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Speaking of Sharian law=Women's rights ? - 12/30/2008 9:25:30 AM   
Termyn8or


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Seems like it always comes down to that. Fully demonized for that issue and that issue alone.

It has also  been mentioned that we, the western world, have little to advertise as far as convincing them to change. I would tend to agree, save for a few points.

We could do better with our body of laws, most decidedly, but the basis' for those laws is firm. Yes it has been bastardised by influence and money as well as religion, but these older law systems are based on religion, or someone's interpretation thereof. Therein lies the problem.

For a glimmer of insight into my standing on it, even our own US Constitution does not mention God, Yahweh nor Christ. It says Creator. Now just why does it say that ? Obviously these were well chosen words, at least in the eyes of the author(s), so what's wrong with them you may ask. I would have more likely used :

"All People endowed with the gift of life have certain inalienable rights"

The use of the word Creator in that instance demonstrates mankind's innate tendency to externalize certain concepts. Add to that the commonality of the notion that if we cannot understand something that "Someone or Something out there must". Then we must seek some sort of guidance, and over the years my conclusion is that they heeded the words of madmen in some cases.

This applies to all religions, none are excepted. I don't care of you die for Allah, Jesus, the Emperor or the Fuhrer or that matter, it all shares a common thread. There is almost always some sort of afterlife involved, very few exceptions.

Of course we have our exceptions as well. We burned witches at the stake. There wasn't even a real law (maybe local) against being a witch. Today there would be a WCLU up in arms over these happenings. There would be court challenges, settlements and so forth. Come on, don't let the actions of others minimize our own stupidity. If the law of the land were enforced properly witches would walk among us. There would be laws of course against using the craft for personal gain, such would be considered stealing.

So as usual the pot calls the kettle black, if not explain to me how in this enlightened society in which we supposedly live, there are arcane drug and sodomy laws, and a plethora of laws that have nothing at all to do with the public good.

To sum that part of this up, look in the mirror before you walk out the door to spread the word.

Now, Sharian law is much older. Derived from a time when who knows what the hell was going on. Perhaps quite misinterpreted as well. Wouldn't be the first time. Then even interpreted correctly, just who wrote it ?

Man could fuck up an iron ball. Try to read the code of Hamurabi, it is just about insufferable. But what I got out of it was there was an attempt at alot of micromanagement and total disarray in trying to implement it.  Plenty that we would consider barbaric of course and a few things that make no sense whatsoever.

Mankind seeks leadership and guidance. It is my firm belief that for us to finally get out of the dark ages we must learn to look within for this, rather than some ethereal super being, and trying to please same by doing it's will. And who shall tell us just what that will is ?

The whole thing is twisted, of course what would you expect ? To illustrate; most religions agree on one thing, that a single entity created the heavens and the Earth. OK, logically now we are talking about the same being, yet the interpretation of His wishes run from one end to the other.

Bibles, Korans, Torahs, Talmuds, whatever, are full of smiting enemies and such. Ritual, ceremony, praise. If there ever were a garden path, the world has been led down it for sure.

So Moslem law is behind our law by a spell. I don't dispute that. But it is not our job to change it. Did they help Women gain sufferage in the western world ? I think not.

When they are ready (or less unready) change will come. As it has and does for us.

T
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RE: Speaking of Sharian law=Women's rights ? - 12/30/2008 10:12:45 AM   
Raechard


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What is the objective of the military in Afghanistan then because if it's about fighting the Taliban then why are we doing that? There are obviously two schools of thought on the issue:

1) Leave the rest of the world be; to develop on its own and hope that they don't develop weapons to kill you with in the mean time because your culture is so alien to them that they fear your intensions.

2) Try to establish common values that respect the rights of every human on earth so that it isn't such a war of the worlds situation, and every nation has a clear understanding of when they are in the right and when they are in the wrong. This should ideally be done with the consensus of the international community through institutions such as the UN.

A lot of the wars that have ever happened boil down to the fear of other peoples intensions. You can't expect to live in your cosy little home and not have the rest of the world come knocking on your door some day. You can't look the other way when people in other parts of the world are being exploited in a way you wouldn't accept in your part of the world. If you do then the fear and paranoia of each other’s intentions as you sit in judgement of them will build up and lead to war just as surely as any interference with that culture to change it could lead to war. If two nations develop isolated from one another, becoming vastly different in values, sooner or later one will want to impose its world view on the other, the only difference is what their military capability to do so is.

What is you preference: two nations with equal military means having completely different values or two nations with differing military means having completely different values? At what stage do you want to try to enforce harmony, with an onus on your values taking priority?

Maybe you have a next door neighbour who hates you and you suspect him of wanting you dead so you build a huge wall which means you can't annoy one another so much. Only at the same time you are a bit worried about what he is up to now that you can't see him. You hear him digging a hole maybe it is a flower bed but maybe it is your grave and he is hatching a plot to kill you. If only you could still see what he was up to you wouldn't be so paranoid, is it worth drilling a hole in your wall to spy on him or will he notice and lead to him getting more angry? You’ll never be able to feel safe there at home with no knowledge of what is happening in other parts of the world.

