RE: Self Improvement for Dominants

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NorthernGent -> RE: Self Improvement for Dominants (11/30/2008 8:12:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover If she is not, it's like trying to control a housecat. Good luck with that. My posts assume that the partner is an adult, who has experience of employing her reason to good effect. But, anyone taking a 'house cat' into his home should be prepared to stay the course; otherwise, the good samaritan has failed himself and the 'house cat' - informed, responsible decision making and accepting the consequences of such decision making etc. I stand by my earlier post: authority is earned in one form or another, and I do not believe that wanting to direct proceedings, but not accepting responsiblity for that direction, is earning authority.

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Self Improvement for Dominants (11/30/2008 8:15:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover The other reason this analogy doesn't work is that the CEO is answerable to someone else... a board, stockholders, etc. whereas a Dominant is not. And if you're talking about a sole proprietor, then he/she is responsible only to themself and may keep poor performing employees for any reason (might be a brother in law, after all). Similarly, a Dominant may keep an underperforming submissive/slave for any reason they desire. There's no obligation that they do otherwise. John I would disagree that the analogy of a businessman is unsuited to use in D/s situations. Consider this brief quote: "He or she is responsible only to hirself and may keep poor performing employees for any reason..." Yes, the sole proprietor can keep an underperforming individual, for any reason xhe chooses, without risk of censure... however, that does not, in any way, abrogate from hir the -responsibility- of the business' success. Xhe is also responsible for making sure that any matter 'dropped' by the underperforming employee is, somehow, appropriately covered... whether xhe has to do it hirself, or is able to assign it to someone else who makes sure that it happens. If that business-owner fails to do so, then, in turn, any failure of success in the business is also hirs to bear the burden of. In the same way, though the dominant hand (whether that hand is comprised of one person or of multiple people) is responsible for the management of, and discipline of, the submissive hand, that dominant hand may, for any reason, keep an underperforming submissive individual... which, in no way, abrogates hir responsibility in managing, directing, shaping, and controlling that situation to hir full capacity. It also requires that, somehow, the areas that are neglected by said poorly-performing submissive be sorted out in such a way that the household, as a whole, does not suffer. Even in a case where there is a romantic attachment to a particular submissive individual, the entire dynamic can collapse if proper management and protection of the dynamic's assets are not attended to by the dominant individual. I noted that in the original analogy, the poster used the word "businessman", not CEO -- to me, though not nearly romantic enough for many, the analogy of the businessman... in particular, the sole proprietor... is actually perfectly suited to the running of a monarchically or oligarchically-controlled household, including households based on dominance/submission dynamics. I will concede, though, that I am more pragmatic than romantic in my own approach to maintaining an effective household, which is, perhaps, why such an analogy seems particularly well suited to dynamics-based relationships, for me.

IronBear -> RE: Self Improvement for Dominants (11/30/2008 8:31:15 AM)
I am a great supporter of self improvement in all facits of a person's life. Sometimes yoiu may need assistance like a gym membership or if affordable, a personal trainer, alternatively you will require a teacher or tutor if you are improving your education. Whilst i agree with some comments warning the OP about setting excessively high standards for yourself, I will say that it is good to have short term attainable goals as well as long term goals which will be attainable in due course, I also am a firm believer in having dreams of what you want and one dream of something impossible which at the present time you cant ever see yourself attaining but in time with the right application of the right knowledge or ability which you have gained, you may just attain that impossible goal. All this means as you improve yourself, you also change yourself for the better (we hope). This is nothing new as any business motivator or trainer will tell you and what works in other areas of your life can and will work in your kink life too..

