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RE: MTF TS and gender roles - 1/14/2009 5:07:14 PM

MistressLamia

Posts: 36
Joined: 5/27/2008
Status: offline

You have all misunderstood me. My statements are based on hard science of which I studied for many years in school. Medically anyone with male or female genes is that sex. It's just a fact of nature. I do not object to anyone living as they want. Get that through all your heads. And until any of you prove that sexual genetics can be changed I will continue to believe you are only what your genetics make you.

And to Lockit who says I would abuse anyone that is something you made up. If a person has male genitallia how can I do anything but use it? It exists. I would never ignore another person sexually. It's not my way. Please stop making comments about me personally as I have never met you or spoken to you before this time.

In the intrests of saving all of us aggrevation I will cease reading or responding to this thread. If any of you wish to continue argueing against fact, well you have my best wishes.

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Post #: 21

RE: MTF TS and gender roles - 1/14/2009 5:14:45 PM

ThundersCry

Posts: 892
Status: offline

A fiesty one...`ey...

Welcome to the boards...

(in reply to MistressLamia)

Post #: 22

RE: MTF TS and gender roles - 1/14/2009 5:22:02 PM

feydeplume

Posts: 935
Joined: 12/24/2008
Status: offline

*sigh* and i was just about to ask where the XXY and XYY fit in the "only male and female" schema, let alone those that express both forms of genitalia.

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Post #: 23

RE: MTF TS and gender roles - 1/14/2009 5:23:20 PM

Lockit

Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
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I guess those things were left out of years of scientific study!

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Post #: 24

RE: MTF TS and gender roles - 1/14/2009 5:23:22 PM

ALAstella

Posts: 253
Joined: 12/3/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressLamia

You have all misunderstood me. My statements are based on hard science of which I studied for many years in school. Medically anyone with male or female genes is that sex. It's just a fact of nature. I do not object to anyone living as they want. Get that through all your heads. And until any of you prove that sexual genetics can be changed I will continue to believe you are only what your genetics make you.

And to Lockit who says I would abuse anyone that is something you made up. If a person has male genitallia how can I do anything but use it? It exists. I would never ignore another person sexually. It's not my way. Please stop making comments about me personally as I have never met you or spoken to you before this time.

In the intrests of saving all of us aggrevation I will cease reading or responding to this thread. If any of you wish to continue argueing against fact, well you have my best wishes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaicism

The above link is a Wikipedia article on mosaicism, something quite fundamental to a science known as biology, which is a science - if I'm not mistaken - taught in elementary school.

You can also google the medical condition as gender dysphoria.

Not sure of the 'hard science' studied by MistressLamia at school, unless of course she went to school a very long time ago.

Personally I feel her bowing out of the thread here speaks volumes.

(in reply to MistressLamia)

Post #: 25

RE: MTF TS and gender roles - 1/14/2009 5:28:23 PM

Lockit

Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressLamia

You have all misunderstood me. My statements are based on hard science of which I studied for many years in school. Medically anyone with male or female genes is that sex. It's just a fact of nature. I do not object to anyone living as they want. Get that through all your heads. And until any of you prove that sexual genetics can be changed I will continue to believe you are only what your genetics make you.

And to Lockit who says I would abuse anyone that is something you made up. If a person has male genitallia how can I do anything but use it? It exists. I would never ignore another person sexually. It's not my way. Please stop making comments about me personally as I have never met you or spoken to you before this time.

In the intrests of saving all of us aggrevation I will cease reading or responding to this thread. If any of you wish to continue argueing against fact, well you have my best wishes.

I guess a cock is just a cock and must be used... no matter the emotional pain you could cause one who does not think or feel or is acutally only male, not by your standards but by the medical and scientific communities... who have studied, I am sure, longer than you have.

If your sexual attentions were wanted... cool... but if one who identifies as female doesn't wish to have sex as a male... you would be doing harm.

I will speak anyway I wish to, whenever I wish to. You posted your opinion, I posted mine... that's the way it works on a message board. I don't have to meet you to respond to something you say and give my thoughts on it.

_____________________________

No matter how old a woman gets, some men will think she was born yesterday! ROFL... I love this place!

(in reply to MistressLamia)

Post #: 26

RE: MTF TS and gender roles - 1/14/2009 5:30:43 PM

Madame4a

Posts: 2045
Joined: 2/4/2008
From: Washington, DC area
Status: offline

brava

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressLamia

You have all misunderstood me. My statements are based on hard science of which I studied for many years in school. Medically anyone with male or female genes is that sex. It's just a fact of nature. I do not object to anyone living as they want. Get that through all your heads. And until any of you prove that sexual genetics can be changed I will continue to believe you are only what your genetics make you.