Engagement is always better than isolating yourself and hoping others will develop your values at the same time they are developing their weapons systems.

< Message edited by Raechard -- 12/30/2008 10:16:57 AM >


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RE: Speaking of Sharian law=Women's rights ? - 12/30/2008 12:57:48 PM   
awmslave


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Is it true if we attach religion to a law regulating everyday activities irrational, abusive, inhumane, ... and so on becomes justified?

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RE: Speaking of Sharian law=Women's rights ? - 12/30/2008 3:28:00 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Of course we have our exceptions as well. We burned witches at the stake. There wasn't even a real law (maybe local) against being a witch.


Term ~

There were no witches burned in the colonies or in the USA. 

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RE: Speaking of Sharian law=Women's rights ? - 12/30/2008 3:32:45 PM   
awmslave


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This is a citation of the argument from other source:

As religion is essentially based on wishful thinking, then it cannot be relied upon as the basis for either law or morality. Therefore, mankind will need to develop other mechanisms upon which to base legal and moral principles. Those principles will need to be universally agreed if corruption and manipulation by unscrupulous and self-serving individuals is to be avoided or remedied.

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RE: Speaking of Sharian law=Women's rights ? - 12/30/2008 3:34:56 PM   
defiantbadgirl


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No witches burned in the US? So the Salem witch trials I learned about in my history textbooks in school never existed?

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RE: Speaking of Sharian law=Women's rights ? - 12/30/2008 3:35:35 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

No witches burned in the US? So the Salem witch trials I learned about in my history textbooks in school never existed?


The Salem "witches" were hanged, not burned.

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RE: Speaking of Sharian law=Women's rights ? - 12/30/2008 3:38:00 PM   
hopelessfool


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Actually several were burned it was the burning of witches which burned an herb that grew wild whos name escapes me, which acted like a hallucinogenic which caused the the destruction of more people.

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RE: Speaking of Sharian law=Women's rights ? - 12/30/2008 3:39:23 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

No witches burned in the US? So the Salem witch trials I learned about in my history textbooks in school never existed?


The Salem "witches" were hanged, not burned.

Or crushed to death under stones in one case which was likely worse than burning from all reports.

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RE: Speaking of Sharian law=Women's rights ? - 12/30/2008 3:40:06 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

No witches burned in the US? So the Salem witch trials I learned about in my history textbooks in school never existed?


Sure, the witch trials took place.  And witches were put to death.  19 by hanging and 1 pressed to death, IIRC.  14 women, 6 men. 

The burnings took place in Europe and were a horse of a different color than what happened in the colonies. 

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RE: Speaking of Sharian law=Women's rights ? - 12/30/2008 3:46:02 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hopelessfool

Actually several were burned it was the burning of witches which burned an herb that grew wild whos name escapes me, which acted like a hallucinogenic which caused the the destruction of more people.


I think that you are a bit confused about the theory of the ergot poisoning and the possibility of it being responisble for the American Colony witch hysteria. 

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RE: Speaking of Sharian law=Women's rights ? - 12/30/2008 5:03:56 PM   
Stephann


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Why derail an entire concept over minutia?  Burned, hanged, or stoned, they weren't executed because of their religious beliefs; they were executed because of the hysteria that is the inevitable result of an overly repressive society (which is far more to the heart of the matter.)

Stephan




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RE: Speaking of Sharian law=Women's rights ? - 12/30/2008 5:09:45 PM   
Sanity


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How far can we possibly have come if all we've managed to do is replace witch hunts with religion hunts...

?


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RE: Speaking of Sharian law=Women's rights ? - 12/30/2008 5:13:02 PM   
Aneirin


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Has anyone ever thought what we know of what is happening in  the former holy lands, is what we are trained to know, not what might actually be the truth ?

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RE: Speaking of Sharian law=Women's rights ? - 12/30/2008 6:23:50 PM   
TheHeretic


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        My hope is that now that we are about to have a Democrat back in the White House, democrats/liberals/leftists/progressives will remember that they are supposed to care about this stuff.  But I won't be forgetting how casually they forgot.

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RE: Speaking of Sharian law=Women's rights ? - 12/30/2008 11:05:29 PM   
corysub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Has anyone ever thought what we know of what is happening in  the former holy lands, is what we are trained to know, not what might actually be the truth ?


I think you raise a good point from the angle of youngsters going to religious schools and learning about the holy land from books with a bias towards their religion.  As far as the "truth", once a child grows up if there is a will to do so I think there are enough resources in libraries that can be tapped and particularly these days with access via google to billions of bytes of information, that anyone truly interested in a topic can study the thoughts of a wide variety of historians and pundits, visit the area and live with the people if possible, and come up with their own "truth".  Bottom line, most of us believe what we want to believe..and seldom change an opinion.

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RE: Speaking of Sharian law=Women's rights ? - 12/30/2008 11:17:55 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

       My hope is that now that we are about to have a Democrat back in the White House, democrats/liberals/leftists/progressives will remember that they are supposed to care about this stuff.  But I won't be forgetting how casually they forgot.


