Reality, illusion, possible delusion !! (Full Version)

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missturbation -> Reality, illusion, possible delusion !! (1/8/2009 9:39:29 PM)

Reality - the state or quality of being real.
Illusion - something that decieves by producing a false or misleading impression of reality.
Delusion - a false belief or opinion. A fixed belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact.
 
(dictionary.com)
 
I've been pondering over this post for a few days now and before i start would just like to say, that the intention here is not to offend or cast aspersions on anyone. It really is just a personal opinion that i'm hoping will result in some good discussion.
 
Recently there was quite a lot of discussion about pain sluts / masochists. Due to my experience of play, seeing play etc i have been led to believe, led myself to believe that i am a heavy pain slut, masochist.
Thinking on this, as i have been doing i'm pretty sure that this is more than likely just an illusion. An illusion caused by my various experiences, surroundings, people around me and was i to be put somewhere completely different with a completely different set of people, i'm pretty sure i'd find out that the reality is i'm more than likely just average.
After having several memo exchanges with someone about my attitude when discussing being a masochist / heavy pain slut here i would say that i was probably on the border of delusion. Thank god for straight talking people on here i say [:D]
 
In my case i went from reality (i'm pretty much the norm), to illusion (i was one of few), to delusion (i was better than most). I can assure you that the realisation of what had happened, where i had been led, led myself was not pretty or easy to admit. However it did lead me to look at this problem and alter my thinking, attitude.
 
Another example that springs to mind is the concept of 24/7 slavery. Is it really possible for it to be a reality or does it have to include some illusion? I have always agreed with those who have said 24/7 slavery is entirely possible until pondering about the masochism issue. In reality there are times when surely we cannot purely be a slave? I cannot drop everything when Sir dictates it all the time as i have a job which does not allow it. There are other factors in my life which 'control' my actions just as much as Sir does. I say i am his 24/7 slave but in reality practicality says that has to be an illusion doesnt it? If i said no would that not be bordering on delusion?
 
So i find myself pondering the problems of thinking what is actually illusion is reality?
When does illusion become delusion?
When does delusion become unhealthy?



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Reality, illusion, possible delusion !! (1/8/2009 9:51:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
In reality there are times when surely we cannot purely be a slave? I cannot drop everything when Sir dictates it all the time as i have a job which does not allow it. There are other factors in my life which 'control' my actions just as much as Sir does. I say i am his 24/7 slave but in reality practicality says that has to be an illusion doesnt it? If i said no would that not be bordering on delusion?

Is that your definition of what a slave is?  For most masters, having outside commitments is a desireable thing, enriching to their lives in general and not at all interfering with their authority.  As I posted on another forum "It's only really a problem for the masters who can't see beyond their immediate desire for a beer from the fridge."  For the masters who understand the whole picture and that master does NOT equal "what I want, when I want it, all the time immediately" it's not an issue.

Not that trying to arrange your world like that is bad, just that it doesn't have anything to do with the reality of slavery.

You use the word control- this is why again for me it's not about control, it's about authority. 

A slave can do anything they want as long as they have permission. 



missturbation -> RE: Reality, illusion, possible delusion !! (1/8/2009 10:00:20 PM)

Bad use of words on my part i'm afraid.
The example of not being able to do things at the drop of a hat was, well an example of how 24/7 may not be possible.
The use of the word control, well you can substitute it with authority if you like. Whether i or he likes it or not when it comes to my job i have the control or authority, whichever you prefer to use.

I don't think my choice of words, examples have much effect on my questions about reality, illusion and delusion though.



rabinyaZharovna -> RE: Reality, illusion, possible delusion !! (1/9/2009 4:10:17 AM)

I used to struggle with this alot and mostly it was over the exact example you used... me at work. Me at work meant me feeling very far away from him, his authority and my place as a slave. Particularly because there were a couple of months where I didn't work and so I had become entirely used to being utterly focussed on him... the transition was hard and honestly it was scary. I was scared of  losing that solid footing of being entirely in tune with my place.