NorthernGent -> RE: Self Improvement for Dominants (11/30/2008 8:57:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover If a CEO believes an employee is not fulfilling their obligations, they may be replaced. So if you're using this analogy, you have to allow for the Dominant to replace the submissive/slave without such action negatively impacting the Dominant's responsibility (in fact, you could make the argument that both the Dominant and CEO are responsible to make the change). The other reason this analogy doesn't work is that the CEO is answerable to someone else... a board, stockholders, etc. whereas a Dominant is not. And if you're talking about a sole proprietor, then he/she is responsible only to themself and may keep poor performing employees for any reason (might be a brother in law, after all). Similarly, a Dominant may keep an underperforming submissive/slave for any reason they desire. There's no obligation that they do otherwise. John 'His business' - as in the owner. Let's say the owners are shareholders. Well, they accept the risks and rewards associated with investing. The onus is on the investor to make an informed choice. The investor loses his money through an ill-conceived decision? Who does the owner look to for responsibility? No one will take a share of the losses for him - the buck stops with him. The onus is on the shareholder to choose wisely; the onus is on the shareholder to improve performance where not satisfactory. Yes, the shareholder can sell his shares and walk away, but I'm sure he'd reflect on why his investment did not generate the desired return. His decision, his direction, his responsibility. Yeah, it takes two to tango, but this ain't a partnership of equal authority, and I'd suggest that responsibility should be in line with share of authority. Were both partners sharing decision making, I'd accept your point; but where one partner is taking the important decisions, I'm struggling to see how that partner could conceivably not accept responsibility for the consequences of those decisions. Edited for quotes.

Jeptha -> RE: Self Improvement for Dominants (11/30/2008 10:59:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW ...Thank you, masterslave247, for sharing your goals. You've reminded me of how crucial it is for me to make -concrete- the goals for my own progress over the coming days, weeks, seasons, and years. I agree with that sentiment. While I have become more organized and disciplined over time, my "natural" inclination is still to drift along and "go with the flow" to quite a large degree. It is a good, none-stressfull way to live, but, on the other hand - life is short! I like the model you present of writing down goals, and I like how Calla refers to mapping out goals in both the long term and short term (What will I do this week? Today?)

Rover -> RE: Self Improvement for Dominants (11/30/2008 11:33:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: Rover If she is not, it's like trying to control a housecat. Good luck with that. My posts assume that the partner is an adult, who has experience of employing her reason to good effect. Lots of adults are irresponsible. quote: But, anyone taking a 'house cat' into his home should be prepared to stay the course; otherwise, the good samaritan has failed himself and the 'house cat' - informed, responsible decision making and accepting the consequences of such decision making etc. You know what you're getting with a housecat. Not so with a human. quote: I stand by my earlier post: authority is earned in one form or another, and I do not believe that wanting to direct proceedings, but not accepting responsiblity for that direction, is earning authority. And I stand by my earlier post, that you can't accept responsibility for anyone but yourself. At some point you have to rely upon someone else to hold up their end of the bargain, unless you are prepared to hold it up for them. And frankly, that would leave me wondering who was submissive to whom. John

Rover -> RE: Self Improvement for Dominants (11/30/2008 11:45:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Let's say the owners are shareholders. Well, they accept the risks and rewards associated with investing. The onus is on the investor to make an informed choice. The investor loses his money through an ill-conceived decision? Who does the owner look to for responsibility? No one will take a share of the losses for him - the buck stops with him. But the responsibility for creating a profit or loss does not rest solely upon the shoulders of the owner. The owner needs capable and responsible employees. If that were not the case, then any drunk off the street would yield comparable results. I know that it's nice to concieve of a single individual as taking sole responsibility for the success or failure of a business, or a relationship. It sounds so great... so... responsible. It's just not true in either case. quote: Yeah, it takes two to tango, but this ain't a partnership of equal authority, and I'd suggest that responsibility should be in line with share of authority. Responsibility does not rest solely with authority. Using your theory, a submissive's/slave's/bottom's safety would rest solely with their Dominant/Top. We know that's not the case. We know that everyone, Top and bottom, Dominant and submissive/slave, is ultimately responsible for their own safety. These are great sounding fantasies that make for great reading in erotic novels, but they aren't the sort of realistic principles upon which one can build a life, or a relationship. quote: Were both partners sharing decision making, I'd accept your point; but where one partner is taking the important decisions, I'm struggling to see how that partner could conceivably not accept responsibility for the consequences of those decisions. After making a decision, nothing happens unless your partner is responsible enough to follow through on them. Unless you intend to do it all. In which case, who is submitting to whom? John

