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RE: submission and codependency - 1/20/2009 1:36:26 PM   
DrSysAdmin


Posts: 37
Joined: 12/6/2008
Status: offline 		I can't speak to the OP question of how to insure you don't end up in a bad situation. However, I will say as a D - its our job to not allow you that, but rather work with you to insure that you are rather independant - and choosing your submission or slavery to us vs. being trapped into it.

(in reply to Icarys)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: submission and codependency - 1/20/2009 1:51:06 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys
So I challenge the idea that co-dependency is all bad. A lot of what we take for granted in everyday life is dependency yet because it's done by the masses it's okay and healthy.



There is a difference between Co-dependency and Inter-dependency.  One is from a position of weakness.. the other from a position of strength.  Dependeny in of itself is not a bad thing.... the manner that such dependency evolves and grows is what will determine its affect on the well-being of those involved.

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 1/20/2009 2:15:00 PM >

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Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Icarys)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: submission and codependency - 1/20/2009 2:07:40 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Opalescence
I'm codependent in my relationships and quite happy about it. As a slave, I think you have to be.

Nope.  I can assure you a slave doesn't "have to be" codependent.  Some may choose to be but not everyone "has to be."  I was codependent in my former marriage.  I am soooooo not that way now and never will choose to be again because it IS a choice.  I don't choose such dysfunction anymore................luci

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: submission and codependency - 1/20/2009 2:27:26 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DrSysAdmin

I can't speak to the OP question of how to insure you don't end up in a bad situation. However, I will say as a D - its our job to not allow you that, but rather work with you to insure that you are rather independant - and choosing your submission or slavery to us vs. being trapped into it.


Well.. I didn't know that D's had a Job description!  Maybe you could provide some qualified references that point out what the Job of D is.

Secondly.... Maintaining Independency in an M/s relationship will often be contrary to a successful relationship.   Many seem to have an Irrational Fear on losing their independence and identity with entering into a M/s dynamic.  Some Dominants even like to project that they will not threaten submissive person's independence as they enslave them.  The irony and contradiction is often lost in the illusion they are trying to spin.  The reality is that intimat relationships (and not just M/s dynamics) do indeed have dependencies tht come with them.  The question is to be able to contructively develop inter-dependent constructs that are healthy and enhancing for the well-being of those involved and avoid co-dependent dynamics that are often so destructive to people's emotional and mental well-being.

Become a slave..... you will lose Independence and your identity as you know it today.  But so will the Master.  But the challenge is developing inter-dependent contructs that will replace the lost of independence and identity.

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Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to DrSysAdmin)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: submission and codependency - 1/24/2009 9:08:14 AM   
DrSysAdmin


Posts: 37
Joined: 12/6/2008
Status: offline 		KoM -

I think we will simply have to agree to disagree on many things. I speak on things the way I see them, and if you construe those views to be "global" or general statements - thats up to you. Often it is worded that way, because thats how I personally see it based on the way I think and my own experience.

Now - with that said - you bring up 2 issues. First, the "I didn't know that D's had a Job description!" note in context of its reply to my earlier statement. While I will grant that there is no definitive manual that can encompass every facet and cover every situation, the comment seems to imply that a Dominand should feel no sense of responsibility to the ones they own. Having read enough of your postings here, I doubt that you meant it that way. However, that's not my concern as your life and theirs are - yours and theirs. I do think personally that every Dominant has a deep responsibility to one he claims as his own to push them to grow in many areas - both here and in the nilla world.  In my view, and I accept that my view is my own (though the world would be better off it adopted my views LOL), it is by encouraging such growth that trust and its associated bonds grow deeper and deeper.

As for a slave or submissive being codependent vs interdependant - there is a huge difference. One way I have stated it is I choose to both tear down and build up my own in such a way that they can stand on their own in any situation - but yet their heart, soul and mind are always at my feet. Does this make them co-dependant? No - because they choose to be owned and guided by me. I personally won't live forever, so to allow a Pet to intertwine her own identity to my own to the point she loses her own individuality - is counterproductive to what I would want for her. I choose instead to make sure mine are independant enough to be without me - and allow their devotion to be what keeps them close, vs allowing a situation where they could not walk away were it necessary.

I had a peer and friend who, due to having cancer that he knew would be ultimately fatal, released and sent away his one slave to "spare her" the ordeal of watching him waste away and die. While I know why he did so, I learned alot from that episode. He had allowed her to wrap her entire life into him without looking out for the "what if" - and while his motive was good - the result was 2 lives lost, though in different ways. The girl was forced away, and was totally unable to cope with being independant - she had so totally lost herself in him that she was incapable of standing on her own. Her life is now a total shambles from what I understand, made so much the worse since his passing.

