RE: No Good Deed Goes Unpunished...

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Aileen1968 -> RE: No Good Deed Goes Unpunished... (12/21/2008 5:03:39 AM)
There really were no details given in the report but...I just took a certified first aid and cpr course last month. The first thing we were taught was that if the person was conscious, you had to ask them if they wanted aid from you and they had to say yes before you could proceed. We were also taught that you only removed someone from a vehicle if it was a life threatening situation. Tough call on this one.

NuevaVida -> RE: No Good Deed Goes Unpunished... (12/21/2008 7:11:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster quote: ORIGINAL: NuevaVida I thought it was common knowledge (at least it's been taught to me since grade school) NOT to move an injured person because you can't possibly know if there is a neck or spine injury and can possibly paralyze them for life. Always wait for rescuers. They have the tools and knowledge with which to handle injured people. I certainly do not. Having been involved in an accident in which two little ones were flung out into the street and knocked unconscious, I can assure you I stopped someone from trying to move them - traffic had already stopped and no one had any business risking further damage to those guys. If the woman was right, she has a rightful claim. Did the good samaritan have a C-collar? A backboard and gurney? Knowledge of any possible dangerous lacerations? What if she was stabbed with a piece of metal from the car and moving her risked fatally tearing her open? I'll echo the advice of, if the car isn't on fire (and the person is breathing), call for help and stay close, but do not move the person. You innocently risk further damage, as seen in this particular case. Ask yourselves, if it were you in the car and you were unnecessarily permanently paralyzed because a person with good intentions didn't stop and think before moving you...what would you do?? Ummm, sometimes there isn't always time to take a time out, go to the library, research the proper rescue techniques, call an attorney and secure legal representation, then come back and wait for emergency personnel to arrive at the scene. Unless you really want me to watch your ass flame on while I stand there and watch. I can do that. Just make sure there are instructions engraved on the outside of your vehicle. I wouldn't want to go against your wishes. I think you missed the part I bolded above. No one said anything about going to the library. I said I was taught from an early age NOT to move someone unless it was urgent and life threatening. Is there a need for such sarcasm in your post?

hizgeorgiapeach -> RE: No Good Deed Goes Unpunished... (12/21/2008 9:14:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NuevaVida No one said anything about going to the library. I said I was taught from an early age NOT to move someone unless it was urgent and life threatening. You and I were taught the same thing. However, I was taught that a car being on fire (or Looking like it was on Fire) is Life Threatening and Urgent. Neither the would be rescuer nor the accident victim had any way of knowing that the smoke seen was from the air bag. Nor would many of us hesitate and assume that it was from something harmless like the airbag - we would see smoke in an accident and think "shit, that car's on fire, it could blow up at any second" and we would do something immediately to help anyone whom we percieved as being trapped inside a Burning Vehical. The fact that the rescuer was wrong - the car was not on fire - is a moot point. What is pertinant is that the rescuer acted in good faith during what was seen as both Urgent and Life Threatening in the Immediate sense. Had the car in fact been on fire, as the rescuer believed, then would the now paralyzed victim still be whining about being paralyzed? Somehow I doubt she would - in fact she'd probably be quick to say that she owed her life to her coworker. If the rescuer hadn't acted, and the car had been on fire (as the rescuer thought) would the family of the Dead victim now be suing because they stood around waiting for professionals to show up?

Raechard -> RE: No Good Deed Goes Unpunished... (12/21/2008 9:58:31 AM)
Maybe the victim should concentrate their grievance at the person responsible for the crash.

hizgeorgiapeach -> RE: No Good Deed Goes Unpunished... (12/21/2008 10:11:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Raechard Maybe the victim should concentrate their grievance at the person responsible for the crash. Heh - works great, unless she happened to be the one who caused her own accident! Then, of course, she'd have no one to Blame but herself, and there's damned few of us who are capable of (or willing to) take responcibility on that level for our own misfortune.

