Economies struggling around the world/ Europe in similar situation as U.S. (Full Version)

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MzMia -> Economies struggling around the world/ Europe in similar situation as U.S. (1/25/2009 11:10:27 AM)

Many of us have been well aware we could be headed for a DEPRESSION, for some time
here in the U.S.A.

The situation appears to be far worse in Britain than MANY economists were predicting!
According to yesterday's Washington Post, the problems in Europe are as bad as in the U.S.A.
and possibly worse!

In recent days, many of the major banks in Europe, have had serious and massive losses.
Things are only getting seriously worse, hardly better.
According to the article in the Washington Post, Standard and Poor's has downgraded Spanish and Greek bonds, and it is warning that Ireland's bonds will be next.
The ripple effect appears like it will be effecting most of Europe, eventually.
We have many posters here from across the pond, I would like to get some updates on how their crumbling economies are affecting them and the changes they are noticing.
 
Downturn Accelerates As It Circles The Globe - washingtonpost.com

Most of the world's biggest economies {U.S.A., Europe, and Asia} are in serious trouble.
Even China, is experiencing a slowdown.
As China slows, the  United States, Japan and Europe are slowly sinking deeper into their collective "recessions".
 
It appears that the term "recession" may soon be called a "depression", in some area's of the world.
 
Hang on to your hat's folks, 11 months left in 2009, and the ride is only getting bumpier.



Raechard -> RE: Economies struggling around the world/ Europe in similar situation as U.S. (1/25/2009 11:46:13 AM)


The down turn is putting pressure onto the fabric of society i.e. the economy. This in turn is leading to extra stresses in the system and as a result of this we can expect to find the crumbling of the economy in various locations. Added to this is the credit crunch which is causing a third principle stress to be distributed through the fabric of society i.e. the now crumbling economy. Hopefully the characteristic strength of the fabric that society is made out of will be enduring enough to cope and so abate the crumbling situation.[8|]



JustDarkness -> RE: Economies struggling around the world/ Europe in similar situation as U.S. (1/25/2009 12:20:43 PM)

quote:

According to the article in the Washington Post, Standard and Poor's has downgraded Spanish and Greek bonds, and it is warning that Ireland's bonds will be next.


Looks like the washington post was sleeping...lol..it is already going on a while.
Many banks had relations and/or participated in the American banks and therefor they got hit hard.
People are beeing fired overhere...the goverment bought a bank....the price of houses just dropped 2% (which is strange.I expected a bigger drop)/people don't buy houses anymore though....companies can close for a month or can send people home on costs of the goverment..
Especially the building market (houses, roads) and the auto market got hit.
http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssFinancialServicesAndRealEstateNews/idUSLK3212720090120
(ps I think the crisis is good for some people to learn how to handle money...the times they could spend money not theirs is over)

In general in the Netherlands...we can't complain much..if I look at other European countries. It is said by the EU and our country itself that our economy will only drop 1~2% this year, which is not bad.



MzMia -> RE: Economies struggling around the world/ Europe in similar situation as U.S. (1/25/2009 12:36:34 PM)

Actually JustDarkness, we have been discussing the situation in Europe for months.
This is just an update, since situations do change from day to day and month to month.
 
I am not surprised that home prices are not dropping, because many people from all over the world
would LOVE to own property or homes in certain parts of Europe {especially the UK}.
 
I would love to know WHO is buying many of the homes in Europe days.
The homes many not be affordable for many of the "locals" to buy, but many people that are not "locals" would love to own a home in the UK.
Who wouldn't love to own a home in certain parts of Europe?
[;)]



JustDarkness -> RE: Economies struggling around the world/ Europe in similar situation as U.S. (1/25/2009 1:18:42 PM)

LOL

I sure not gonna pay 250.000 euro's for an average house that costs max. 100.000 euro to build.
That was one of the causes of the crisis. People spending money they don't have....and the banks invented nice systems for that.
People got greedy (the other greedy..lol) with houses...big cars..flat screens...because they money was easy to get...now they get punished.



susie -> RE: Economies struggling around the world/ Europe in similar situation as U.S. (1/25/2009 1:27:32 PM)

Actually house prices in the UK fell by an average of 16% during 2008 and are expected to drop by another 10% this year.



