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Obama Moves to Counter China With Pentagon-NASA Link - 1/3/2009 6:37:56 AM

Sanity

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Here are a few excerpts from a fairly long and interesting article (judging by current standards) on Bloomberg.com.

Despite the fact that the article is a decent analysis of the facts, there were a lot of questions left unanswered.

quote:

(Bloomberg)

President-elect Barack Obama will probably tear down long-standing barriers between the U.S.’s civilian and military space programs to speed up a mission to the moon amid the prospect of a new space race with China.

Obama’s transition team is considering a collaboration between the Defense Department and the National Aeronautics and Space Administration because military rockets may be cheaper and ready sooner than the space agency’s planned launch vehicle, which isn’t slated to fly until 2015, according to people who’ve discussed the idea with the Obama team.

The potential change comes as Pentagon concerns are rising over China’s space ambitions because of what is perceived as an eventual threat to U.S. defense satellites, the lofty battlefield eyes of the military.

<snip>

China’s investments in anti-satellite warfare and in “cyberwarfare,” ballistic missiles and other weaponry “could threaten the United States’ primary means to project its power and help its allies in the Pacific: bases, air and sea assets, and the networks that support them,” Gates wrote in the current issue of Foreign Affairs magazine. Anti-Satellite Warfare

China is designing satellites that, once launched, could catch up with and destroy U.S. spy and communication satellites, said a Nov. 20 report to Congress from the U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission. China’s State Council Information Office declined to comment on the nation’s anti- satellite or manned programs.

(Full article here).

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RE: Obama Moves to Counter China With Pentagon-NASA Link - 1/3/2009 7:17:33 AM

LadyEllen

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What an amazing lot we are - we can come up with the most extraordinary machines to help us to achieve superlative feats that our ancestors would only have dreamt of.

And then we work out some way or other in which to kill one another with them.

Probably the brightest bunch of dumbasses the cosmos has yet produced.

E

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RE: Obama Moves to Counter China With Pentagon-NASA Link - 1/3/2009 7:45:55 AM

Sanity

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I doubt our great great great great great great great great great ancestors would have ever made it out of the trees had they not been at least a little combative. Perhaps intelligence goes hand in hand with living above and beyond mere survival...

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RE: Obama Moves to Counter China With Pentagon-NASA Link - 1/3/2009 7:58:46 AM

Termyn8or

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Assembling some facts/____ or something here.

Had a spot of trouble with Russia. They don't like where we want to put some missiles and have stated that if we do place them there, they will place some of their's in Cuba, pretty much where we don't want them.

We are the pre-eminent satellite launcher, we are not the only one but we have alot of them up there. All sitting ducks because the are in geosynchonous orbit and pretty much cannot move. They can, because they have a very minor propulsion system but that is used to keep them in place where they can be used most effectively. But then they can't move except in a line right over the equator, because whatever little tooters they have for engines could never get up to the required velocity to remain in orbit. So they are going to pretty much stay put.

Now China has been sitting on it's hands for some time now. With their resources they are able to finance a significant portion of our debt, and produce enough to have a trade surplus. For now.

So they have decided to build some sort of attack sattelite eh ? Methinkst there is a possiblity that both Russia and China are getting sick of our antics in the middle east. It is a bit too close to home for them, and if I were they I would probably see it in that light.

They see the US as something other than the US's self image. (if any) They see us retiring space shuttles with no replacements, which will basically outsource that. I think they see just how stoooooooopid we are and are waiting for the right moment to help us to get our foot, into our mouth. I think that in time if people don't get reasonable and stop this madness, China and Russia will be watching very closely to see what happens in Iran, and if they don't like it, they will go against us. China can afford to do it because even holding alot of US paper, there is a chance that the value of same will never recover to it's former level. In other words they did not gamble the rent money.

The other thing alot of US Citizens do not realize is that while the US may be China's largest single market, we are not the only one. They will still make money without us. To support a war, whether hot or cold with those two entities, we would have to borrow the money as we are no longer able to earn it.

They know this.

Eventually it will probbly come down to the US, Israel and England against China, Russia and Iran. A new axis of evil and set of allies. That's all it is folks, history repeating itself. You do remember why that happens right ? When will they ever learn ?

( that last sentence was in a song from the sixties, anyone know what it was ? )

T

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RE: Obama Moves to Counter China With Pentagon-NASA Link - 1/3/2009 8:01:44 AM

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Yep. Unfortunately our intelligence would seem to be based on the acquisition of means by which to kill one another more effectively. From that aim derive all other human activities and achievements.

Heaven help us if such is the only measure of intelligence in the universe, as well it might be.

E

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RE: Obama Moves to Counter China With Pentagon-NASA Link - 1/3/2009 8:17:56 AM

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The Navy recently launched a missle from a ship out at sea that took out a failing satellite. They re-programmed an Aegis system for the task and not only destroyed the obeject, but pretty much obliterated it. The inital question went from "Can we hit the thing?" to "What spot on the thing would you like us to hit?" The Navy, with a lot of help from the contractor (Northrup, I think) cranked out this project in a matter of months, from the time the satellite was determined to be a lost cause to the moment it was destroyed. And we did this very openly and in the public eye.