Raechard -> RE: No Good Deed Goes Unpunished... (12/21/2008 10:22:01 AM)
Yes I was kind of thinking it being her fault initially could be the cause of this case being brought. The real problem is she is going to need a lot of help from now onwards so claiming compensation could be the difference between living and just existing for her. I don't blame her for the case being brought, she has to look out for her future security but she should be focusing her efforts on her insurance company if the accident was her fault. We pay insurance not just to cover those we hurt but for unforeseen things that happen to us through our actions. They should get rid of third party insurance in my opinion and force everyone to insure themselves fully comprehensive. We seem to be paying all this money to insurance companies who are gambling on a good outcome and when they lose the bet they should be made to pay out. People should be more aware and read the exemptions on their policy, this is where the insurance companies make their profit.

NuevaVida -> RE: No Good Deed Goes Unpunished... (12/21/2008 10:29:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach quote: ORIGINAL: NuevaVida No one said anything about going to the library. I said I was taught from an early age NOT to move someone unless it was urgent and life threatening. You and I were taught the same thing. However, I was taught that a car being on fire (or Looking like it was on Fire) is Life Threatening and Urgent. Neither the would be rescuer nor the accident victim had any way of knowing that the smoke seen was from the air bag. Nor would many of us hesitate and assume that it was from something harmless like the airbag - we would see smoke in an accident and think "shit, that car's on fire, it could blow up at any second" and we would do something immediately to help anyone whom we percieved as being trapped inside a Burning Vehical. The story as reported only said the co-worker feared the car might catch on fire. There was no mention that there was smoke, sparks, smoldering, or why the co-worker had this fear. So it really is impossible for us to make armchair quarterback decisions as to what was right or wrong here. This why I said "If she the woman was right, then she has a rightful claim." IF. In this case, the car was not on fire and we do not know what indication the co-worker had that it might catch. Without that knowledge, none of us can decide. The photos of the damaged vehicle were after the fact, black & white, partial prints, and blurred. We do not know if the injured woman was crying out for help or screaming "Please don't move me" or if she looked dead. We just don't have the facts here, so to say she should not have sued based on that one report is an uninformed decision. I simply posted what my knowledge is on moving accident victims, as I felt it might help add information for those who are posting in judgment. quote: The fact that the rescuer was wrong - the car was not on fire - is a moot point. What is pertinant is that the rescuer acted in good faith during what was seen as both Urgent and Life Threatening in the Immediate sense. Had the car in fact been on fire, as the rescuer believed, then would the now paralyzed victim still be whining about being paralyzed? Somehow I doubt she would - in fact she'd probably be quick to say that she owed her life to her coworker. If the rescuer hadn't acted, and the car had been on fire (as the rescuer thought) would the family of the Dead victim now be suing because they stood around waiting for professionals to show up? Based on the reported story, we don't know that the situation was life threatening, or any of the circumstances within that situation. You're already casting negative judgment on the injured party by referring to her as "whining." What if she was begging her co-worker NOT to move her? Would you still see her as whining? Your question, however, is a good one - what if she had been left unmoved and died? It is very likely her family may have filed a claim. And in doing so, the accident and its circumstances would have been dissected and the truth (hopefully) revealed - at least more so than has been revealed in this thread. It's an interesting discussion to have. But I think people are quick to throw right/wrong judgments around without knowing anything about what happened there.

hizgeorgiapeach -> RE: No Good Deed Goes Unpunished... (12/21/2008 11:10:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NuevaVida Based on the reported story, we don't know that the situation was life threatening, or any of the circumstances within that situation. You're already casting negative judgment on the injured party by referring to her as "whining." What if she was begging her co-worker NOT to move her? Would you still see her as whining? Your question, however, is a good one - what if she had been left unmoved and died? It is very likely her family may have filed a claim. And in doing so, the accident and its circumstances would have been dissected and the truth (hopefully) revealed - at least more so than has been revealed in this thread. It's an interesting discussion to have. But I think people are quick to throw right/wrong judgments around without knowing anything about what happened there. One simple fact of life - one which many of us tend to forget when it's inconvenient to remember (yes, I include myself in that group as being just as guilty as the next person) - is that Shit Happens. Bad Shit Happens - even to essentially Good people. Accidents and injuries happen every day - some through our own fault, some throug the fault of others - but they're Going to happen, and not a damn thing any of us do can keep All accidents from happening. We can do something in the form of Risk Management - but we cannot ever completely eliminate the possibility of (or potential for) accidients occuring. Complaining about the Outcome of those accidents which occure does nothing - not for ourselves, not for anyone else - towards Overcoming the outcome. Sucking it up, picking up the pieces, pulling on the virtual "big kid" panties, and moving forward Does. So yes - I would still consider it Whining if I knew she had begged her coworker Not to move her. She should be thankful - Despite the outcome - that anyone gave enough of a flying fuck about her to BE concerned for her life, not bitching because that Concern led to a less than perfect outcome!