KnightofMists -> RE: Self Improvement for Dominants (11/30/2008 12:20:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover After making a decision, nothing happens unless your partner is responsible enough to follow through on them. Unless you intend to do it all. In which case, who is submitting to whom? John No surprize here... but I am agreeing with John on the points of this thread. The idea that total authority = total responsibilty is very much an adequate equation. For it to be accurate.. then the following equation would have to be equally true... Decision = Consequence. It maybe appear that the equation is accurate... but infact the equation is missing variables. A decision is only a choice or direction of action. But it is not the actually actions in of itself. The equation Decision + Action = consequence is closer to the reality. Thou the Dominant/Master maybe be making the decison and as such totally responsible for the decision.. they are not the only one that will take the action that will lead to the consequences or outcome. For example. The captain of the ship will chart the direction of the ship but it is the sailors that are taking action to raise the sails etc that will get the ship to move in that direction. Improper excution on the part of those sailors will and can result in the ship not moving in the choosen direction. This improper excution is not the responsibility of the captain.. but it is the captains responsibility make the correction.. hold the sailors accountable etc. Everyone is responsible for their own actions that contribute to the direction of the relationship. Another point. For many the concept of Total Authority equates to all decisions are made by the person in the position of authority. This far from accurate, in fact, everyone makes choices(decisions) for the actions they take on in a moment to moment basis. Total Authority is not about a person making all decisions but a person having the authority to make the decisions necessary to bring about the desired consequences. A Dominant/Master in a Total Authority dynamic has a significant responsibility for the consequences for where the relationship goes, but not all responsibility. I do have responsibility to hold accountable the actions of the incompetent sailor that is affecting negatively my desired consequences. But... the responsibility of those incompetent actions are that of the sailor, my responsibility is to correct that sailor so that we can reach our destination. Likewise, skilled and effective execution of others is not my credit to take or responsibility. They have made the necessary choices in their life to learn the skills needed to execute skillfully and effectively. Give credit where it is due. It is not my responsibility that we had a wonderful incredible thanksgiving supper (last month).. I didn't cook that meal. I made a decision that I wanted the meal.. established the standard.. .but the results was largely achieved by my girls... it was not I that taught them to cook such a meal. For me to claim total responsibility for such an incredible meal just seem like shallow ego inflating rather than any basis of reality or truth.

Sexycelticlady -> RE: Self Improvement for Dominants (11/30/2008 2:28:47 PM)
I agree with the replies saying that no individual is responsible for another individuals actions. The Dom/me/Master/Mistress may be in charge, but is the the slave/subs choice to obey and serve, it is the slave/subs choice to meet the requirements or standards set, if they exceed them or fail it is due to the slave/sub, not the Dom/Master. The Top can always use incentives, be they punishment or reward, but the bottom is the one who makes the choice in how they fullfill their part of the relationship. Choice and free will of individuals is not removed in the BDSM world.

