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Crime and Punishment (Serious Post) - 1/11/2009 1:14:08 PM   
gbperv


Posts: 6
Joined: 11/22/2008
Status: offline 		So I have a question, somewhat hypothetical, but based in real experiences. On a few occasions in talking with, meeting and playing with others in the polyamorous / swinger and BDSM scenes, we've run into illegal activities. Not talking about drug use or minor infractions, and also not about extremely serious crimes like child abuse, real rape, etc... but theft, drug dealing, fraud, prostitution, etc. When it has gotten uncomfortable for us, we've just politely excused ourselves, stopped contact, etc.

Have others run into these sort of situations, and how have you dealt with them? On one hand, nobody likes a tattle-tale, but on the other hand, there are many professionals in these lifestyles, people who must keep discreet, and of course those who really don't want a visit from the police! What's the etiquette for raising flags among others in the community to watch out for dangerous situations?




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RE: Crime and Punishment (Serious Post) - 1/11/2009 1:23:35 PM   
CatdeMedici


Posts: 2257
Joined: 10/20/2008
Status: offline 		First of all it isn't just professionals who need to maintain privacy-- most people in this life have something to lose if their faces were plastered on the 11 o'clock news.
 
Only you can make the decision how much is enough outside the obvious--just be prepared as you expose, so are you exposed.
 
Walk away and don't associate with those people again.

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RE: Crime and Punishment (Serious Post) - 1/11/2009 1:23:38 PM   
needngreed


Posts: 8
Joined: 1/6/2009
Status: offline 		If you are lucky to live in a place where there is a "Hot Tip" anonymous hotline to call and you feel that it warrants a call, then use it.  I find that no matter how small the crime, it's still hurting someone, and the legal system has made it easy for us to tip them off.  You may not be the only one doing it, and know that if you aren't, they are more apt to take you seriously and get the criminal off the streets or get them help.  In any case, you and your family are much safer because of it.

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RE: Crime and Punishment (Serious Post) - 1/11/2009 1:24:27 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		Pretty much anything can be deemed 'illegal' in wiitwd.
Every been spanked?  Whipped?  Bruised?  Had your photograph taken of you in a compromising position without signing a release?
 
You can't 'warn' others just because you don't agree on a moral or ethical grounds.  Trying to warn people of others or of other situations you do not like is pretty poor.  If you do not like something as you say, just politely excuise yourself.  But don't police others when it's not wanted, needed or even appropriate.  As long as the people all agree it's all cool.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Crime and Punishment (Serious Post) - 1/11/2009 1:27:54 PM   
colouredin


Posts: 4279
Joined: 2/2/2007
Status: offline 		Im with the.darkness on this one. Most of the BDSM activities that many of us engage in are indeed illegal in many places. Its hard to distinguish.

Therefore I have run into lots and lots of illegal stuff and I do nothing. If someone is into something that I am not well then i either tell them im not into it or dont get involved. Its got nowt to do with how professional you are, no one wants the police knocking on their door.

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RE: Crime and Punishment (Serious Post) - 1/11/2009 1:39:17 PM   
lronitulstahp


Posts: 5392
Joined: 10/17/2007
Status: offline 		Theft, drug dealing, fraud???? WTF? RUN!!! Quickly! 

Maybe you should change how you determine people are suitable for play, meeting etc.  It seems your current methods are somewhat lacking.  Perhaps asking or telling people up front which sorts of behaviors you find intolerable would help.  You can't expect other people to respect your boundaries if you haven't spelled them out explicitly.  Best of luck.

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RE: Crime and Punishment (Serious Post) - 1/11/2009 1:44:06 PM   
Lynnxz


Posts: 4813
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
Status: offline
quote:

theft, drug dealing, fraud, prostitution, etc.


Actually I think I'd only have an issue with theft and fraud, as both parties are happy when it comes to drugs and prostitution.

Theft and fraud are irritating, as C is dealing with check fraud (stupid suntrust) and I had to spend 8 hours recovering stolen crap from a sherriffs office last week. Is it actually serious business, or are you making something of nothing?


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RE: Crime and Punishment (Serious Post) - 1/11/2009 1:54:29 PM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: needngreed

If you are lucky to live in a place where there is a "Hot Tip" anonymous hotline to call and you feel that it warrants a call, then use it.  I find that no matter how small the crime, it's still hurting someone, and the legal system has made it easy for us to tip them off.  You may not be the only one doing it, and know that if you aren't, they are more apt to take you seriously and get the criminal off the streets or get them help.  In any case, you and your family are much safer because of it.