Aileen1968 -> RE: No Good Deed Goes Unpunished... (12/21/2008 11:16:56 AM)
fast reply People try to make the best decision they can in these kinds of situations. They tend to be highly stressed and you have to take quick action. Things need to be done in a matter of seconds and you often don't have the luxury of time to weigh all options thoroughly. I do believe that the woman who is being sued was also involved in the accident. If that was me, I'd be freaked just from that. To have to provide aid to someone else at that point would be extremely difficult. that should be a factor in all of this.

NuevaVida -> RE: No Good Deed Goes Unpunished... (12/21/2008 12:33:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach So yes - I would still consider it Whining if I knew she had begged her coworker Not to move her. She should be thankful - Despite the outcome - that anyone gave enough of a flying fuck about her to BE concerned for her life, not bitching because that Concern led to a less than perfect outcome! To re-ask my earlier, unanswered question - if you were in that situation and did not want to be moved, but were moved anyway, and if you ended up unnecessarily paralyzed for life over it...would you be grateful or would you be angry? Would you shrug it off to "shit happens"? I'm not trying to be argumentative here but in your post you said complaining about the outcome does nothing...isn't that the point of this thread, though? To complain about the outcome (suit)? Along the lines of what Aileen just posted, and having been in a situation like that myself, I can certainly relate. In my case, all I could think of was, the paramedics are on their way and no one should touch the boys until they arrive. I was the driver of the car that hit them as they darted across the street unseen. Yes I was completely freaked out and yes it was incredibly difficult. No one knows what the best decisions are at the time. Of course I feel people should look out for each other and help each other. I hoped what could come from this thread is the knowledge that moving someone with unknown injuries can be more damaging than not. If nothing else, such lawsuits bring that to awareness.

hizgeorgiapeach -> RE: No Good Deed Goes Unpunished... (12/21/2008 1:13:28 PM)
I would probably be angry at first, but reminding myself that Shit Happens - and reminding myself that at least they had sufficient balls to Try and do something, rather than simply running away. I can say that with assurance because I've had people simply drive off after hitting me, rather than even bothering to find out if there was an injury to be dealt with. We're by far a too litigious society. Suing someone, for the most part, amounts to extracting Revenge. Lawsuits shouldn't be Necessary for people to remember that sometimes doing what appears to be the Right thing can in fact be the Wrong thing - but that's a matter of Hindsight. It is always perfect.

NuevaVida -> RE: No Good Deed Goes Unpunished... (12/21/2008 1:42:24 PM)
Hi again georgiapeach, thank you for answering. Personally, I honestly believe I would meet being paralyzed for life with a far greater response than "shit happens." I have no idea what I would do in that situation, but I think it's being simplified here. Becoming a human being totally dependent on others for my every need would be a pretty huge trauma for me. I would certainly consider the option of being reimbursed for lost work, medical bills, and pain and suffering. Seriously, this is why we insure ourselves - - to cover damages against ourselves and others when mistakes are made. I understand the concern of being an overly litigious society. But I also truly believe none of us knows what we would do in that situation unless we were in it. Even then we might struggle with what to do. I just don't think it's that simple. In any case, I appreciate that you've engaged in this conversation with me. :)