NorthernGent -> RE: Self Improvement for Dominants (11/30/2008 2:34:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover Lots of adults are irresponsible. They are indeed, and this necessitates an informed choice. Taking on an irresponsible adult, is irresponsible on the part of the other partner. quote: ORIGINAL: Rover You know what you're getting with a housecat. Not so with a human. Well, yeah, 'suppose this is true where you want someone who doesn't know whether to climb up the curtains or drink milk. Humans are reasonable where given the space to employ their reason in all security. They're predictable providing their environment is predictable. quote: ORIGINAL: Rover And I stand by my earlier post, that you can't accept responsibility for anyone but yourself. At some point you have to rely upon someone else to hold up their end of the bargain, unless you are prepared to hold it up for them. And frankly, that would leave me wondering who was submissive to whom. 'Course there are two ends to the bargain. I'm not talking of propping up a partner. I'm talking of making sure you're a match before beginning the relationship, and then managing the bargain. Now, I'll give some ground here. There will be certain scenarios where events could not have been forseen, and I would not take responsibility in such scenarios; these, however, are few and far between. Say you want a decent cook in your life - well, take the time to understand whether or not she's enthusiastic and able before taking her on, and enforce your needs as required. I can't see a problem providing time has been invested upfront and you're prepared to make sure it happens - I suppose she could start throwing my food off the walls because Sandra from Pop Idol has been voted out, but then to go down that road there'd be other indications of her volatile frame of mind. John, I'm not sure whether we're a million miles away, or something has been lost in translation somewhere along the lines - an example of what you consider to be a situation for which you would not take responsibility, may prove useful. Edited for quotes.

NorthernGent -> RE: Self Improvement for Dominants (11/30/2008 2:51:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sexycelticlady The Dom/me/Master/Mistress may be in charge, but is the the slave/subs choice to obey and serve, it is the slave/subs choice to meet the requirements or standards set, if they exceed them or fail it is due to the slave/sub, not the Dom/Master. There is always choice - always, in any given scenario. Then there is informed choice. Who is responsible for providing the overall framework and information for her to behave as you expect? Why is she coming to you in the first place, if she doesn't need this framework determined by you? What is she getting from the bargain if not this framework? In the event she's ready and willing to make her own choices and stand or fall by them, then what is her reason for coming to you? Assuming you have chosen someone who is enthusiastic and able, well, it's your management that will win the day. quote: ORIGINAL: Sexycelticlady The Top can always use incentives, be they punishment or reward, but the bottom is the one who makes the choice in how they fullfill their part of the relationship. Choice and free will of individuals is not removed in the BDSM world. The point of incentives such as reward and discipline is to generate the behaviour you expect. Who is taking the action to generate the required behaviour?

Rover -> RE: Self Improvement for Dominants (11/30/2008 2:52:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent 'Course there are two ends to the bargain. I'm not talking of propping up a partner. I'm talking of making sure you're a match before beginning the relationship, and then managing the bargain. Now, I'll give some ground here. There will be certain scenarios where events could not have been forseen, and I would not take responsibility in such scenarios; these, however, are few and far between. Well, now you're changing the rules. Previously you said: quote: Total authority demands total responsibility. I presumed when you said "total", you meant total. Not "total except in those few instances when it's not". The scenarios that are few and far between are exactly the times that I'm talking about. The times when your partner is not responsibly carrying out your instructions. Presumably those times are not common and frequent, or you (in the general sense) really do have an issue regarding the choices you make in a partner. But either way, those times exactly prove the point.... that you can't be responsible for their actions. quote: John, I'm not sure whether we're a million miles away, or something has been lost in translation somewhere along the lines - an example of what you consider to be a situation for which you would not take responsibility, may prove useful. I think we're probably closer than it might appear. But so long as you cling to an absolute (ie: Total authority demands total responsibility) then we're not going to bridge that gap. But I'm not sure how committed you really are to that assertion, as you have now stipulated to the existence of exceptions. And it is the existence of those exceptions that prove the point that no one can be responsible for the actions of another. The best that can be said is that you are responsible for what they are taught and instructed. How, or if, that is employed is up to someone else. John

NorthernGent -> RE: Self Improvement for Dominants (11/30/2008 3:09:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover Well, now you're changing the rules. There's no unswerving ability to include every pertinent piece of information here, John. Yet nowhere in my rule book does it state that I can't add something post reflection. quote: ORIGINAL: Rover I presumed when you said "total", you meant total. 'Not a particularly enlightening choice of word. I should have used 'overall', and that stands except in the rare cases where you couldn't have forseen unfolding events. quote: ORIGINAL: Rover The scenarios that are few and far between are exactly the times that I'm talking about. I think we're probably closer than it might appear. Were you to offer an example, then we may draw a conclusion on exactly how close we are.

