Enron all over again? (Full Version)

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LadyEllen -> Enron all over again? (12/2/2008 4:57:44 AM)

Channel4's The Ascent Of Money continued last night with a look at joint stock companies.

Near the end of the broadcast, the presenter said that the current financial crisis is down to the Enron blueprint having been adopted throughout the financial industry. A former Enron executive said that this was likely, since former employees were now employed throughout the financial services sector.

Given that the executives of Enron faced criminal charges and given the veracity of what was said in this programme, (which would have been vetted by Channel 4's legal team), when can we expect 20+ year sentences for those at the core of all this, this time round?

E



pahunkboy -> RE: Enron all over again? (12/2/2008 5:11:45 AM)

Lady E, how much is the TV tax?   and are these vids available online?



LadyEllen -> RE: Enron all over again? (12/2/2008 5:50:29 AM)

Channel 4 UK online - you can download it; its The Ascent Of Money - well recommended, an hour per programme. Last night was episode three.

E



corysub -> RE: Enron all over again? (12/2/2008 7:05:45 AM)

Enron was a criminal enterprise.  Wall Street took advantage of relaxed government regulations of the mortgage market and encouragment by Congress to package securities and sell them to FannieMae, FreddieMac and institutions around the world
who loved the high yields.  Greed was also an important part of the equation, but greed is not criminal, and neither is stupidity.
I'm not defending Wall Street but the people at Lehman, Bear Stearns, Merrill Lyncy, Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley that
ran the mortgage backed areas and CDO products for those firms did  not come from Enron. The ability to "bet the balance sheet"
comes from the top....people like Zoe Cruz who ran the fixed income area at Morgan, for example, and who resigned when the
business blew up.



celticlord2112 -> RE: Enron all over again? (12/2/2008 7:33:35 AM)

quote:

Near the end of the broadcast, the presenter said that the current financial crisis is down to the Enron blueprint having been adopted throughout the financial industry.

A nice judgmental turn of a phrase, but what precisely is the "Enron blueprint"?  Further, how does the presenter have the prescience to reduce the whole of the global financial crisis and credit crunch to said "Enron blueprint"?

Crimes are specific things--there are specific violations of specific laws.  What specific violations of specific laws are being alleged, and by whom?

It is possible, even probable, that some of what led to the crisis is of a criminal nature; however, no crisis, not even this one, is wholly criminal.  If it's wholly anything, it's wholly stupid, but that is all.

If we are going to clamor for certain bad actors to be put in jail, we should be clear in our minds on what charge we intend to incarcerate.



LadyEllen -> RE: Enron all over again? (12/2/2008 7:46:48 AM)

Just reporting what was said CL

The idea seemed to be that like Enron, big bad debts have been accounted "off balance sheet" in the financial industry, and even turned into sizeable profits by way of various shenanigans, pushing up share prices on the apparent excellent performance of the companies in the sector.

When the apparent profits are then subsequently discovered to be big bad debts, and the big bad debts are moved back onto the balance sheet, the true situation becomes apparent and the share prices collapse along with the creditworthiness of the companies (since their assets are found to be much less than formerly thought, and their net assets are similarly affected).

The question of liability then turns on whether the mechanisms employed to move the big bad debts off balance sheet and to turn them into apparent profits were legal accounting procedures with inadvertent effects subsequently produced, or deliberate attempts at falsification with a pecuniary advantage in mind. The question of prosecution turns on the intricacy with which the whole was executed and whether from that a fair trial of any sort could be had, the average person having little to no understanding of these matters.

Bush Snr & Co didnt come out of it well either by the way; Enron was acounted as being down to the deregulation of energy markets and control of money supply by the Fed during his presidency following consistent support for Bush Snr & Co by Ken Lay and lobbying by the latter to produce the right conditions for Enron to thrive. The head of the Fed received an Enron award apparently, a week or so before the collapse.

E



MrRodgers -> RE: Enron all over again? (12/2/2008 9:08:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Near the end of the broadcast, the presenter said that the current financial crisis is down to the Enron blueprint having been adopted throughout the financial industry.

A nice judgmental turn of a phrase, but what precisely is the "Enron blueprint"?  Further, how does the presenter have the prescience to reduce the whole of the global financial crisis and credit crunch to said "Enron blueprint"?

Crimes are specific things--there are specific violations of specific laws.  What specific violations of specific laws are being alleged, and by whom?