hizgeorgiapeach -> RE: No Good Deed Goes Unpunished... (12/21/2008 2:14:25 PM)
NV, I guess part of my perspective on the whole "paralyzed" issue comes from a strange place. Having been the primary caregiver now for 2 seperate people who were partially paralyzed from different things (birth with my daughter, stroke with dad) - it's given me a very different outlook on both sides of that scenario. I don't find it hard to conceptualize being paralyzed, and the changes that have to be made, or the amount of things that are and aren't still possible with non-functioning limbs. Part of it, to, comes from having been in 4 wrecks over the past 26 years since I started driving - all of which were caused by the other driver. Of those four wrecks, 2 were flat out Hit & Runs, and a third Would have been, had the damage to the other vehical not kept the other driver from leaving immediately. In that particular wreck - the other driver Attempted to drive away, but the force of impact caused his entire drive train to drop from under his vehical! When he got out of his truck, it wasn't to see if there were Injuries to the folks in MY car - it was to start cussing me out for "getting in his way." I was coming up on an intersection, and the light changed to yellow - I knew I didn't have time to get through it before it became red, so I stopped. This guy was in the same lane behind me - and when he saw me stopping for the red light, he decided to speed up and change lanes to go Around me to try and beat the light. Not only did he Not beat the light, he failed to finish changing lanes, which caused him to hit the back corner of my car on his way past. The force of the impact was enough to send my car skidding 16 feet forward into the (heavily trafficed) 4 way intersection in a spin, drop his drive train from under his vehical, and have me going to weekly therapy for the next 6 months for the neck and back injuries I sustained. He didn't give a flying flip that he'd caused a wreck. He didn't care that he had totaled both our vehicals. He didn't care that the wreck he initiated nearly caused several other vehicals to get damaged (other traffic started moving when their light turned green - my car was shoved into that oncoming traffic, and several people had to swerve and hit their breaks suddenly to avoid hitting either me or people who were attempting to avoid hitting me!) No, what he cared about was the damage that happened to His vehical, and the fact that he wasn't able to leave before the cops arrived. (Found out when I filed the insurance claim that his truck was actually owned by his JOB - he was a driver for Feed The Children - and he ended up losing his job over the incident, since it was one more wreck on his record than the company allowed for their drivers. He wanted to leave before the cops showed up so that it wouldn't go on his record, and therefore wouldn't lose him his job for incompitance!) According to his logic - and what he flat out told the cop, much to the combined disgust of everyone else there - was that had I gone ahead and gone through the light rather than stopping, he wouldn't have had to change lanes, and none of it would have happened - therefore it must have been My fault for actually Obeying the traffic laws! He seemed a bit shocked when the cop wrote him tickets for 6 different violations, and even more shocked later when his insurance was required to pay my doctor and therapy bills and replace my totaled car. The ironic part of this whole thing? I was on my way home from having Just been released by the doctor to go back to work after a Minor neck injury sustained exactly 1 month and 1 day previous to this - the injury sustained when I got rear ended by some half blind little old lady in her 80s who shouldn't even have been driving any longer, but who DID stop and was concerned about whether anyone had gotten injured!

NuevaVida -> RE: No Good Deed Goes Unpunished... (12/21/2008 2:51:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach NV, I guess part of my perspective on the whole "paralyzed" issue comes from a strange place. Having been the primary caregiver now for 2 seperate people who were partially paralyzed from different things (birth with my daughter, stroke with dad) - it's given me a very different outlook on both sides of that scenario. I don't find it hard to conceptualize being paralyzed, and the changes that have to be made, or the amount of things that are and aren't still possible with non-functioning limbs. Hi again :) I appreciate your perspective and that it comes from a different place than my own. Having recently fallen down some stairs, unable to walk for a few weeks, and totally dependent on others for my care, I realized if I were ever in that position for my lifetime, it would be unbearable for me. If I were ever in that position because of an error made by a well intended person, I would have so many emotions to work through. It's just not a simple situation for me. On the other hand, having hit two small bodies with my car - one smashed into the windshield and flew over the top of my car, the other rolled along the side of my car - both of whom lay totally still in the street afterwards...well when you think you have just killed two children it is beyond shocking. The panic I felt was compounded when a well intentioned onlooker began dragging one of the boys (by his shoulders) from where he landed. I found the words, "Don't move him!!!" literally screaming from out of my mouth (what if his neck was broken?) as I screamed to someone else to call 911 before I pretty much came apart. We all do the best we can, and in traumatic emergencies we react without realizing it. The "system" is in place to cover our mistakes. Oh and the mother of those boys sued me big time, even though the police report clearly stated I was not at fault for them darting into traffic (during rush hour) from behind a parked truck. My insurance company paid the bill and did not penalize me for it. I am not resentful for their suit; it would do me no good to be.