Anyhow, after a couple of weeks and alot of patience on his part as I made my way through this struggle... only to come back around to it and have him help me through it all over again, I finally got it. I might be at work, but I am still under his control and his authrority. I work because he wants me to (he thinks it's good for me). I work because he thinks it's important for me not to waste my education. The point is.. I work because it's what he desires. I'm under his authority/control because if he said today you will quit... then I would. When I'm at work I represent myself the way he wants. I dress in the clothes he provided, I eat the way he wants me to, I drink what he wants me to... again all things he provided. Everything I do is under his rule... so whether I am making his bed, buying groceries for his house, earning money for his house etc... it's all always him using me the way he wishes and me acting in the manner he wishes. If I came home and told him I was late to work, or had been rude to a client, or had eaten pizza for lunch instead of what is on my list of acceptable lunches etc.... I would be punished. I may not be on my knees in front of him, but still I am under his rule.

Maybe that helped clarify it in your head a little? Maybe not... maybe you are like me and need it reiterated and shown a few times to really absorb it :)
rz{PF}



DarkSteven -> RE: Reality, illusion, possible delusion !! (1/9/2009 4:32:36 AM)

[sm=goodpost.gif]



colouredin -> RE: Reality, illusion, possible delusion !! (1/9/2009 5:00:30 AM)

To be totally honest Misst I think a lot of how we see ourself is illusion sometimes slipping into delusion. This is certainly something I have noticed recently, people often fail to see the reality, it can come accross as hypocracy but its not because they genuienly dont see what they are saying as not being real.

Often its a protection technique, we big ourselves up to become untouchable which we arent. People are complex, some of my apparent illusion is indeed illusion, I am aware that it isnt true however I am positive there are things that I delude myself about but I wouldnt be able to tell you what because if i could it wouldnt be a delusion.

We justify our illusion by qualifying terms, this is one reason that the labels we use dont fit all. If there were standard terms that meant the same thing to everyone I would doubt many people could justify applying them to themselves but by allowing qualifying statements we can and do allow the illusion to become layered. For this reason I am going to ignore the 24/7 thing everyone has pulled up on. I agree that you can be 24/7 but then each persons means something else.



RCdc -> RE: Reality, illusion, possible delusion !! (1/9/2009 6:53:29 AM)

Regardless the words used, if you are in a relationship, you are in one.  Whether that is ms ds sm or whatever, it's still a continuous relationship unless you decide otherwise.  Even poly happens 'all the time'.  You don't become a mother and then not a mother when your children aren't at home under your care or when they are old enough to move out and start families of their own.  Same with anything.  You just are.
 
24/7 is not an illusion or delusion.  It's just another buzz word that keeps some people happy and helps to explain a little bit more about how constant and/or consistant their relationship is.
 
the.dark.



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Reality, illusion, possible delusion !! (1/9/2009 7:40:54 AM)

I think that a great deal of -everything- that we do in our lives, regardless of whether it involves lifestyle issues or not, is built upon layers of illusion. Layers have been built up since we began to recognize and label our surroundings and the interactions we had with others. These layers provide the foundation for the way that we perceive ourselves and the way that we perceive our lives, and to some extent, it is -all- a lie. We hold on to certain beliefs, and because we hold those beliefs, we are bound to certain courses of action. The recognition that it is a lie is occasionally pushed in our faces when someone -else-, standing on a foundation of different beliefs, is capable of acting, in a similar situation, in a completely different fashion... and they're not struck down by lightning, or swept away by a great wind... they keep moving with their own lives as if they hadn't just broken a major, unbreakable rule within -our- paradigm. In order to justify this in our own minds, we come up with Karma, and epithets about how 'they'll get theirs'.

At my age, I'm a bit uncertain about what 'reality' is. The past year has certainly given me plenty of opportunities to see where the chinks in what I believed to be 'reality' had gaping holes, and I hope that these brief glimpses have given me, also, the opportunity to set aside a few more of my own illusions... but I won't bet on it, because as a race, humans are capable of producing ever more complex illusions to mask the illusions we've had to set aside... and so it goes.

I think the point at which illusion becomes -delusion-, and delusion becomes unhealthy is the point at which we KNOW that what we're seeing is an illusion, but we choose to convince ourselves that it is real and are perfectly okay to continue to behave as if the illusion were reality, regardless of who is inconvenienced or hurt in the process, and regardless of whether it hurts -us- to continue to live in our illusory world. Denial is NOT a river in Egypt... and it won't help us to get past our illusions, either.