No Heretic.  Not the Democrats.  That wouldn't happen.  What are you thinking?  Just like I am sure that they would not start insulting a newborn and its family over its name.

Remember. . . the Democrates are the kinder and gentler party.

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RE: Speaking of Sharian law=Women's rights ? - 12/31/2008 1:07:09 AM   
jlf1961


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FAIR WARNING, I HAVE SLIPPED INTO HISTORY TEACHER MODE ON THIS, THUS IT IS LONG WINDED, IF YOU ACTUALLY READ THE WHOLE POST, IT OPENS OTHER ASPECTS TO THE ARGUMENT PRESENTED BY THE OP.

With the witch trials properly addressed, I will return to, what I think the op was getting at.

To begin with, our code of laws are based, with one exception, on English law as established prior to 1776.  The exception being Louisiana which uses a french based legal code.  Both were loosely based on the laws of the old testament, The Book of Leviticus.

As for there being no laws against witchcraft, you are correct, as codified, HOWEVER, there are federal and state laws against public harm, which has been used to deal with the Mormon movement, as well as others since the founding of this country, including witchcraft.  In this way, the people that codified the American version got past the "suffer not a witch to live among you."

And, unless I am mistaken, laws against witchcraft may still exist in most European countries, waiting for some fruitloop to use them for personal gain.

Now, turning to Sharian Law which is a more detailed interpretation of the laws of Moses, we have set of laws that are well over a thousand years old, part of Muslim tradition, and therefore would be hard to change without some problems.

When dealing with Woman's Rights, even we still have problems with it, and in fact, we violate the laws for the protection of women daily, in the strictly biblical sense.

We, are not supposed to allow women out unaccompanied by a male family member.
We are required by Biblical law to be the provider of food and shelter, as well as discipline for our women.
And the only work outside the home a woman is allowed to do is help tend the flocks.

Sorry ladies.

In one respect, by giving the women in the western world the freedoms we have, we have actually taken away many of the rights given to them by God, according to the old testament.

However, when it comes to women fighting in wars, please note that in Judges, a woman became a war leader against the Philistines.

In the old testament, judges weren't legal judges, but war chiefs.

Consider the following points:

Let me point out a western equivalent.

The Catholic church (no jokes or attacks about the few priests that have committed child abuse and molestation, I was raised Catholic and still respect the Church, and like the church condemn the priests who acted in those ways) is older than the Muslim faith, but not by much.

First, while there is no place in the bible expressly forbidding women in the priesthood, EXCEPT in the old testament, male dominated clergy still exists.
There is still a prohibition against the use of chemical birth control.
It was 1000 years before the church decided that priests and nuns could wear secular clothing. (Vatican II)
For that matter, the Greek Orthodox church took 1000 years to forgive the Catholic church and the descendants of the crusaders for stabling horses in the Athens Cathedral.

Now, up until the late Renaissance, in Catholic Europe the Law of the Church was the law of the land, hence the famous Inquisition (from which we get a lot of our furnishings.)

In Protestant Europe, religious leaders were also the local judges, so, if you screwed up, YOU REALLY SCREWED UP.

This was a simple and accepted fact of life for 1700 years of western thought, so, with the Muslim Religion being only about 1300 years old, it is far behind the western philosophy.

However, with the exception of the Islamic faith, there is no, I REPEAT, NO WESTERN RELIGION WITH SPECIFIC RULES AND RELIGIOUS LAWS DEALING WITH WARFARE!!!

Just because fanatics are dumb enough to be brainwashed into committing mass murder, or suicide bombings, under Islamic law dealing with warfare and Jihad, every one of those suckers are now burning in hell, denied access to paradise for killing non combatants.

Read it for yourself.

By the very same point, while the bible does say there is a time for peace and a time for war, and a time to kill, there is still that little thing in the commandments, "thou shalt not Kill."

That means specifically, THOU SHALT NOT KILL THE DESCENDANTS OF ABRAHAM OR THE FOLLOWERS OF THE FAITH.

That means, killing Muslims in the name of Jesus was a sin in the Crusades, and is a sin now.  Just as killing Jews and Christians in the name of Islam is a sin, for we are all 'people of the book.'



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RE: Speaking of Sharian law=Women's rights ? - 12/31/2008 6:27:08 AM   
DarkSteven


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Sharian law isn't THAT old.  Islam rose from Christianity just as Christianity rose from Judaism.  So both the Ten Commandments and Jesus' teachings predated Sharia.

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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

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RE: Speaking of Sharian law=Women's rights ? - 12/31/2008 11:46:43 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee



No Heretic.  Not the Democrats.  That wouldn't happen.  What are you thinking?  Just like I am sure that they would not start insulting a newborn and its family over its name.

Remember. . . the Democrates are the kinder and gentler party.


Track, Trig, Willow, Bristol, Piper, and now Tripp?

And you think it's only Democrats that find this funny?



< Message edited by rulemylife -- 12/31/2008 11:47:58 AM >

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