JustDarkness -> RE: Economies struggling around the world/ Europe in similar situation as U.S. (1/25/2009 1:56:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

Actually house prices in the UK fell by an average of 16% during 2008 and are expected to drop by another 10% this year.



wow that is a lott.
what does an average family house cost now?

--

about the car industry having it bad.

I am looking for a new car because I have to drive a lott for my work.
If I buy one now...some companies offer;
- a scooter for free
-pay taxes a whole year
-give a second small car for free
-pay maintenance for a year
-pay gas a whole year.

never saw that before.




Aneirin -> RE: Economies struggling around the world/ Europe in similar situation as U.S. (1/25/2009 5:24:44 PM)

According to the government, we in Britain are now oficially in a recession, cool, they finally noticed, but no worries our prime minister who used to be the chancellor of the exchequer is going to sort it all out, well, he should be best placed to do it, because it was his dabblings under blair that contributed to  the mess. An end to boom and bust they said, cool, we have had boom these past ten years, but now we are bust, and bust big time, so what was the small undulations of profit and loss, is now from a peak to a pot hole.

House prices have dropped perhaps nearer to their true value, this has enabled many a person who could not get on the housing ladder due to the extortionate greed driven house prices, to actually be able to aquire their first home, and not before time too, the best of luck to them. My place, a studio apartment, one room, the smallest of the small, tax banded at 40k, yet last year one sold for 165k, a few are up for sale now, at 80k and there is no interest, and this is a desireable low crime location overlooking water, namely the sea with fields and woodland around the other sides.

Oh, and for the first time in twenty years, unemployment is up to near two million with organisations shedding jobs everyday to cut costs. Methinks come a recovery from this quagmire, is it a possibility that all those who lost their  jobs due to cost cutting exercises and businesses going under will be once again gainfully employed, I think not, business the way it is, motivated by greed will push the workers to do more for less and let them be grateful they have a job. Create an employers market and the recession on a local level will last long after the government gives us the all clear, but then those in ivory towers are often isolated from the truth and seem ill equipped to care or even feel.

So what is it that has caused this disaster, could it perchance be greed, if it is, we are all going to see the error of our ways whether we like it or not



MzMia -> RE: Economies struggling around the world/ Europe in similar situation as U.S. (1/25/2009 5:37:00 PM)

I read an article that 150,000 jobs were lost in London last week.
I really had no idea, that the UK was being hit that hard.
Thanks for the update Aneirin.
 
Home prices may be dropping as they are in the US.
But try getting a mortgage, IF you have a job to buy one.
In the USA the requirements for getting a mortgage are a lot more stringent
than even a year ago.
Many lenders are looking for a 20% down payment.

Timeline: Britain's mounting job losses | Business | guardian.co.uk



Aneirin -> RE: Economies struggling around the world/ Europe in similar situation as U.S. (1/25/2009 5:53:58 PM)

I do believe some who are at last getting a foothold on the housing ladder are getting their funding from sources other than banks, families perhaps, much as some of the Asian members of our population appear to do, borrow from the family. Banks despite what our prime minister has donated of tax payer's money to get them lending again for business and private, seems not to have worked, they are holding onto 'their' cash and being ruthless with those that owe them, many householders with families amongst them, families whose bread winner might now be unemployed.

We over here in the UK our news, we do get to know some of what is happening in the US, the US more so than our neighbours in Europe.



MzMia -> RE: Economies struggling around the world/ Europe in similar situation as U.S. (1/25/2009 7:35:18 PM)

Well Aneirin, the world is becoming a lot smaller than many realize.
Economies are struggling around the world, so we appear to have a lot more
in common.
The UK, is in the same situation as many other countries.

'150,000 London jobs to go this year' | This is Money



popeye1250 -> RE: Economies struggling around the world/ Europe in similar situation as U.S. (1/25/2009 7:48:12 PM)

Sheffield, England used to be a big steel making area and a big manufacturer of cutlery but most is now made in China.
"It's the global economy, stupid!"
I don't know how companies can expect to outsource jobs to third world countries yet expect people in Europe and the U.S. to continue to buy their products on less take home pay.
Like Ross Perot said, "it's a race to the bottom."
We really do need to get out of all those "free trade" deals!
What was lunkhead McCain saying during the campaign; "I'm a "free trader!"
"No John, you're stupid!"
That's the problem in the U.S. and I suspect the E.U., too many people making $15 an hour when they should be making $30 or $40 an hour!
These days $15 an hour is "subsistance" level wages.