The problem with this is that depending on what state/country you live in, most of us are doing what we do within the BDSM category illegally.
If you were within a club or a munch and you saw something that you deemed unsavory and illegal, would you call a hotline? By doing so you would be very probably getting the club or munch raided with a high possibility of it being closed down. When a place gets raided (and I have been in a club that was raided by some sour puss that was not having a good night) everyones name and address gets taken. It makes us all open to investigation.

My advice if your in a club or a munch and you see something that disturbs you because of the legalities, have a word with the promoter. If the organizer stands back and does nothing then its best just to get out and not go back.


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RE: Crime and Punishment (Serious Post) - 1/11/2009 2:05:47 PM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline 		In a country where anal sex and oral is illegal in most states, and the very gay leather men that created the foundation for our pansexual BDSM community were all breaking the law, it is pretty hard to find an objective way to decide what crimes should be reported.

By default, as impressed upon me by the social group I first came into the lifestyle with, we police our own and ostracize those that are considered harmful to others.  I hope that that etiquette is still in place and the keepers of the “A list” for party invites and relationship referrals maintain the old ways with the power to label someone a black sheep.       

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RE: Crime and Punishment (Serious Post) - 1/11/2009 2:58:18 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp
Maybe you should change how you determine people are suitable for play, meeting etc.  It seems your current methods are somewhat lacking.

I agree with the mighty Tulip on this.

Edited because I misread who the OP was.


< Message edited by RedMagic1 -- 1/11/2009 2:59:36 PM >

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RE: Crime and Punishment (Serious Post) - 1/11/2009 3:11:15 PM   
Maxwell67


Posts: 435
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline 		*FR*
Any interaction in which all parties directly involved are informed, consenting adults ought not to be illegal.  Making these things illegal turns people who would otherwise be upstanding citizens into criminals, and once the line is crossed, it is easier to cross other, far worse lines.  I leave all that stuff alone.  It is none of my damned business.

However, if I am witness to an interaction in which the rights of parties involved are being violated in a way that is clearly not consensual, I have no difficulty speaking my mind on the subject.  I have found that many folks who would like to see it stopped do not act only because they do not really know how.  They freeze like a deer in the headlights and simply allow these things to happen, often trying to pretend they do not notice.  But if a call to arms is raised and the people are made aware that they are in fact their brothers keeper in such cases as these, it works.  That is, it is possible to shame them into action, and they feel better for it in the end.


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RE: Crime and Punishment (Serious Post) - 1/11/2009 3:15:02 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		I'm not poly but I really haven't run into a lot who are doing illegal activities such as drugs, fraud, etc...just people who I find simply incompatible with myself. I have run into a handful though and I just simply cut off all contact and don't bother with them again. I don't tell others, I don't worry about others getting stuck in situations with those people. I figure we're all adults here who can take care of themselves and if they can't they'll quickly learn a hard lesson in life and hopefully they'll get a better head on their shoulders next time around.


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RE: Crime and Punishment (Serious Post) - 1/11/2009 4:43:37 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		If it's online, report it to the webmaster. Most sites will check it out and report it to the authorities if it proves genuine.

For other crimes? Depends. Someone buying half an ounce of marijuana is not someone I would feel impelled to turn in. Someone who boasts of running a meth lab in his basement I would call the sheriff's department, from a pay phone if no 1-800 number. Pedophilia I would call the cops and have no problems reporting it.

But I don't associate with people with no ethical values. Perhaps, as has been suggested, if you run into this a lot, you need to work on your screening techniques and do some soul searching to discover why you are attracted to dishonest types.

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RE: Crime and Punishment (Serious Post) - 1/12/2009 12:21:24 AM   
pompeii


Posts: 934
Joined: 1/4/2007
From: Silicon Valley, San Jose, California
Status: offline 		> What's the etiquette for raising flags among others in the community to watch out for dangerous situations?

Here in California, it's illegal to hit anyone even if they consent, so, local D/s clubs such as the Power Exchange (apparently defunct), Citadel, Edges (moved to somewhere, God knows where), and even the nearby professional houses (Backdrop & The Gates come to mind) are all breaking the law the moment the whip or paddle comes out of the bag to provide that lovely oooh and ah from the submissive.