And to Lockit who says I would abuse anyone that is something you made up. If a person has male genitallia how can I do anything but use it? It exists. I would never ignore another person sexually. It's not my way. Please stop making comments about me personally as I have never met you or spoken to you before this time.

In the intrests of saving all of us aggrevation I will cease reading or responding to this thread. If any of you wish to continue argueing against fact, well you have my best wishes.

I guess a cock is just a cock and must be used... no matter the emotional pain you could cause one who does not think or feel or is acutally only male, not by your standards but by the medical and scientific communities... who have studied, I am sure, longer than you have.

If your sexual attentions were wanted... cool... but if one who identifies as female doesn't wish to have sex as a male... you would be doing harm.

I will speak anyway I wish to, whenever I wish to. You posted your opinion, I posted mine... that's the way it works on a message board. I don't have to meet you to respond to something you say and give my thoughts on it.

_____________________________

You're crazy bitch
But you f*ck so good, I'm on top of it
When I dream, I'm doing you all night
Scratches all down my back to keep me right on

(in reply to Lockit)

Post #: 27

RE: MTF TS and gender roles - 1/14/2009 5:41:00 PM

enslavedrose

Posts: 7
Joined: 1/10/2009
Status: offline

rose is saying that it's wrong to group MTF TS's in with men out of general principle. Wow, rose hit the jackpot here. usually things rose says dont get nearly this much response. I just want to respond to a few people. First of all, Lockit, thank You. rose thouight You made very good points. Second of all, MistressLamia, rose does not think ill of You at all for believing what You do. No matter what yhour scientific thoughts are, You're accepting and thats the bottom line. Stella....this is a conversation, is rose the only one not allowed to discuss this?

< Message edited by enslavedrose -- 1/14/2009 5:57:58 PM >

(in reply to enslavedrose)

Post #: 28

RE: MTF TS and gender roles - 1/14/2009 5:45:34 PM

ALAstella

Posts: 253
Joined: 12/3/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: enslavedrose

rose is saying that it's wrong to group MTF TS's in with men out of general principle.

stella did write in posting 5 that some people just won't get it and reminds rose of this fact

(in reply to enslavedrose)

Post #: 29

RE: MTF TS and gender roles - 1/14/2009 5:46:25 PM

DominaSmartass

Posts: 961
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: This month? Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressLamia

I believe you are what you are geneticly. So rose, if you were born a little boy you will be male the rest of your life no matter what you do. However, if in your personal life you rather be called a woman you should be. As long as you are a good and decent person you should live as you see fit.

As a person I would treat you as a woman. As a Domme I would use you as a male if you still have that "equiptment" but refer to you as female.

I find this point of view insulting. Particularly the last line. From all of my experiences, if someone identifies as male-to-female transgender, she most likely has issues ranging from disinterest/ambivalence all the way to extreme disgust/hatred for the male genitals (assuming she is pre-op) so why would you think you, as a Domme should get a say in how that equipment is used? I suppose you meant if the person were your submissive, but I don't know any transpeople who'd allow themselves a dom who didn't fully accept them as the gender they identify as.

Sorry if I come off as a bitch here but it's a real personal hot button.

_____________________________

“These S&M people ... they are bossy! There’s also a creepy connection between leather sex, ‘Star Trek’ and the Renaissance Faire.”

- Comedian Margaret Cho

(in reply to MistressLamia)

Post #: 30

RE: MTF TS and gender roles - 1/14/2009 5:50:02 PM

RedMagic1

Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline

It's wrong to have separate restrooms marked "Colored." I don't, however, consider it wrong to own a consensual slave. One is an issue of politics and society; the other is a private matter, regarding a private relationship.

As another example, there are feminist female subs, and feminist male doms. Wanting to humiliate women in private doesn't mean you want them exploited in society.

Are you concerned that your options are limited because lots of guys put "biological women only" on their profiles? I don't see you changing that. Perhaps you could do volunteer work at your local queer rights organization. That's the only way I can see to change the wrong-ness of things. Long-term struggle.

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(in reply to enslavedrose)

Post #: 31

RE: MTF TS and gender roles - 1/14/2009 5:55:57 PM

DominaSmartass

Posts: 961
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: This month? Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Madame4a

Its really a shame you can't honor another's gender identity... regardless of how they were born ...

I have way too many FtMs in my life that you would never realize were ever born women ... what then?

I wanted to raise this point too but she's gone now so sadly won't be around for a rebuttal. Still, just in case anyone is out there....