Sexycelticlady -> RE: Self Improvement for Dominants (11/30/2008 4:02:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: Sexycelticlady The Dom/me/Master/Mistress may be in charge, but is the the slave/subs choice to obey and serve, it is the slave/subs choice to meet the requirements or standards set, if they exceed them or fail it is due to the slave/sub, not the Dom/Master. There is always choice - always, in any given scenario. Then there is informed choice. Who is responsible for providing the overall framework and information for her to behave as you expect? Why is she coming to you in the first place, if she doesn't need this framework determined by you? What is she getting from the bargain if not this framework? In the event she's ready and willing to make her own choices and stand or fall by them, then what is her reason for coming to you? Assuming you have chosen someone who is enthusiastic and able, well, it's your management that will win the day. quote: ORIGINAL: Sexycelticlady The Top can always use incentives, be they punishment or reward, but the bottom is the one who makes the choice in how they fullfill their part of the relationship. Choice and free will of individuals is not removed in the BDSM world. The point of incentives such as reward and discipline is to generate the behaviour you expect. Who is taking the action to generate the required behaviour? The Dom sets the standards s/he expects, I have already stated that. But the Dom does not chose whether the sub abides by them, that is the sub's choice and only the sub's choice. You cannot be responsible for another person's actions. To the bolded part - no, it is not your management that will win the day. You can manage until the cows come home but unless the sub puts in the effort it will come to nothing. It is a partnership, a joint effort between two people. Either one of them on their own will not have the same result as two people striving for the same goal. Who is taking the action? The sub is taking the action, you are setting the rules. Unless you claim to be able to manipulate someone else's body, their muscles, their decisions against their own freewill? I had a scene with someone at a dungeon/club and it went wrong due to an issue with my joints that at the time I didn't know could be an issue, my hand and arm lost all feeling. It was MY responsibility to call the safeword and end the scene. The Dom did not know what I was feeling and had no way of knowing. I took the responsibility on myself as soon as I realised there was a problem. How in that senario did the Dom have the responsibility for my actions?

Rover -> RE: Self Improvement for Dominants (11/30/2008 5:44:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Were you to offer an example, then we may draw a conclusion on exactly how close we are. Any time I have given her instructions that she fails to fulfill, the responsibility (or irresponsibility) is hers... not mine. If I tell her to have dinner ready at six and it's not, that's on her. If I tell her to wear the red panties and she does not, that's on her. If she has been trained to make my coffee to my taste and she does not, that's on her. If I tell her to mail my nephew's birthday gift by Wednesday in order for him to receive it on time and she does not, that's on her. If I instruct her on what constitutes acceptable behavior and she misbehaves, that's on her. Each of those are examples in which I rely upon her to be responsible, and to fulfill my instructions and expectations. And the responsibility for that is entirely hers. Whereas the responsibility for the consequences is all mine. John

yourMissTress -> RE: Self Improvement for Dominants (11/30/2008 6:23:03 PM)
Still agreeing with John. I'm going to try to expand on the point I attempted to make earlier regarding the dominant taking full responsibility for the direction of the relationship. Two people can have a fulfilling and productive relationship, the dominant guiding the sub in the direction both partners want to go, the submissive following along happily. As the two grow and change as people do over time, the submissive may learn that this is not the path for them, or they want to go a different direction, or they are no longer in love with the dominant. Does the responsibility for the end of this relationship fall on the dominant? Is the dominant responsible for the direction of the submissive's heart? I just think there are too many variables when we are discussing human beings to say that anyone can take full and complete responsibility for another or a relationship.