It is possible, even probable, that some of what led to the crisis is of a criminal nature; however, no crisis, not even this one, is wholly criminal.  If it's wholly anything, it's wholly stupid, but that is all.

If we are going to clamor for certain bad actors to be put in jail, we should be clear in our minds on what charge we intend to incarcerate.


Well the real paper record of any 'Enron blueprint' was conveniently reduced to dust when WTC 7 (NY SEC office) was demolished but that's another topic.

The facts are that by law, the plutocracy deregulated energy bringing in new paper upon which both principals and wall street could speculate. These laws are continually being written by the very people (lobbiest) for which they are passed and prospectively meant to regulate. Fat chance kinkroids.

Two not so small examples were that it was not illegal for Enron to require employees to take the employer contribution to their 401Ks in Enron stock. All the while management was promoting the stock but selling it as fast as they could. Now get this...it was NOT illegal for Enron to require that employees could NOT sell their Enron stock for a minimum period of time, I think two years. That's the obvious flim-flam of capitalism so we extended that in general...to another piece of paper called a MBS (mortgage backed securities)



RealityLicks -> RE: Enron all over again? (12/2/2008 9:19:14 AM)

On a slightly different note and with apologies to those in this debate, I wondered whether anyone outside the UK had managed to watch this programme from the online service 4 OnDemand?  Also curious to see if you can view stuff on BBC iPlayer?



celticlord2112 -> RE: Enron all over again? (12/2/2008 9:22:13 AM)

My questions are in reference to the current financial crisis.

Enron is old news.



kittinSol -> RE: Enron all over again? (12/2/2008 9:25:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
Enron is old news.


Yes, it's only part of a series of unfortunate but random events [8|] .



UncleNasty -> RE: Enron all over again? (12/2/2008 9:52:47 AM)

Yes CL crimes are specific things.

However, it is not safe to assume that because a crime has been committed there will be prosecutions. The amount of discretion law enforcement has in this regard is huge and extreme. It only takes the smallest amount of resistance to keep prosecutions from occurring.

In a case I have been involved in recently the opposing party has committed a number of crimes and violations, including, but not limited to, evidence fabrication, forgery, subbornation of perjury, perjury, tampering with public records... They used these acts as a means to secure judgment against me.

Thus far the courts have ignored evidence I have presented to it. The local prosecutor is not interested in even looking at the information I have (it was a civil action so they were not opposing counsel). The Commonwealth Attorney and State Attorney General are equally disinterested in reviewing my evidence.

In essence I have approached them saying "I believe this party has committed serious crimes AND I have evidence to substantiate and support my beliefs." Their response has been "We don't care what evidence you have or whether your beliefs are accurate. Go away."

There is little citizens can do to force these officials to do their jobs.

I am getting some interest from the FBI. I plan to also approach and inform the Securities and Exchange Commission. Doubtful interest from either of them will have much impact on my circumstances, even if the ultimate result is prosecution and conviction. And our conversations are only just beginning. There is no telling where they might lead.

Expecting an accurate understanding to come from our judiciary is more a pipedream than a reality.

OHUN



pahunkboy -> RE: Enron all over again? (12/2/2008 2:44:56 PM)

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aRlALpvxQyZo&refer=home    then try not to be surprised that AIG figured a way to dole out bonuses, after promising not to, sort of.   never mind that you and I are paying for it.



pahunkboy -> RE: Enron all over again? (12/2/2008 2:47:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Channel 4 UK online - you can download it; its The Ascent Of Money - well recommended, an hour per programme. Last night was episode three.

E


http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/A/ascent-of-money/index.html   here it is.  6 parts.  :-)



NorthernGent -> RE: Enron all over again? (12/2/2008 2:53:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

My questions are in reference to the current financial crisis.

Enron is old news.



Enron failed as a consequence of directors helping themselves - no one was regulating their behaviour. You must see some common ground?



celticlord2112 -> RE: Enron all over again? (12/2/2008 3:07:45 PM)

There may be some common ground, but it was the OP drawing the parallels. For myself, I am less than certain the parallels are valid--that case I believe has yet to be made.



pahunkboy -> RE: Enron all over again? (12/3/2008 4:46:56 AM)

this is the logic that says the amount on the accounting sheet IS the amount of gold in the vault.....      maybe.



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