...What about cases where you cannot tell the difference? Many trans people look quite natural as their chosen gender, thank you very much, so are you planning on carrying around a pocket genetic test before you choose to get into a relationship with someone? There are those out there who don't even carry the label mtf or ftm but simply male/female and you might never know, depending on how much of their body you see and how good the surgeon was.

Take this hot guy for example:
www.buckangel.com
Anyone gonna call him "she" ?

_____________________________

“These S&M people ... they are bossy! There’s also a creepy connection between leather sex, ‘Star Trek’ and the Renaissance Faire.”

- Comedian Margaret Cho

(in reply to Madame4a)

Post #: 32

RE: MTF TS and gender roles - 1/14/2009 6:01:34 PM

GreedyTop

Posts: 52100
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From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline

yummmm

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(in reply to DominaSmartass)

Post #: 33

RE: MTF TS and gender roles - 1/14/2009 6:01:55 PM

Aszhrae

Posts: 1030
Joined: 3/31/2008
Status: offline

Those that are XXY or YYX, I theorize as being chimaera. It is when your hair has one type of DNA and your blood has a different DNA. Now I am not sure about anyone's circumstances but what is medical opinion of my doctor is that inherited part of my genetic anomaly from my twin when she died in the womb. I only know that I would have been born a twin by the doctor that delivered me and he is now retired. Now I am not sure what someone's circumstances that determines how they perceive themselves as being, my self included. The identity of an individual can not continue if they feel as though they are living a lie.
To say that you are born one way and you should remain that way, sounds to me like right wing fundamentalism of the worst kind. Suppose its better that the individual in question continues through life in doubt of their own identity. That such individuals should continue being angry at the world or having tendencies towards self-destruction just to be as society decides what is best for them.
Circumstances are different for everyone. Each of us are individuals. Perhaps for whomever an individual considers most high, how an individual lives their life might be that such transformation is something that is meant to happen for them. And for the athiest that does not believe in anything but personal goals because in the end they are just worm food, its your body, do with it what you will, so long as it makes you happy.
Now for those of us that believe ourselves to female. We are as that is how our minds are wired. A belief that we are wrong, square peg trying to fit into a round hole, and the individual just wants to be round.

If an individual has the appendage and they are currently going through the transformation process and would thus be used as a male. Is it even considered what kind of damage that might do to the individuals identity since identity is something that is struggled with on a daily basis by external influences? Or does the individual even care in using someone the way they do not like or want to be treated?

Now since I am pre-op and out on the street and most people I encounter hardly question. If someone were to play with me other than me being female. I would probably tell them,'go to hell'.
As for the situation on the bus that stella encountered and just ignored, that was probably the best thing she could have done since it was, 'mob mentality' which can not be reasoned with even in the best of circumstances.

Can only state, in my own belief, you can inform, but if an individual chooses to remain ignorant, best to just walk away.

_____________________________

To my own self, I be true.

Goddess bless and keep you and yours safe

Ricah-Azzh

(in reply to ALAstella)

Post #: 34

RE: MTF TS and gender roles - 1/14/2009 6:19:16 PM

DominaSmartass

Posts: 961
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: This month? Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aszhrae

Those that are XXY or YYX, I theorize as being chimaera. It is when your hair has one type of DNA and your blood has a different DNA.

Interesting, I don't know about that...I looked up "chimera" and seems there have only been 40 reported human cases, ever, so I don't think it's very likely it's responsible for transgenderism.

I do know XXY is known as Klinefelter syndrome and XYY seems to produce mostly "normal" males who do not know that they have an extra Y chromosome, so can't really be blamed for gender disorders.

Here's the link for more info
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics)

_____________________________

“These S&M people ... they are bossy! There’s also a creepy connection between leather sex, ‘Star Trek’ and the Renaissance Faire.”

- Comedian Margaret Cho

(in reply to Aszhrae)

Post #: 35

RE: MTF TS and gender roles - 1/14/2009 6:19:36 PM

Madame4a

Posts: 2045
Joined: 2/4/2008
From: Washington, DC area
Status: offline

Because we only have the written word here, it would be good if you tried, with words, to help us understand you. When I am misunderstood, I try very hard to reword, answer questions, and specifically address the points that seem to be missed. Sometimes however, it just means that someone disagrees with me, but in the end, its my responsibility to try to make myself understood. Again, I think it helps to sometimes answer the questions posed by those who seem to misunderstand me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressLamia

You have all misunderstood me. My statements are based on hard science of which I studied for many years in school. Medically anyone with male or female genes is that sex. It's just a fact of nature. I do not object to anyone living as they want. Get that through all your heads. And until any of you prove that sexual genetics can be changed I will continue to believe you are only what your genetics make you.