housesub4you -> RE: No Good Deed Goes Unpunished... (12/21/2008 3:27:58 PM)
This sounds like that movie The Incredibles...I wonder if the injured party ever saw that film, You know the superhero saves a persons life, but the person was trying to kill themselves and got injured when being saved. So they sue and win. Like almost all media reports, they print what will sell papers, or ads. No one really knows the truth from news report. Just enough to make people do just what everyone is doing here. It will be interesting to see how far this gets in court. Because if she (the women who thought she was saving her) is found guilty, then anyone helping anyone will be open to lawsuits no matter what the law states. I'll rip up my Red Cross Cards and only help my family if she loses. I for one do not feel it will get very far, they have to show intent and though not of the same level as in a criminal case, they will have to show that the woman "should" have known the car was not on fire or that the woman who was injuried refused her help and she helped anyway.

TribeTziyon -> RE: No Good Deed Goes Unpunished... (12/21/2008 3:46:39 PM)
I wonder if she is not suing as part to get some financial help from any quarter possible.

bestbabync -> RE: No Good Deed Goes Unpunished... (12/22/2008 7:39:52 AM)
coming from someone that has arrived on the scene of a major car accident/CAR ON FIRE! witnessing passengers burn to death is not easy! if i were the lady(rescuer) and thought the car might be on fire, i would have instinctively gotten the passengers to safety, no matter the means. nuff said!

Vendaval -> RE: No Good Deed Goes Unpunished... (12/28/2008 5:22:04 PM)
General Reply - The good Samaritan Laws differ from state to state, below are some articles to follow up on this story - On a site for EMS personnel "Every state’s Good Samaritan protections are different. This story provides you a good opportunity to review your state’s protections on volunteer and bystander aid in emergencies. Check with your local training officer about bringing in an attorney to discuss the particulars of the law from a rescuer perspective. Contact your state’s Attorney General’s office for information and interpretation of the law at that level. Ask them to review the California case and issue an official statement about the California case and how it relates to emergency services in your state." http://www.mediccast.com/blog/2008/12/22/good-samaritan-laws-under-assault/ and Examples of differences between states from About.com "Some laws still protect only medically trained rescuers, while others offer protection to any good Samaritan. The Code of Alabama (Section 6-5-332) restricts protection to trained rescuers or employees of the public education system, unless the victim is suffering a cardiac arrest. That means any victim of a motor vehicle accident in the state of Alabama, who isn't already dead, won't be helped by a lay rescuer unless that lay rescuer wants to take a chance on liability for any mistakes. Oklahoma's Good Samaritan Act only protects untrained rescuers if the care they provide is related to CPR or controlling bleeding -- a little better than Alabama, but not much. Not all good Samaritan laws limit protection of untrained rescuers. Vermont provides immunity from liability specifically for untrained rescuers, as long as they don't screw up really badly (defined as gross negligence). However, Vermont is unique in another way. All other states provide immunity if a person chooses to help, but do not require us to aid our fellow humans. Vermont does, however -- the state's good Samaritan law actually orders citizens to help those in need." http://firstaid.about.com/od/medicallegal/f/07_good_sam_law.htm

Irishknight -> RE: No Good Deed Goes Unpunished... (12/29/2008 9:25:25 PM)
One of the first things most people think when there is a serious car accident is that the car is going to burn or even explode just like in the movies every time. Hollywood drills it into people's heads that the car will always burn up or explode. Having worked accidents, I have seen several would be good samaritans who had to be physically stopped from moving accident victims. Had any of these individuals crippled the victims by their idiocy I would have gladly testified against them in court for "gross negligence." Quite honestly, that may well be the case here even though our initial instinct is outrage at the victim for "whining." My initial reaction was exactly that but then I realized that I was not on the scene and do not have enough facts to make a truly educated decision on this particular incident.

Lynnxz -> RE: No Good Deed Goes Unpunished... (12/30/2008 4:18:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Irishknight One of the first things most people think when there is a serious car accident is that the car is going to burn or even explode just like in the movies every time. Hollywood drills it into people's heads that the car will always burn up or explode. Good point. O.o Hadn't thought of that one.

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