Real_Trouble
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Joined: 2/25/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BoiJen
I personally am completely surprised by the lack of american support for a REAL domestic industry receiving gov't funds to save THREE companies that provide far more jobs than that f the banks that have been bailed out already. The banks that have received billins more than they will ever give back to the American economy.
I definitely disagree with this segment. If we want to pay people to waste their time, I'd prefer they not produce crappy cars as a side effect and instead just sit at home.
Listen, GM is not a viable business. They're a classic strategic basket case: too many brands diluting their image while, at the same time, they are trying to sell in the low / mid market segments while being the ones with the highest costs. It just doesn't work; a lot of companies have tried it, and a lot of companies have failed trying it.
If GM wants our money, especially in what would be an actual bailout, unlike some of the other things that have happened, they should probably first have to explain how they intend to ever be profitable, as by most reasonable measures they have been losing either nominal money or real money for about ten years. It's the culmination of a slow death spiral we are seeing now.
I'm for the government spending to provide jobs, but fuck GM, to be blunt. Let them die. Hire their workers for infrastructure projects instead; I'd rather we be rebuilding our roads, dams, and the like than building cars nobody wants. And we need that stuff - ask Minneapolis about their bridge if you think otherwise.
quote:
No I don't begrudge congress for requiring a decent business plan from each of the automakers...but damn where the fuck was this kind of outrage over AIG and Citigroup raping your wallets...at the very least ford and GM give back by creating jobs and having SOMETHING, ANYTHING to show for it.
I'm not really sure I see where AIG has "raped" anyone's wallet.
After all, has anyone look at what they had to do to get government money? They are paying out an interest rate on their government loan (not grant!) that would make even Warren Buffet feel dirty, and their shareholders were pretty much wiped out. AIG gave up 80% of the ownership of their company overnight. The people who owned AIG are demolished; they have no upside in their remaining investment because the government controls it all and is milking it for money before unwinding the thing, in essence, while at the same time they are out 80 cents of every single dollar they had in the company.
AIG's owners got fucked to keep their employees paid, basically. The only "scandal" is their idiot executives, though since most of those huge bonuses were in stock options, I doubt they'll ever collect most of that money...
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C'mon people...these three companie contribute more to the American economy than Cittigroup and AIG ever could hope to contribute to the American economy. Wanna get pissed? Get pissed at the banks who rape you at more than $30 a pop (nsf fees, returned check fees, etc etc.) to pad their spending and mismanagement...and you better bet that soon it'll top $40 a pop.
Citi did not get into trouble with their retail banking division; it was their investment origination and proprietary trading that got them drilled, and those are investment banking activities. If Citi had no retail banking at all, ever, for any reason, they'd still be in the same shithole they are in now. Complaining about bank fees when the issue was mortgage backed security product origination, trading, and holding is totally nonsensical.
In fact, I think it's going to turn out that the consumer fucked Citi far harder than Citi fucked the consumer when credit card debt starts defaulting as we go forward. I do agree that banks are not popular, but saying they do nothing for the American economy is absurd. Having functional markets is what separates us from a lot of other countries, and brings investment here.
Look around the world at places without robust banking systems. Almost uniformly, their economies are a total fucking disaster.
What I'm outraged about with this government plan is solely that more is not being done in the way of classic Keynesian spending to create jobs and improve public works. That's a no-brainer textbook play to fight a recession and unemployment.
< Message edited by Real_Trouble -- 12/3/2008 4:07:48 PM >
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So far nothing to show for the bail out - 
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