NorthernGent -> RE: Self Improvement for Dominants (12/1/2008 2:02:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Were you to offer an example, then we may draw a conclusion on exactly how close we are. Any time I have given her instructions that she fails to fulfill, the responsibility (or irresponsibility) is hers... not mine. If I tell her to have dinner ready at six and it's not, that's on her. If I tell her to wear the red panties and she does not, that's on her. If she has been trained to make my coffee to my taste and she does not, that's on her. If I tell her to mail my nephew's birthday gift by Wednesday in order for him to receive it on time and she does not, that's on her. If I instruct her on what constitutes acceptable behavior and she misbehaves, that's on her. Each of those are examples in which I rely upon her to be responsible, and to fulfill my instructions and expectations. And the responsibility for that is entirely hers. Whereas the responsibility for the consequences is all mine. John A fair slice of the gap is due to what appears to be different standards when courting women. The slightest indication that a woman couldn't organise herself to make dinner by a certain time, would lead me to not go anywhere near her, and I would have worked this out well before any relationship. I mean, a pigeon could your mail your post on time; a monkey could bring you food on time. I'm talking of a willing and able woman, with many strings to her bow. Such a woman is laying it on a plate for you; there's no use in passing the buck where she begins at more than capable enthusiast, and ends at half-hearted also-ran.

mystickoolaid -> RE: Self Improvement for Dominants (12/1/2008 2:12:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chamberqueen I agree with Rover. I also have a suggestion for the poly. When adding a new person to the mix it is very important that the original partner knows that she is as appreciated as ever. Even if I woman feels that she is completely ready for this she can have moments when she feels frustrated that she is not enough for her Master and this can lead to sadness or small signs of rebellion. You might want to add to your poly statement that you will do your best to make sure that each sub or slave feels truly appreciated and cared for and that you will watch for any signs of dissension. It's also possible to create a 'poly' household that doesn't include polyamory or polygamy. 'Poly' just means multiple, it is the ending that defines what you have multiples of. So if your alpha is cool with certain things but not others, make sure to listen and do your best to incorporate her in the decisions or she'll be unhappy and things will fall apart.

Rover -> RE: Self Improvement for Dominants (12/1/2008 3:05:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent A fair slice of the gap is due to what appears to be different standards when courting women. Please, do tell me about my standards when courting women. And then tell me how a perfect stranger thousands of miles away would have any idea what standards or practices I have. quote: The slightest indication that a woman couldn't organise herself to make dinner by a certain time, would lead me to not go anywhere near her, and I would have worked this out well before any relationship. I mean, a pigeon could your mail your post on time; a monkey could bring you food on time. Neither the pigoen or monkey could do so consistently, without direct supervision. Other than that, what is the relevance to this thread? quote: I'm talking of a willing and able woman, with many strings to her bow. Such a woman is laying it on a plate for you; there's no use in passing the buck where she begins at more than capable enthusiast, and ends at half-hearted also-ran. Honestly, I have no idea what you mean here (and elsewhere for that matter). I know you're a smart guy, so chalk it up to me being daft. You'll just have to be a bit more direct for me to understand. John

NorthernGent -> RE: Self Improvement for Dominants (12/1/2008 3:22:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover how a perfect stranger thousands of miles away would have any idea what standards or practices I have. I can only go off your posts/examples. quote: ORIGINAL: Rover Neither the pigoen or monkey could do so consistently, without direct supervision. Other than that, what is the relevance to this thread? She's only putting on a pair of knickers and throwing a few potatoes in a pan, John......I mean, are you asking her to absail down the building, smash her way through the window and make her way to the stove while you're taking pot shots at her with a bazooka? In the event she can't manage the simplest of tasks, then I'd estimate she doesn't have a great deal to bargain with; never mind being good for her side of the bargain. quote: ORIGINAL: Rover You'll just have to be a bit more direct for me to understand. Turning wine into water.

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