MzMia -> RE: Economies struggling around the world/ Europe in similar situation as U.S. (1/25/2009 7:55:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Sheffield, England used to be a big steel making area and a big manufacturer of cutlery but most is now made in China.
"It's the global economy, stupid!"
I don't know how companies can expect to outsource jobs to third world countries yet expect people in Europe and the U.S. to continue to buy their products on less take home pay.
Like Ross Perot said, "it's a race to the bottom."
We really do need to get out of all those "free trade" deals!
What was lunkhead McCain saying during the campaign; "I'm a "free trader!"
"No John, you're stupid!"
That's the problem in the U.S. and I suspect the E.U., too many people making $15 an hour when they should be making $30 or $40 an hour!
These days $15 an hour is "subsistance" level wages.


Great post Popeye!
You raise another valid point these days.
Very few people that lose their jobs, will get another one at the same salary.
I heard tonight on 60 minutes, that there are as many people that are underemployed,
part-time, marginally employed, etc. that have lost their jobs as the officially unemployed.
The official unemployment numbers may tell half the real stories at best.



ALAstella -> RE: Economies struggling around the world/ Europe in similar situation as U.S. (1/25/2009 11:21:12 PM)

This recession/depression/credit crunch has been inevitable for the past 20 or so years.

The thing is, when you set up a free exploitation, erm sorry, free market economy where you are encouraged to live way beyond your means on credit and you've got an economy based on earning and spending there's going to come a time when the credit limit is reached, people can't afford to spend any more, and people start losing jobs and going out of business because of a drop in trade.

All this has come about because we have been conditioned to think that making a profit is being successful, earning money makes us somewhat more socially acceptable, and where people who are not in this cycle of earning and spending are considered to be parasites and a burden on society. The myth of the taxpayer having the right to decide what their money is spent on. All along we have been discouraged from cooperating with each other, and have been encouraged to compete with one another.

This is why we have what we have now, a new class system - the profitable citizen and the unprofitable citizen. The profitable citizen doesn't care about the unprofitable citizen, and is usually pissed that the unprofitable citizen doesn't contribute to society like the profitable citizen does.

Example? Do you really want me to start writing about those trailer parks set up after Katrina?

The question I have been asking for the past 15-20 years, and I have never received a satisfactory answer, is that how can anyone expect a successful economic recovery when you got half of society trapped in poverty and debt on welfare, low pay and employment which isn't sustainable?

The system needs to change, and change PDQ. Instead of seeing growth and profit as success, we need to start thinking once again of success being a quality of life. This is the mark of civilization - how a society treats its sick, elderly and impoverished.

We need to start rebuilding society again, and our own economies, but from the very bottom of society and working up. Giving someone a pittance of a welfare check week in week out hasn't been working, nor has letting people sleep on the streets. If you don't give people legal opportunities to make things better for themselves then they're going to start looking for illegal opportunities.

Those male subs here are really coming up against dommes looking for tributes, which is a growth industry together with wheeling and dealing on e-Bay, going to boot sales with things which might have fallen off the back of a lorry, petty drug dealing, and so on. These are people who are trying to survive.

Here in Europe the writing was on the wall when the 10 Central and Eastern European countries joined the EU and rather than exploiting their economies and maxing out their consumer spending the emphasis changed into giving these people the relative freedom to head west to take on all the shitty minimum wage work in countries like the UK, Ireland, Sweden, etc - work which the indigent population can no longer afford to take on because they won't be able to pay off their mortgages, loans and credit card bills.

This strategy isn't working. This week I was reading on a Polish website that British farmers are begging Polish migrant workers not to leave. For some years Poles and other Eastern Europeans have been taking very low paid jobs in agriculture and food processing. Now the economy has taken a nose dive the Poles are leaving the UK in droves to work in Holland, Belgium and Sweden for better wages. They're leaving behind lots of really shitty low paid jobs that nobody wants and the farmers and food processing companies are now screwed, becaue they can't find anyone to do the work.