As far as the issue of painslut/masochist/whatever -- we do what we enjoy, and we take as much of it as is right for us. Personally, I don't think that the labels add anything other than general benefits of knowing which pool one fits in at the time... and like everything else, the rest is individual.

Same goes for "24/7" servitude -- to me, that is something that exists in the mind more than anywhere else. If you are thinking about what is going to please your keeper with every breath, then whether or not the -world- thinks you're 24/7, to me, that person would be... And the servant who sits around hir keeper's house 24/7, gabbing on the phone and griping about hir chores... just because xhe's there and chained to the sink doesn't mean xhe's in 24/7 servitude... so which is the illusion, which is reality, and where does delusion creep in?



BitaTruble -> RE: Reality, illusion, possible delusion !! (1/9/2009 7:45:05 AM)

I think that delusion often goes hand in hand with making assumptions. Example - When you kid yourself that what is in your mind is a truth because you haven't done your homework to actually know the reality. It's easy to love the 'idea' of someone whom you have yet to meet but it is stark reality .. the reality where you see the flaws and then make a determination on whether or not you can live with them that enables you to build a foundation that can last. Delusions are built on quicksand and that just doesn't work.  I'm a big advocate of putting for some time in face to face situations to make sure that delusions and illusions are dispelled and that reality reigns supreme. To that end, looking in a mirror and keeping it real with myself is far better than trying to live up to unrealistic expectations.. especially those I put on myself.  Illusion - that can be a wonderful junket which taps into creativity energy and has a big fun factor. I don't delude myself into thinking that Master is ever really the head of the CIA when we create the illusion of an interrogation scene, but it's fun. It's temporary and easily shed. Which brings me to reality and I must say that all my illusions, were never as good as the reality, so it is the realm that I like to keep my feet grounded in most often. Getting hugged when I'm sad, having my stomach hurt from laughing too hard with some silly remark he made or walking down the beach and squishing wet sand between our toes.. that's reality and that works really well for me.  My best guess (and I'm not a shrink or anything) is that illusion becomes delusion when you can't separate fact from fiction and since delusion is fiction, I can't image it is a healthy way to live one's life. It must be so frustrating to be constantly disappointed when the delusions fail to stand the test of time. Ick.. not for me!



pompeii -> RE: Reality, illusion, possible delusion !! (1/9/2009 8:21:16 AM)

I'm definitely in the there-has-to-be-a-delusion crowd. The whole thing is putting yourself in the mood of the moment, whether that moment lasts thirty seconds or 24/7. 



thetammyjo -> RE: Reality, illusion, possible delusion !! (1/9/2009 8:44:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Bad use of words on my part i'm afraid.
The example of not being able to do things at the drop of a hat was, well an example of how 24/7 may not be possible.
The use of the word control, well you can substitute it with authority if you like. Whether i or he likes it or not when it comes to my job i have the control or authority, whichever you prefer to use.

I don't think my choice of words, examples have much effect on my questions about reality, illusion and delusion though.


Are you your boss at work? If not, then your boss has the authority there.

It depends on how you view you having a job within the context of your Ds or Ms dynamic I think.

For me, I want Fox to have a job and financially that is a must. However, I have the authority to tell him to quit his job and search for a new one and when he is asked to come in for extra hours or shifts they are fully aware at his job that he needs to "check in first" -- that's a nice way of telling vanillas that he needs to seek permission.

There has been once or twice when I've said no to extra shifts and there are times I tell him to take off afternoons, mornings or entire days. That is how our authority works.

Now with such authority comes serious responsibility. I am never foolish enough to tell him to take time off during busier periods of the year because that would threaten the job itself which I want and need him to have. If he's having problems at work or not feeling well I have told him to take time off because again not doing so might threaten the job.

So it depends on how things work for you but primarily it depends on what matters to you.

If neither you nor your master want him to exercise authority over your job why does it matter if he does or can?

To be a bit silly: I can't control whether or not Fox gets sick or hit by a car or struck by lightening. That doesn't mean he isn't my slave it just means I'm wise enough to know what my limits as a human are.



JustDarkness -> RE: Reality, illusion, possible delusion !! (1/9/2009 8:51:03 AM)

quote:

There are other factors in my life which 'control' my actions just as much as Sir does. I say i am his 24/7 slave but in reality practicality says that has to be an illusion doesnt it?


