam good baseball without the $100 ticket, the $8 coke, the $12 Beer and the Dam $15 Smoky link.

It cost $10 to sit in the bleachers and that includes all the beer and hotdogs you want if you are in the adult section.

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RE: Jose Conseco - Baseball's Judas or Savior? - 2/9/2009 1:22:50 PM   
KatyLied


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quote:

Well, if the source turns out to be anyone connected with the Federal investigation who are legally bound not to disclose the names on the list of 104 - that's potentially one crime - but I'd be surprised.


I meant on A-Rod's side.  Someone is complicit in leaking the information.  And someone is complicit in the manner they conducted an anonymous survey.


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RE: Jose Conseco - Baseball's Judas or Savior? - 2/9/2009 1:31:50 PM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

Well, if the source turns out to be anyone connected with the Federal investigation who are legally bound not to disclose the names on the list of 104 - that's potentially one crime - but I'd be surprised.


I meant on A-Rod's side.  Someone is complicit in leaking the information.  And someone is complicit in the manner they conducted an anonymous survey.



It does suck to be "outed" in this manner....MLB has lost all control.

It is hard to feel sorry for Alex.  Just because you think that no one has access to the truth does not make the lie any better or more noble.

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RE: Jose Conseco - Baseball's Judas or Savior? - 2/9/2009 5:01:01 PM   
MasterShake69


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Status: offline 		Alex Rodriguez used a chemical in order to improve his abilities as an advantage over other players.  While many other players didn’t cheat the cheaters like Alex created an unfair advantage.  Sure it wasn’t against MLB rules but it was clearly unethical.


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RE: Jose Canseco - Baseball's Judas or Savior? - 2/9/2009 9:04:46 PM   
Vendaval


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Status: offline 		I think that there is far too much profit and fame in pro sports in general for real accountability on steroids, illegal drugs and other non-sanctioned activities. 

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RE: Jose Canseco - Baseball's Judas or Savior? - 2/10/2009 7:12:51 AM   
SilverMark


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Status: offline 		The most amazing thing with Canseco to me....he is the only one who told the truth...now granted, he may have embellished a few things and the man is detestable....but, HE TOLD THE TRUTH.....
I didn't want to believe him, not sure anyone did, but amazingly he was correct in many ways.
Merc, as a basketball player no growth hormone was going to make me 6'9 and no matter how hard I worked I wouldn't be tall enough to play beyond small college ball but, if someone came along and said hey....this will get you there...I would have dropped trou faster then a stripper surrounded by Pacman Jones' rain making crew!


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RE: Jose Canseco - Baseball's Judas or Savior? - 2/10/2009 7:46:36 AM   
ShhhImNotHere


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Status: offline 		how is it fair to the old timers holding records when some of the new players make and-or break records during the use of steroids, etc

but then again, if it was supposed to be confidential and before considered illegal, makes it a whole new ballgame (pun intended)

i only watch a little baseball though so what do i know

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RE: Jose Canseco - Baseball's Judas or Savior? - 2/10/2009 8:32:23 AM   
cjan


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Status: offline 		Proof of using performance enhancing drugs in any competitive sport should, imo, carry the death penalty, i.e., permanent ban from the sport. Zero tolerance. It makes "competition" a joke and demeans sport of it's purpose, both for athletes and for fans.

As to the OP, I think that, for various reasons, Canseco is a scumbag. A particularly self-serving scumbag. The fact that he told the truth regarding drug use doesn't change the fact that he is a weasel. He has demonstrated , throughout his career, that he never gave a shit about his team mates, the fans or the rules of the game. Giving Canseco credit for "saving baseball", would be like giving Sammy the Bull credit for bringing down Gotti.

Imo, the only way to restore integrity and fairness ( and meaning ) in sports is to apply the death penalty for the first proven violation.

< Message edited by cjan -- 2/10/2009 9:10:17 AM >

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RE: Jose Canseco - Baseball's Judas or Savior? - 2/10/2009 9:37:34 AM   
MasterShake69


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Status: offline 		Canseco caused baseballs steroid problem.  I remember back in the late 1980's everyone thought Jose was using steroids.  When Canseco traveled from team to team by being traded or signing as a free agent he would spread his knowledge of steroids.  All his new teammates would pepper him with questions.  Like Alex Rodriguez did when he asked JOSE-if one were to get steroids how would one go about getting it.  Then Jose gave Alex some contact information.
 
Baseball saw the cancer of steroids was being spread by Jose Canseco and basically black listed him.  The blacklisting preventing Canseco from reaching the 500 hr mark a feat Jose wanted to achieve.  In payback Jose wrote his tell all book about baseballs problems of steroid usage.  The one thing Jose never said in the book was that 99% of baseballs steroid problem was caused by JOSE CANSECO.


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RE: Jose Canseco - Baseball's Judas or Savior? - 2/10/2009 1:56:48 PM   
KatyLied


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quote:

I would have dropped trou faster then a stripper surrounded by Pacman Jones' rain making crew!


heh

I guess the biggest dilemma in all of this is how to book the records by players who are found guilty and/or admit to using steriods.  How do you account for all of those who are successfully masking? 

< Message edited by KatyLied -- 2/10/2009 1:57:17 PM >

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RE: Jose Canseco - Baseball's Judas or Savior? - 2/10/2009 2:05:56 PM   
Vendaval


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Status: offline 		Right, unless all the players are randomly tested on a regular basis how could such penalties be fairly enforced?

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RE: Jose Canseco - Baseball's Judas or Savior? - 2/10/2009 2:12:56 PM   
KatyLied


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Status: offline 		And random testing will not do much good if players are successfully masking.  I don't have the answer.  All of this is much easier on me because I watch sports for entertainment and drama (cough Dallas Cowboys cough).

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RE: Jose Canseco - Baseball's Judas or Savior? - 2/10/2009 2:15:44 PM   
Vendaval


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Status: offline 		How do they successfully mask anyways?  Is there some sort of antitdote?  I am not up on steroid information.

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"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

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