I'm going to go on record here and predict that this current recession is going to cause major problems for the European Union as a government and may even contribute to its eventual collapse. I have many reasons for believing this could happen, the strangulation of the pub trade in the UK through the smoking ban, the ridiculous directives concerning fresh produce which is causing Polish farmers - the largest producers of fruit and vegetables in Europe (most of which goes into food processing) to throw away tonnes of produce - again, like with the UK pub trade - to help the big European supermarket chains.

But it's important to remember that the only ones whinging about the recession, credit crunch and depression are those who are not getting the growth and profits they were expecting.

Notice how we're hearing a lot about job losses and not so much about corporate directors having to take drastic pay cuts.

Fortunately I'm not the Prime Minister. If I were the PM, the whole damn lot of them would be replacing the Polish migrant workers in the fields.

I better quit while I'm ahead...

stella
(proudly Marxist)



Lordandmaster -> RE: Economies struggling around the world/ Europe in similar situation as U.S. (1/26/2009 12:05:08 AM)

Wait, you mean the free market isn't going to solve this one?



Truthiness -> RE: Economies struggling around the world/ Europe in similar situation as U.S. (1/26/2009 1:27:58 AM)

Maybe if it were actually allowed to regulate itself, rather than have artificial regulations put on it, the free market might be able to fix this one.

Remove the government interference in this readjustment, you'd basicly replace the existing situation with another bad situation - that other situation being businesses with poor management and business models going bankrupt.



JustDarkness -> RE: Economies struggling around the world/ Europe in similar situation as U.S. (1/26/2009 3:28:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Truthiness

Maybe if it were actually allowed to regulate itself, rather than have artificial regulations put on it, the free market might be able to fix this one.

Remove the government interference in this readjustment, you'd basicly replace the existing situation with another bad situation - that other situation being businesses with poor management and business models going bankrupt.



personally I think the crisis is part of the self regulation. BAd structures collapse...
You can't spend money that isn't there. That counts for banks and their weird systems and people spending more then they earn.
The last years were way to good and people overdid it...buying huge cars....big houses....flatscreens...3 mobile phones..playstations...
All with money they didn't have. They will think twice next time..I hope.



Aneirin -> RE: Economies struggling around the world/ Europe in similar situation as U.S. (1/26/2009 4:01:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Truthiness

Maybe if it were actually allowed to regulate itself, rather than have artificial regulations put on it, the free market might be able to fix this one.

Remove the government interference in this readjustment, you'd basicly replace the existing situation with another bad situation - that other situation being businesses with poor management and business models going bankrupt.


Maybe I am incorrect, but that is what was done in the UK when Blair got into power, it is said within the first few days of his reign they deregulated the city, and set up a body to keep an eyeball on what was going on with the 'creative' money making types in the city. The trouble was the government funded body was as usual underfunded and they could not attract the right level of expertise to watch what was going on. That being so, what did go on the government body did not notice, they were clueless and inept.  The result was, as soon as the city was deregulated, the money makers spiralled out of control in pursuit of that elixir of life , quick and easy money. All the PM was interested in was growth figures, for it made it appear his way of doing things was working.

So allowing the market to regulate itself, come on, they here acted like Ums in a sweet shop, their greed propelling them.

Could it be said that where money is being made, trust is scarce ?



Dnomyar -> RE: Economies struggling around the world/ Europe in similar situation as U.S. (1/26/2009 4:46:46 AM)

Ok explain this to me. We bail out the banks and now they won't even lend money to each other. I live in an area of $100K homes. One sold last week for $18K. Others are going for 40K or less. My job just scaled back to a 4 day workweek. This is going to be a very rough year for everyone.



JustDarkness -> RE: Economies struggling around the world/ Europe in similar situation as U.S. (1/26/2009 7:07:53 AM)

It sure will be a rough year...they say we didn't even reach the peak....that is worrying.
on the radio I heard more then 3 times the normal amount of people request unemployment money...per week.
A big bank is firing 5000 people..other companies going from shift to normal day time work. Pretty scary.



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