I didn't agree with the decision he made, but each has their own life to lead. However, I speak strongly on this because I have seen what can result when safeguards are not taken. I might have a heart attack or stroke today, you may get in a car wreck and be killed tommorow, Ironbear or any other on here might have some other thing happen that incapacitates permenantly or slays them. God forbid something like those things happen - but life offers no such guarantees. Because of that - codependency should NOT ever be allowed by any Dom - and yes - that is a blanket statement. Sure, some may disagree - and they have the right, but  I stand by the statement that we have a responsibility to those we accept to insure they are cared for in the healthiest way - and that includes insuring that they do not become so utterly dependant on us that they could not survive or function without us.

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: submission and codependency - 1/24/2009 9:33:02 AM   
hopelessfool


Posts: 988
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		DrSys:

i think theirs healthy co dependency and unhealthy co dependency, say we have a scene, we are both dependent on the other to make sure the scene is safe for both of us. You might not notice that the ropes you tied were to tight, and im fully dependent on telling you they are and you fixing them. you are fully dependent on me agree to you tying me up in the first place.
the same with orders and in general living and being with somoene as close as this life allows and demands two people to be to be in a healthy relationship theres just no way one can not be codependant on their partner HOWEVER there is being healthy where its benifical too us both where it helps us both and being unhealthy where the codependancy is to far to one side or the other, and its damaging due to self esteem issue or self worth issues  or simple unability to cope issues i can and should always be able to support myself physically and mentally... however emotionallywhen theres another person tied to said emotions and teres another person who in a way causes said emotions i fully admit i become dependant on my partner and in a situation where you have roles arent you dependant on your partner to fullfill their part of the role, Can i honestly be a submissive if my dom isnt doing his job as a dom. Can He honestly be a dom with me if im not doing my job as his sub? While I perfectly able to leave my Dom, and find a new one, it doesnt change the fact im still going to be dependent on that dom to be my dom as well. I can still live and survive and thrive on my own, im still able to make life altering decisions for my self but im still going to be dependent on my dom to be my dom, and to do his half of our relationship.

Its all about learning to deal with co dependency in a healthy way.


_____________________________

" I have nothing left to give, I have found the perfect end, You remain to make it hurt, disappear in to the dirt, carry me to heavens arms.....Dear Agony Just let go of me, suffer slowly, is this the way its gotta be, Dear Agony...."

(in reply to DrSysAdmin)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: submission and codependency - 1/24/2009 10:11:42 AM   
DrSysAdmin


Posts: 37
Joined: 12/6/2008
Status: offline 		hopelessfool

Your right my dear! I meant this in the sense of the entire relationship - though your absolutely dead on in specific situations and your second point of "dependant on your D being your D" is that interdependance that I think KoM and I actually agree on. Well said! (And for the record - you convey your thoughts well - that alone should give you hope if you ever need it.)

(in reply to hopelessfool)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: submission and codependency - 1/24/2009 10:26:43 AM   
antipode


Posts: 1787
Joined: 4/19/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I'm codependent in my relationships and quite happy about it. As a slave, I think you have to be.


Opal, I believe that is exactly right. It is not necessary for there to be co-dependence, but if it is appropriate anywhere, I would almost say useful, it is on the s end of D/s. Good for you. I believe that the subs and slaves who question or fear the concept may not be /s - and I am saying that because I have experienced a couple.

(in reply to Opalescence)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: submission and codependency - 1/24/2009 6:43:30 PM   
feydeplume


Posts: 935
Joined: 12/24/2008
Status: offline 		emotional co-dependency and the various ways money can play into co-dependency (money=power=control=responsibly=vulnerability=abuse) are serious things and Kudos to you for recognizing that these are issues for you that you want to work on and not have destroy or damage this relationship.
A few suggestions: Therapy group or one on one, can help you deal with the baggage that you might have from the past so that it doesn't poison the present. If you D isn't co-dependent, he might be able to call you on it when you do it and make it part of your dynamic and "training". If you are already pretty good at catching yourself when you get into "bad" habits, make a new habit of fessing up every time you catch yourself so your D knows what to look for and can praise you for being "good". Sometimes the silly ideas work better than the complex grown up ones, so brain storm with your D and your friends about things you can do to catch yourself and to praise yourself when you don't give in to bad habits.

just my (borrowed) 2 cents.


_____________________________

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(in reply to antipode)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: submission and codependency - 1/25/2009 4:46:35 PM   
Heulwen


Posts: 19
Joined: 11/18/2008
Status: offline 		Thanks feydeplume and DrSys!  Regarding the issue of whether codependency in M/s is a problem:  well, I won't speak in generalities but I will say that for me codependence has been destructive for myself, my partners and my relationships, and if I bring it into my future it will continue to act as a poison.  Others' mileages may vary.  I choose to submit in a way that gives my Master a whole and functional person who can be trusted to identify and communicate her discomforts and basic needs honestly and promptly.  Or at least that's the goal. *smile*  Therapy is in my future.

(in reply to feydeplume)
Profile   Post #: 30
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