And to Lockit who says I would abuse anyone that is something you made up. If a person has male genitallia how can I do anything but use it? It exists. I would never ignore another person sexually. It's not my way. Please stop making comments about me personally as I have never met you or spoken to you before this time.

In the intrests of saving all of us aggrevation I will cease reading or responding to this thread. If any of you wish to continue argueing against fact, well you have my best wishes.

_____________________________

You're crazy bitch
But you f*ck so good, I'm on top of it
When I dream, I'm doing you all night
Scratches all down my back to keep me right on

(in reply to MistressLamia)

Post #: 36

RE: MTF TS and gender roles - 1/15/2009 9:26:52 AM

enslavedrose

Posts: 7
Joined: 1/10/2009
Status: offline

XYY I read once as the "violence chromasome." Males who have it are supposedly more agressive. XXY does have something to do with being intersexed probably, but I havent read about its connection with Transgenderism

(in reply to Madame4a)

Post #: 37

RE: MTF TS and gender roles - 1/15/2009 10:29:35 AM

Amaros

Posts: 1363
Joined: 7/25/2005
Status: offline

It might be easier if you think of the brain as being "sexed"just like the body - it is certainly not inconceivable, at least to me, that one might have one's body sexed one way, your brain another - much of what sexual attraction is is a function of visual, aural, olfactory signals, i.e., it's your brain telling your body how to react based on responses to external input, not the other way around.

All fetus's start out female, a jolt of hormones at a certain stage of development masculinizes the fetus or not - given all the other things that can occur in the complex and relatively precision process of gestation, I cannot imagine why anybody should think that this process is somehow immune to a certain amount of variation, mistiming, etc.

Given that physical transgenderism is not uncommon, it's not pushing the thing very far to speculate that psychological transgenderism is equally, and probably more common, but we assign gender according to our own personal responses to external data/perception, i.e., visual, aural, olfactory input, etc. - we can't see, hear, or smell your brain so we go by what we do see is all.

One can, theoretically, extrapolate physiological gender by observing behavior, while on the flip side, this is often complicated by very strict ritualistic reptilian behavioral expectations that can distort perception and result in pathological emotional responses to conflicting data - cognitive dissonance it's called, and for the most part, people will defer to their physical responses, mental response and conflict resolution tends to lag considerably, or may be altogether absent.

In truth, we all have more or less the same array of behaviors, the respective sexes will generally simply be biased towards one subset or the other, due to hormonal influence - if you have a male body and female pituitary system, you're gonna see things differently, that's all.

< Message edited by Amaros -- 1/15/2009 10:35:27 AM >

(in reply to enslavedrose)

Post #: 38

RE: MTF TS and gender roles - 1/15/2009 11:51:00 AM

Aszhrae

Posts: 1030
Joined: 3/31/2008
Status: offline

quote:

n truth, we all have more or less the same array of behaviors, the respective sexes will generally simply be biased towards one subset or the other, due to hormonal influence - if you have a male body and female pituitary system, you're gonna see things differently, that's all.

I would have to agree with the above quote of what Amaros posted.
I would also think genetic abnormalities would also have a role in external perception. Some abnormalities are much more difficult to reveal but they also exist and influence behavior.

_____________________________

To my own self, I be true.

Goddess bless and keep you and yours safe

Ricah-Azzh

(in reply to Amaros)

Post #: 39

RE: MTF TS and gender roles - 1/15/2009 2:38:22 PM

beargonewild

Posts: 22716
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressLamia

rose did not say he was born with a birth defect or any other genetic abnormality. he is just someone who is most comfortable living as a woman. I can wear all the eyeliner I want and call myself a racoon but I will geneticly never be one. Likewise, rose will never be any more or any less than what genes he was born with. Please do not mistake my feeling he is male as my disaproving of him in any way because I do not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

If that is so, then what about people who are intersexed? There are many who are born with both male and female DNA and with both male and female genitalia. They are the ones who have the toughest time trying to be who they think should be plus dealing with society which is quite narrow minded.
I know several people who, as they state, are a female trapped in a male body. I see them as they wish to be seem and this is not to be patronizing or feeding their delusions, it is me showing them respect as a person when nature made a slight glitch.

MistressLamia, my intent was to ask a valid and hopefully intelligent question to a statement I quoted. It was in no way a slam against your post, nor was it an assumption on how rose gender identification. I did not imply that you were disproving and if my post wasn't quite clear and concise then I apologize. I was simply going by what rose had written, I did not view rose's profile thus I did not presume rose's gender identity.

eta: I believe that I shall walk away from any further contributions on this topic

< Message edited by beargonewild -- 1/15/2009 2:40:43 PM >

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Post #: 40

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