If I were an emrging power like China that capability would scare the crap out of me.

I have never completely beleived that there was no link between the Pentagon and NASA. Maybe nothing official, but definitely something. One big tell is that the communications with the shuttle are often encrypted. If there is no Pentagon link then why the need for secrecy?

~Dave

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RE: Obama Moves to Counter China With Pentagon-NASA Link - 1/3/2009 8:18:46 AM

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I wouldn't say that at all, I believe you're being overly pessimistic. From our long lost ancestors fighting each other with sticks and stones under their trees to the United States watching the Chinese explore space, it's always been and it is more like playing a very serious game of chess than actually killing anyone. Beat your chest and scream and make noise, perhaps they will back down or at least agree on a treaty... because actual war only leads to Darwin awards being handed out, as opposed to the survival of the fittest.

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RE: Obama Moves to Counter China With Pentagon-NASA Link - 1/3/2009 11:18:44 AM

celticlord2112

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quote:

I have never completely believed that there was no link between the Pentagon and NASA.

The number of astronauts that are ex-military or military on loan to NASA, the fact that leading NASA contractors are also leading defense contractors, and there is to be no link between the Pentagon (military) and NASA?

People really believe that?

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RE: Obama Moves to Counter China With Pentagon-NASA Link - 1/3/2009 11:27:19 AM

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CL. no I dont believe it. When China stops buying T-bills, then we will get to see alot of odd things.

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RE: Obama Moves to Counter China With Pentagon-NASA Link - 1/3/2009 11:42:43 AM

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So do you think it's a mere veil that's being lifted? Or is P.E. Obama seriously planning to do more to militarize space, to join NASA and the Pentagon at the hip, than has been done in the past.

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RE: Obama Moves to Counter China With Pentagon-NASA Link - 1/3/2009 12:16:12 PM

JustDarkness

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Was this his first step in changing things?

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RE: Obama Moves to Counter China With Pentagon-NASA Link - 1/3/2009 1:09:39 PM

awmslave

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quote:

When China stops buying T-bills, then we will get to see alot of odd things.

Good point: China does not need military to destroy US.

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RE: Obama Moves to Counter China With Pentagon-NASA Link - 1/3/2009 3:13:40 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

So do you think it's a mere veil that's being lifted? Or is P.E. Obama seriously planning to do more to militarize space, to join NASA and the Pentagon at the hip, than has been done in the past.

No, it's a lot simpler than that.

The launch vehicle set to succeed the Space Shuttle (called Ares I) is in trouble technically and over budget. One way to possibly reduce cost & risk and buy back some schedule is to look at using already-developed launch vehicles such as Atlas & Delta which have been mainly (although by no means only) used by the military in the past. NASA has used those rockets, too -- to launch interplanetary missions such as Voyager, and the Mars Rovers.

It's not really that big of a deal, or that big of a change, in terms of the NASA/DoD relationship. It is a bit of a political pissing match, though, because the current project is associated with Mike Griffin, the current administrator (and a Bush appointee). Using an existing launch vehicle instead of Griffin's (i.e., Bush's) Ares I is one way Obama could put his own administration's stamp on things.

< Message edited by pollux -- 1/3/2009 3:20:19 PM >

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RE: Obama Moves to Counter China With Pentagon-NASA Link - 1/3/2009 3:24:54 PM

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That Navy strike was at incredibly low orbit - it wouldn't work at geostationary or even GPS altitudes.

Same thing with the Chinese sat-killer.

Now (as a reply to using sat launchers for manned payloads), it'll take a lot of requalification to use those on manned flights. Losing a satellite is a matter for insurance companies and the manufacturers - loss of a crew and/or orbiter is a whole different matter.

thornhappy

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDaveGuy69

The Navy recently launched a missle from a ship out at sea that took out a failing satellite. They re-programmed an Aegis system for the task and not only destroyed the obeject, but pretty much obliterated it. The inital question went from "Can we hit the thing?" to "What spot on the thing would you like us to hit?" The Navy, with a lot of help from the contractor (Northrup, I think) cranked out this project in a matter of months, from the time the satellite was determined to be a lost cause to the moment it was destroyed. And we did this very openly and in the public eye.

If I were an emrging power like China that capability would scare the crap out of me.

I have never completely beleived that there was no link between the Pentagon and NASA. Maybe nothing official, but definitely something. One big tell is that the communications with the shuttle are often encrypted. If there is no Pentagon link then why the need for secrecy?

~Dave

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RE: Obama Moves to Counter China With Pentagon-NASA Link - 1/3/2009 4:14:03 PM

pollux

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

Now (as a reply to using sat launchers for manned payloads), it'll take a lot of requalification to use those on manned flights.

Sure it will. But that's the million dollar question -- whether it's better/faster/cheaper to man-rate an existing booster, or cheaper to build a completely new man-rated system.

I don't think there's a clear answer.

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