In mind you are still with him 24/7..that counts. You are just beeing rational and realistic.



fragilepieces -> RE: Reality, illusion, possible delusion !! (1/9/2009 9:13:16 AM)

   I think we all have a tendancy to put ourselves and how we see things inside a box and refuse to step outside of those boxes we have created for ourselves.   

   I am a masochist and my definition of my masochistic side does not always corrospond with how others see it.   For me, it's simply I like pain, the sensations associated with pain and the head space pain puts me in.    Do I think about his pleasure while recieving pain--sometimes but not always because even an accidental injury can throw me into 'that' head space where there are no thoughts in my head over than the pain---and I like that head space.   But I am not always masochistic---an accidental injury that does not cause intense pain and does not toss me into that head space is not a good feeling and I dislike it---playing with someone who I really do not like as a person would probably not be enjoyable were he giving me pain.   With that said, I can not close the lid on that box and know that masochism is a side of me that is always there and always good because sometimes it doesn't work for me.

      My definition of slave also does not corrospond with everyone else's defintion---because it is my own.    I do not see slave as being a physical thing---I see it as more an emotional one.    Can one be a slave 24/7?    With my definition sure  because leaving to go to work is a physical act as long as the heart is loving towards the Master it's 24/7.    But yet again I must expect that there will be some hurt perhaps and disappointment if I choose to give that love---no relationship is perfect 24/7.

      I think that sometimes, we have these expectations that are so high that it is impossible to even begin to reach them.    I think those expectations have to do with desiring pefection not only in our partners, but ourselves and our relationships.     On the surface we can admit to ourselves that we are after all only human therefore perfection is unattainable yet deep down that is what we desire.   How often do we see submissive coming to the boards feeling that somehow they have failed--their dominant, their relationship, themselves?    Again that deep down need for perfection, though not expressly admitted.   

      I keep the lids to my boxes open---that way I can step outside of them--examine the contents---take things out that do not work or add more things to it.    I think it is important to take what we have and work with it---whether it be within ourselves, with our partners or in our relationships.      We must not set ourselves up for that expectation of perfection.   When we don't reality fails us and it's then that we question it.   



T1981 -> RE: Reality, illusion, possible delusion !! (1/9/2009 9:18:27 AM)

This is an interesting question, and even moreso since my husband and I are making a serious effort of exploring my own masochism. It's hard to tell how much pain is alot compared to others, since we haven't a point of reference yet, but this is very good for me to keep in mind. I have to admit, though, there is a definate and burning curiosity to know where it is I stand on the whole "how much pain can I take versus others?" issue.

Thank you for sharing this!



RealSub58 -> RE: Reality, illusion, possible delusion !! (1/9/2009 11:43:00 AM)

Miss,  You think too much ! [8D]Well that is what Sir would tell me. Personally, I think what you are trying to do without realizing it, is to compare yourself to others.  Reality is your own.  You and yours are what you say you are.   According to your own definitions illusion is you comparing yourself to others or their reality.  Delusion is when you and yours don't know /comprehend or understand your own reality. Your reality seems pretty stable.  If you keep thinking so hard your brain might mush out!  [8|]  [:D]



agirl -> RE: Reality, illusion, possible delusion !! (1/9/2009 12:44:43 PM)

If you say you are his 24/7 slave and you and he consider outside influences such as your job, an interference in that , then maybe yes.

If you're in agreement that your job is important and that it's beneficial, wanted and required, why would it be a barrier to anything?

You're not IN slavery to anyone else, so it only matters to you and him.

If you decide that you can't be 'purely' someone's slave, then you might not choose to be. I don't see any barriers myself. My experience of this has meant that all the things that are important to me are important to him and he's more likely to be furthering those things , not hampering them.

The bottom line is that there's a point where you have to trust that choices made for you WILL be the best FOR you and go with it.

agirl









Amaros -> RE: Reality, illusion, possible delusion !! (1/9/2009 5:36:34 PM)

quote:

So i find myself pondering the problems of thinking what is actually illusion is reality?
When does illusion become delusion?
When does delusion become unhealthy?
First off, things change, people change - you are not the same person at 16 as you are at 21, and you're sombody else at 28 - some things stay the same, some things change - I still hate cooked carrots but I like Broccoli.

Illusion is what you think you see, delusion is believing it is true. Unhealthy is when you base life altering decisions on that delusion - thing is, often you have to try something in order to figure out whether it's "you" or not, and to try that in good faith, requires a bit of delusion - I think it becomes unhealthy when you persist despite the signs that it's fucking up your life and making you miserable - people can become accustomed to misery, don't get me wrong, I'm talking more like alcoholism or drug addiction where in spite of all the mounting crap, the addict will continue to insist that it's everybody else causing the problems - that's delusional, and it's unhealthy delusion, these people are no fun to be around.

But, absolutely, 24/7 is possible, as long as your employers, children, teachers, etc., don't object to you walking around naked, collared and possibly plugged or you never leave the house - otherwise, realistic compromises may be required, and it might be more an issue of headspace - and when you break that illusion, it might, in retrospect, appear delusional - now the thingg is, just as we change as we get older, we change as we adpt to our environment - at work, you become a worker, all those BDSM concepts become irrelevant to the situation, you have essentially become another person, a completely sperate entity - in some circles it's called an "agent", almost like a multiple personality, and it's equally delusional in terms of your integreated identity, it really just something you do, an adaptation to a different physical and social environment - they are both equally real, equally delusional.

I think it's just something you have to explore and play around with, particularly if the two environments are completely at odds with each other in terms of expectations, social forms, etc., it can feel very disjointed, and you can start to feel like you've been "putting on an act" in one or the other, or both - but "authenticity" itself is an illusion, and a delusion as well, and just as you feel you've been perhaps been talked into thinking you are something you're not in your personal life, the outside world is equally adept trying to manipulate your identity, in fact they spend quantities of time, energy and resources doing it with the express goal of making you feel unhappy and incomplete - you'll only be complete after you buy their spectacular new and improved washing powder and your Whites are Whiter than White, etc.

In the end, it's just you and your emotions, I have to go with my gut - it's never steered me wrong, even if I've had to buck the trends and weather the resulting flack.






DominaSmartass -> RE: Reality, illusion, possible delusion !! (1/9/2009 9:43:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
]
 
So i find myself pondering the problems of thinking what is actually illusion is reality?
When does illusion become delusion?
When does delusion become unhealthy?


To throw another term into the mix, there is disillusioned. That's what I became after a short but intense D/s relationship ended for me last summer. For 3 months, I was under the illusion that I owned someone when in reality, we were both just participating in a shared illusion. We were both very convinced that it was true but when the right mix of circumstances came about, causing the relationship's end, it became suddenly apparent that I had not owned him at all. The logic being that if ownership had existed it could not be so easily dissolved. In any event, I cannot say whether my case disproves the theory of 24/7 real "true" slavery however, it left me disillusioned enough that I don't believe I will ever buy into the concept of consensual slavery again. Submissives, yes. Service, yes. Slave-like devotion, yes. But truly owning someone? It's great as long as the illusion holds up but maybe those who believe in it as their reality just have not yet faced the particular circumstance that would cause the curtain to fall down and reveal a whole other "reality."

As for when it becomes unhealthy, I think that if reality starts to creep in and one or the other partner tries to hold onto the illusion, it can be unhealthy. If the slave says "that's it, I don't consent anymore" and the owner says "it doesn't matter, you're a slave and don't have the right to withdraw consent" I think that can be unhealthy. As long as both people are equally invested in their shared illusion, who are we to bother them?



Amaros -> RE: Reality, illusion, possible delusion !! (1/9/2009 11:30:38 PM)

It's all illusion, there is such a thing as a healthy delusion, hope is often delusional for example, but often more functional than depression - which may be equally delusional.

Often, this is the case: optimism and pessimism may be both equally delusional, given that no one can predict the future with absolute certainty and either one can become a self fulfilling prophecy. It's a sort of a psychological defense mechanism that if we're going to err, we often err on the side of optimism, and such people are generally better able to recognize and take advantage of opportunities for change when they arise, as well as avoiding the debilitating mental and physical effects of depression.



Amaros -> RE: Reality, illusion, possible delusion !! (1/9/2009 11:37:40 PM)

The depressed pessimist, on the other hand, may see things more realistically, and identify problems that the optimist may be ignoring - I find it useful to look at it both ways periodically.



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