I don't see anyone calling 911 from inside those venues of pleasure & pain to report the illegal activity.

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RE: Crime and Punishment (Serious Post) - 1/12/2009 7:07:58 AM   
MAMandSlave


Posts: 110
Joined: 8/15/2008
Status: offline 		"Not talking about drug use or minor infractions, and also not about extremely serious crimes like child abuse, real rape, etc... but theft, drug dealing, fraud, prostitution, etc. When it has gotten uncomfortable for us, we've just politely excused ourselves, stopped contact, etc.”

Of the crimes listed, the only one that I would feel compelled to do something about is child abuse. If there is child abuse present, then there are hotlines to report crimes. The other "crimes" are up to the victim to report. Is the rape actually real? The level of that some take their play to can seem real to someone not in the scene. Checking in with the "victim" and supporting them while they make a police report is the appropriate course of action for that situation.

I believe that especially in our community as individuals we have a duty to allow others to make decisions in their lives of their own free will. Drug use, while not to be encouraged, is an individual choice.

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RE: Crime and Punishment (Serious Post) - 1/12/2009 7:09:58 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline 		I guess I am lucky because I have never run into this.

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RE: Crime and Punishment (Serious Post) - 1/12/2009 7:53:24 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline 		I am going to chime in with those coming down on the side of doing a better job of screening who you are going to play with.  My first submissive came from the swinging world and in her time there, her husband and her did not meet people like these.  When I first began loaning her out for use by other dominants or when we met with other Dom/subs to play, we carefully checked out their likes/dislikes outside the areas of BDSM and D/s to do as much as we could to ensure we were dealing with people that were not going to create a problem for either of us in any way.  What we did must have worked for we certainly found willing playpartners and never ran into a problem with theft, fraud or drug dealers.

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RE: Crime and Punishment (Serious Post) - 1/12/2009 8:08:21 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		If you are the victim of fraud or theft, you need to report that or just stop associating with that folks and kiss your money/objects goodbye.

The other categories you listed though -- drug dealing and prostitution -- are more matters of what I call social laws unless you know someone is being forced to take drugs or sell their body/buy a body. If you are involved then it's your business, if you aren't, then you have to make a call about whether or not you support those social laws I guess.

As for how you address it within a community, you need to look at the groups responsible for events where these things are happening. If those in charge seem to be aware of what is happening you are left with leaving or calling in the cops. If they aren't aware, bring it to their attention -- try to find out if there is a procedure in place for how you do that and if so, follow it.

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RE: Crime and Punishment (Serious Post) - 1/12/2009 8:18:11 AM   
Decadentpleasure


Posts: 52
Joined: 9/24/2005
Status: offline 		The general consensus (with the exception of a few) would be to report it (if warranted) or basically to stop contact, to which i agree.  As a retired probation officer, its difficult to see activities in anything other than black and white.  However, it doesn't mean that those activities that fall within the 'illegal' sector doesn't happen to fall on the side of 'good'.  There have been times i've been compelled to quietly make phone calls to report activities that although are not blatant, the possibility of it becoming a problem for one or a group as a whole was prevalent (specifically drugs).  There was one time a D opened his bag to break out the toys and a goodly amount of drugs fell out with his toys.  i've always believed that what one does in their private life is just that..'their private life', but when its brought out in the open and could possibly put others in danger, its time to deal with it, no matter how unpopular the decision might be.   There have been groups We've belonged to where We didn't agree with all that was going on..for a short time We ignored it, but when it went over the top, We simply left and had no further contact.  When asked for information concerning that group, We'd give an honest assessment, all the good things and all the things We didn't agree with..just let them make up their own mind.

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RE: Crime and Punishment (Serious Post) - 1/12/2009 12:45:53 PM   
StrangerThan


Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
Status: offline 		Given the way the law works, you're as guilty as those engaged in the activity if you don't report them. Since I don't like to run around reporting people, I tend to limit my exposure and activities with people where simple association puts me in that situation.

Except for the thieves. I'd report them in heartbeat. In choosing not to police others, I can accept that when it's one of the "victim-less" crimes when practiced between adults - meaning where everyone involved is consenting and agreeable with the transaction. That doesn't make it victim-less, hut it does make everyone on the same page.

I can't remember anyone who was happy about having something stolen from them, nor anyone who consented to having something stolen from them.

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