RE: failure

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cpK69 -> RE: failure (11/30/2008 5:54:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or cpk, that is metaphor and analogy. Don't start a war over it. T I wasn't trying to start a war over it; only trying to understand what was said. Kim

LadyEllen -> RE: failure (11/30/2008 7:30:43 AM)
I am a hopeless failure. I mean, to this day I'm still not entirely sure which way to tighten and which way to loosen a screw or a bolt. Anything mechanical that needs assembling or repairing sends me running; truly a useless loser at anything practical. On the other hand, I am a spectacular success who can win out without too much effort over the vast majority of the population when it comes to knowledge, its acquisition and application and especially in terms of its communication. Truly a brilliant winner. Much of our socio-economic troubles arise from the false notion that there is only one form of success - my kind. Yet when my car has broken down, who is the loser, who is the useless failure then? And who the brilliant winner? And when we run an economy on the same lines - that "booksmarts" is the arbiter of success and we dismiss any other form of success such as my practical friend might be suited to achieve, and worse still dismiss him as a stupid loser because he cannot conform to the single model which we enforce through our ideas of equality, and our economy breaks down because of that? It seems to me that my success is dependent on others' success. If I deny them their opportunities to contribute then eventually my success will be undermined. Its no good some guy in China knowing how to fix my car; I need someone here. With my car broken down all my booksmarts are totally useless in that I cant get to the office to make my contribution with them. We require a total system overhaul to recognise the interdependence of human societies. We need to do away with the "one size fits all" model of success that "equality" produces, and replace it with equality of opportunity that recognises the innate differences between us and values them each as important contributions to the whole. Success is to be contributing to the whole and receiving one's dues for that, whatever one's talents. Failure is to be forced into making a contribution to which one is not suited or being denied the opportunity to contribute at all, because one's talents do not fit the model. Happiness and unhappiness arise from the same mechanisms - the latter of which our societies are riddled with for the reasons described here, and no amount of consumerism can replace that true success and true happiness that we could instead procure. E

Aneirin -> RE: failure (11/30/2008 8:12:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen I am a hopeless failure. I mean, to this day I'm still not entirely sure which way to tighten and which way to loosen a screw or a bolt. Anything mechanical that needs assembling or repairing sends me running; truly a useless loser at anything practical. On the other hand, I am a spectacular success who can win out without too much effort over the vast majority of the population when it comes to knowledge, its acquisition and application and especially in terms of its communication. Truly a brilliant winner. Much of our socio-economic troubles arise from the false notion that there is only one form of success - my kind. Yet when my car has broken down, who is the loser, who is the useless failure then? And who the brilliant winner? And when we run an economy on the same lines - that "booksmarts" is the arbiter of success and we dismiss any other form of success such as my practical friend might be suited to achieve, and worse still dismiss him as a stupid loser because he cannot conform to the single model which we enforce through our ideas of equality, and our economy breaks down because of that? It seems to me that my success is dependent on others' success. If I deny them their opportunities to contribute then eventually my success will be undermined. Its no good some guy in China knowing how to fix my car; I need someone here. With my car broken down all my booksmarts are totally useless in that I cant get to the office to make my contribution with them. We require a total system overhaul to recognise the interdependence of human societies. We need to do away with the "one size fits all" model of success that "equality" produces, and replace it with equality of opportunity that recognises the innate differences between us and values them each as important contributions to the whole. Success is to be contributing to the whole and receiving one's dues for that, whatever one's talents. Failure is to be forced into making a contribution to which one is not suited or being denied the opportunity to contribute at all, because one's talents do not fit the model. Happiness and unhappiness arise from the same mechanisms - the latter of which our societies are riddled with for the reasons described here, and no amount of consumerism can replace that true success and true happiness that we could instead procure. E Aw, you are not a failure if you do not know what way to turn a bolt to undo it, just turn it one way and eventually it will come undone, maybe permanently, but it will be undone either way.

UncleNasty -> RE: failure (11/30/2008 8:15:12 AM)
"We need to do away with the "one size fits all" model of success that "equality" produces..." As a heterosexual white male I doubt I could ever make statements like the above in public without being stoned to death, at least figuratively. And for a long time I have believed that to be one of the problems. One handed Uncle Nasty

CaringandReal -> RE: failure (11/30/2008 8:27:04 AM)
Rewarding failure is a misleading concept. People using that phrase tend to assume that there is only one or two kinds of failure that should be rewarded or punished and those one or two kinds of failure, amazingly enough, never happen to be the types that this particular social darwinist fails miserably at. Gee, wow, now I wonder why that is? ;) We all fail. But at different things and at different times in our lives. Some of us fail at math. Some at English. Some of us are emotional retards with less perceptiveness than a slug. Some of us can't manage our money. Some us can't manage our tempers. Some of us flunk out of college. Some of us can't make a marriage or two or three or four work. We all want to be forgiven, helped, excused, understood when we fail. To deny that same help to others simply because they fail at different things than we do is inhumane, hypocritical in the extreme, childishly selfish, and it retards the growth or evolution of human social organisms (through the retardation of the social instincts of their members), which are, despite this hell we live in, becoming slowly more cohesive and conscious. It's a step away from culture, away from civilization, and back into primitive "every man/clan for himself" barbarism. Suicidal, in other words. But then when hasn't the human race been so?

cpK69 -> RE: failure (11/30/2008 11:33:58 AM)
Awesome post, E. p.s. About turning a bolt; left is loose, right is tight. Kim

MrQwerty -> RE: failure (11/30/2008 12:13:19 PM)
The way to remember best is that all bolts start out at a point in time unscrewed then as time moves forward so does the screw in a clockwise direction destined to become tight as was it's function in life. If however we feel the need to go back in time we can turn the screw in the opposite direction and cross the thread meaning the little bugger won't come out "Why you little &^$GH%!" said in best Homer Simpson voice.[8\|] If we don't reward failure then who will take the risks that need to be taken in life? Banks pay their workers to encourage a culture of risk taking because they know there is a fine line between huge success and total failure sometimes. To suggest someone that fails was nowhere near success is wrong. Sometimes it's all or nothing, do or die and to imply people that fail are worse than those that succeed is an over simplification of society. Besides if you give them the harsh serve maybe they will succeed in criminal activities instead out of desperation.

cpK69 -> RE: failure (11/30/2008 12:36:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrQwerty The way to remember best is that all bolts start out at a point in time unscrewed then as time moves forward so does the screw in a clockwise direction destined to become tight as was it's function in life. If however we feel the need to go back in time we can turn the screw in the opposite direction and cross the thread meaning the little bugger won't come out "Why you little &^$GH%!" said in best Homer Simpson voice.[8\|] So what you're saying is, cross threading stops time?[:D] quote: Besides if you give them the harsh serve maybe they will succeed in criminal activities instead out of desperation. I suspect, in a good number of cases, this is exactly what happens. Kim

Termyn8or -> RE: failure (11/30/2008 6:42:22 PM)
MrQ, from your post methinkst you might be a poker afficianado. True ? T

philosophy -> RE: failure (12/1/2008 12:22:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CaringandReal We all want to be forgiven, helped, excused, understood when we fail. To deny that same help to others simply because they fail at different things than we do is inhumane, hypocritical in the extreme, childishly selfish, and it retards the growth or evolution of human social organisms (through the retardation of the social instincts of their members), which are, despite this hell we live in, becoming slowly more cohesive and conscious. ......co-ooperation and competition. Two powerful elements in any society. i agree with pretty much all you wrote, but i'd be remiss if i didn't ask when competition, in your view, serves a useful function. Notwithstanding our nature as social animals, at what point should failure be allowed to run its course?

celticlord2112 -> RE: failure (12/1/2008 5:41:30 AM)
quote: Notwithstanding our nature as social animals, at what point should failure be allowed to run its course? Once we declare someone an adult and let him loose in the world. Training wheels are for toddlers.

TheHeretic -> RE: failure (12/1/2008 11:02:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy So how do we draw the line? Where's the balance point? Evolution only works when the failures die. All the recent bailouts have me so disgusted, I put that simple, undeniable truth in as my sigline a few days ago. We need to remember it. Some people need to write it on the blackboard 500 times, and recite it 1000 more before bed. Unless a person believes that this, the right now, is as good as our species can ever hope to be, it's best not to halt the process of change. