The Balkanization of America...

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Hippiekinkster -> The Balkanization of America... (12/13/2008 2:43:09 PM)
by income and educational level. The article at the link speaks for itself, but here's an excerpt "Last month's election was historic and may even have been transformative, as many commentators said. But in one important respect, it changed nothing. The divide between Republicans and Democrats in America continues to grow. And it isn't just about politics. The division is also between rich and poor, between those with college educations and those without. On average, Republican communities have lower incomes and less education than Democratic communities. And those differences are growing as people migrate." http://www.slate.com/id/2206512/ As I said elsewhere, I am simply baffled by the phenomenon of working-class whites continually voting against their own best interests. I guess it's easier to hook them and reel them in with such pseudo-issues as "they're gonna take my guns" or "don't let homosexuals marry" or "the war against Xtianity" or "single-payer healthcare is Socialism". Meanwhile they are being economically ass-raped by their Republican corporate masters by having their jobs exported overseas, by having their communities decimated by Walmart & other big box stores, by having their wages held steady or cut while the bosses walk away with billions. Unbelievable.

FirmhandKY -> RE: The Balkanization of America... (12/13/2008 2:47:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster As I said elsewhere, I am simply baffled by the phenomenon of working-class whites continually voting against their own best interests. Perhaps they don't accept your definition of what is "in their own best interests". Why is your definition better/more accurate than theirs? Firm

popeye1250 -> RE: The Balkanization of America... (12/13/2008 3:23:06 PM)
I agree, that's why I don't vote for Republicans or Democrats.

Hippiekinkster -> RE: The Balkanization of America... (12/13/2008 6:23:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster As I said elsewhere, I am simply baffled by the phenomenon of working-class whites continually voting against their own best interests. Perhaps they don't accept your definition of what is "in their own best interests". Why is your definition better/more accurate than theirs? Firm Do you dispute that having affordable health care, food on the table, a roof over one's head, living wages, public schools like the ones I went to in New York, and affordable continuing education are in the best interests of those citizens in the lower economic strata? Those are what I would say are in their best interests.

Vendaval -> RE: The Balkanization of America... (12/13/2008 6:37:48 PM)
I hear you, HK and agree with the items you list as being in people's better interests.

FirmhandKY -> RE: The Balkanization of America... (12/13/2008 7:07:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster As I said elsewhere, I am simply baffled by the phenomenon of working-class whites continually voting against their own best interests. Perhaps they don't accept your definition of what is "in their own best interests". Why is your definition better/more accurate than theirs? Firm Do you dispute that having affordable health care, food on the table, a roof over one's head, living wages, public schools like the ones I went to in New York, and affordable continuing education are in the best interests of those citizens in the lower economic strata? Those are what I would say are in their best interests. I suspect that you see the need of "government" to be the provider or guarantor of all those things? Firm

Hippiekinkster -> RE: The Balkanization of America... (12/13/2008 7:13:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster As I said elsewhere, I am simply baffled by the phenomenon of working-class whites continually voting against their own best interests. Perhaps they don't accept your definition of what is "in their own best interests". Why is your definition better/more accurate than theirs? Firm Do you dispute that having affordable health care, food on the table, a roof over one's head, living wages, public schools like the ones I went to in New York, and affordable continuing education are in the best interests of those citizens in the lower economic strata? Those are what I would say are in their best interests. I suspect that you see the need of "government" to be the provider or guarantor of all those things? Firm Guarantor, yes, absolutely. I don't buy the whole Reaganite "government is bad" mantra. Obviously neither do the Busheviks, since the government under their junta is the largest and most indebted it has ever been.

FirmhandKY -> RE: The Balkanization of America... (12/13/2008 7:39:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster Guarantor, yes, absolutely. I don't buy the whole Reaganite "government is bad" mantra. Obviously neither do the Busheviks, since the government under their junta is the largest and most indebted it has ever been. Well, here is something that I believe and have learned in my life. The more power and responsibility you give to "government", the less freedom and power you keep for yourself. In effect you are trading freedom for security, and in the long run will end up with neither. Some of us value freedom more than security, and therefore vote our values, not yours. And we are perfectly fine with that, until people such as yourself, who "know what is good for us", attempt to take our freedom away "for our own good". When we resist, you call us all kinds of names, but generally along the lines of "stupid, uneducated, deceived, or naive". When your frustration level rise higher, you start to see conspiracies and evil machinations at work. A sure sign of a person you would not allow to be in charge of yourself or your government would be a religious person who is convinced that they "know what is best for you" based on their religious morality, and who then proceed to force you to adhere to their morality. But you (and other similar people who make the same argument that you do) are basing your comments about "what is best for us" from your own morality, which can be just as narrow-minded and short-sighted as any person that you might consider a religious bigot. This is not intended as a personal attack, but a general observation of people who are of a certain world-view and mindset, who fail to understand this dynamic. I find that these are the very people who claim that they have "open minds" and are "non-judgmental" and support "multi-culturalism", yet they fail to appreciate their own cultural blindness and biases. Sadly funny. Firm

celticlord2112 -> RE: The Balkanization of America... (12/13/2008 8:29:51 PM)
quote: I don't buy the whole Reaganite "government is bad" mantra. You should. Government is never in anyone's best interests. Government is not merely bad. It is evil. It is malicious. If anything is the enemy of the people, it is government.

Hippiekinkster -> RE: The Balkanization of America... (12/13/2008 8:29:54 PM)
How are you not free now? What freedom(s) do you believe are being denied you? You claim that I am trading freedom for security. I fail to see how having a functional public education system is trading freedom for security. I fail to see how making healthcare affordable for all Americans is trading freedom for security. I fail to see how making sure children don't go to bed hungry, and making sure they have a roof over their heads, is trading freedom for security. What freedom would you be denied so that kids can eat? Oh, I know. You don't want to pay taxes. You want to benefit from having a society with some structure to it, but you don't want to pay for it. Now, mind you, this is not a personal attack, just a general observation that those who whine about their freedoms don't want to take any responsibility for having a society in which they can exercise said freedoms. They are like spoiled children who whine about having to live by rules and having to pay a price for living in civilization. They think that if something doesn't directly benefit them, then it must be somehow interfering with their "freedoms". They would force their Law of the Jungle vision of utopia on the rest of us without regard to whom is going to suffer, or go hungry, or homeless. As long as it isn't them, it's OK. But once they are affected, all their fine "morals" go right out the window, and they are the first in line with their hats in their hand looking for special treatment from that evil, horrible government because they are special and they deserve it, somehow. The one message that comes through, loud and clear, from those people is "I got mine, Jack. Fuck you." They claim to abhore homelessness, and hunger, and the horrible spectacle of seeing older people having to choose between eating or buying their meds, but it is always someone else's problem. "That's what charities are for" and "their families should be helping them (never mind that their families are just as screwed) and those time-honored "blame the victim" rationalizations which are too numerous to list. These are the people who claim that their tent is big enough to include everyone, yet only 36 out of the 2000+ delegates to the RNC were other than white. They claim that they support the Vets, yet drive right on by that vet with the sign at the freeway exit that says, plain as day, Veteran of Gulf War One. Please Help." They pay lip service to the Christian ideal of "as ye care for the least of these" yet miss no opportunity to cut funding for education, insurance for children, neonatal care, nutritional education, affordable day care so people can actually have jobs, workplace safety regulations, rules for overtime pay, transportation for disabled people, food stamps, urban transit, and all the other programs which aid those who are less FORTUNATE. "I got mine, Jack. Fuck you."

Lordandmaster -> RE: The Balkanization of America... (12/13/2008 8:32:32 PM)
Does this mean we're all going to start speaking Bulgarian?

jlf1961 -> RE: The Balkanization of America... (12/13/2008 9:38:02 PM)
First of all HK, what you are referring to is polarization, which is completely different from the problems in the Balkans. If I may point out.... The problems in the Balkans was along ethnic and religious lines, with a bit of nationalism thrown in, not about health care, gun control OR taxes. Thus, your comparison is flawed, at least in connection with the argument you are trying to make. Indeed there is no common link between the two.

Hippiekinkster -> RE: The Balkanization of America... (12/13/2008 9:58:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 First of all HK, what you are referring to is polarization, which is completely different from the problems in the Balkans. If I may point out.... The problems in the Balkans was along ethnic and religious lines, with a bit of nationalism thrown in, not about health care, gun control OR taxes. Thus, your comparison is flawed, at least in connection with the argument you are trying to make. Indeed there is no common link between the two. Is this your subtle way of telling us that you didn't bother reading the article I linked to, but thought you'd comment anyway? I don't have to explain what a metaphor is, do I?

Musicmystery -> RE: The Balkanization of America... (12/13/2008 10:01:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 First of all HK, what you are referring to is polarization, which is completely different from the problems in the Balkans. If I may point out.... The problems in the Balkans was along ethnic and religious lines, with a bit of nationalism thrown in, not about health care, gun control OR taxes. Thus, your comparison is flawed, at least in connection with the argument you are trying to make. Indeed there is no common link between the two. He's not drawing a direct comparision. Balkanization has entered the language in a metaphorical sense: Bal⋅kan⋅ize [bawl-kuh-nahyz] –verb (used with object), -ized, -iz⋅ing. 1. to divide (a country, territory, etc.) into small, quarrelsome, ineffectual states. 2. (often lowercase) to divide (groups, areas, etc.) into contending and usually ineffectual factions: a movement to balkanize minority voters.

rexrgisformidoni -> RE: The Balkanization of America... (12/13/2008 10:04:12 PM)
It kind of rolls off of the tongue as well. Night all.

MzMia -> RE: The Balkanization of America... (12/13/2008 10:14:03 PM)
Hippie? Soon there will be a very big gap and divisions, between the "employed" and the "unemployed". Also Hippie, many will soon be getting their "3 am" wake up call, as the shit continues to hit the fan.

FirmhandKY -> RE: The Balkanization of America... (12/13/2008 10:27:30 PM)
HK, Instead of seeking understanding, you are seeking validation of your own beliefs. I believe that all of those things you listed as something to be desired and sought. I do not believe that your methods will achieve them at the price I wish to pay or will be achieved in a way that will shape a society in which I wish to call my own. And it has little to do with money. The easy answer is always to "pass a law". Let Congress pass a bill, let the Executive set up and run a program. Easy answers are rarely the right answers. But they certainly make some people feel good. "We got a law passed! We've got 100 million in the budget! Problem solved! I feel much better!" Which is what this is all about, anyway. Perhaps it's guilt of some sort on the part of people who share your world view, perhaps other reasons. I dunno. Almost without exception, regardless of how much "good" is done initially, using the force and coercion of government damages the freedom of all, and the health of a society. You don't believe this, and aren't interested in hearing my side of it. Your mind is closed. Firm

Hippiekinkster -> RE: The Balkanization of America... (12/13/2008 11:33:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY HK, Instead of seeking understanding, you are seeking validation of your own beliefs. I believe that all of those things you listed as something to be desired and sought. I do not believe that your methods will achieve them at the price I wish to pay or will be achieved in a way that will shape a society in which I wish to call my own. And it has little to do with money. The easy answer is always to "pass a law". Let Congress pass a bill, let the Executive set up and run a program. Easy answers are rarely the right answers. But they certainly make some people feel good. "We got a law passed! We've got 100 million in the budget! Problem solved! I feel much better!" Which is what this is all about, anyway. Perhaps it's guilt of some sort on the part of people who share your world view, perhaps other reasons. I dunno. Almost without exception, regardless of how much "good" is done initially, using the force and coercion of government damages the freedom of all, and the health of a society. You don't believe this, and aren't interested in hearing my side of it. Your mind is closed. Firm Let's face it; your mind is as closed as you claim mine is. I have gone back and forth over the years, from Ayn Rand to SDS, and the things I believe now are inescapably intertwined with my spirituality, such as it is. I have not said word one about "methods" used to achieve my ideals. You are the one who seems to be insisting that I favor certain "methods" of doing so. You have pre-judged me without having any idea as to how I would go about achieving those idealistic goals I hold dear. The readers can ascertain this for themselves. I also note how deftly you avoided answering my questions in the first paragraph of my post, post #10. In fact, your post #8 and your last post are really nothing more than subtle, low-key ad-hominem arguments, ending with this ironic gem: "You don't believe this, and aren't interested in hearing my side of it. Your mind is closed." I asked you point-blank what freedoms you felt you were being denied, and you ignored me. It's plain to see that I'm not the one who is indulging in projection here. I have concluded, however, that your statement " ...aren't interested in my side of it" is uncannily prescient. That clause, NOW, is a true statement.

Hippiekinkster -> RE: The Balkanization of America... (12/14/2008 1:49:28 AM)
I just ran across this, this abomination of a rule just passed (25 Nov. 2008) which lets states dig into the pockets of the poor and elderly for even more money. "On November 25, 2008, a new federal rule was passed that allows states to charge premiums and higher co-payments to Medicaid participants.[20] This rule will enable states to take in greater revenues, limiting financial losses associated with the program. Estimates figure that states will save $1.1 billion while the federal government will save nearly $1.4 billion. However, this means that the burden of financial responsibility will be placed on 13 million Medicaid recipients who will face a $1.3 billion increase in co-payments over 5 years.[21] The major concern is that this rule will create a disincentive for low-income people to seek healthcare. It is possible that this will force only the sickest participants to pay the increased premiums and it is unclear what long term effect this will have on the program." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicaid This sickens me.

blacksword404 -> RE: The Balkanization of America... (12/14/2008 2:19:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY HK, Instead of seeking understanding, you are seeking validation of your own beliefs. I believe that all of those things you listed as something to be desired and sought. I do not believe that your methods will achieve them at the price I wish to pay or will be achieved in a way that will shape a society in which I wish to call my own. And it has little to do with money. The easy answer is always to "pass a law". Let Congress pass a bill, let the Executive set up and run a program. Easy answers are rarely the right answers. But they certainly make some people feel good. "We got a law passed! We've got 100 million in the budget! Problem solved! I feel much better!" Which is what this is all about, anyway. Perhaps it's guilt of some sort on the part of people who share your world view, perhaps other reasons. I dunno. Almost without exception, regardless of how much "good" is done initially, using the force and coercion of government damages the freedom of all, and the health of a society. You don't believe this, and aren't interested in hearing my side of it. Your mind is closed. Firm Let's face it; your mind is as closed as you claim mine is. I have gone back and forth over the years, from Ayn Rand to SDS, and the things I believe now are inescapably intertwined with my spirituality, such as it is. I have not said word one about "methods" used to achieve my ideals. You are the one who seems to be insisting that I favor certain "methods" of doing so. You have pre-judged me without having any idea as to how I would go about achieving those idealistic goals I hold dear. The readers can ascertain this for themselves. I also note how deftly you avoided answering my questions in the first paragraph of my post, post #10. In fact, your post #8 and your last post are really nothing more than subtle, low-key ad-hominem arguments, ending with this ironic gem: "You don't believe this, and aren't interested in hearing my side of it. Your mind is closed." I asked you point-blank what freedoms you felt you were being denied, and you ignored me. It's plain to see that I'm not the one who is indulging in projection here. I have concluded, however, that your statement " ...aren't interested in my side of it" is uncannily prescient. That clause, NOW, is a true statement. You both are kind of closed-minded. Closed to each others argument. Which is why i am an not of either party. You both have very good points.

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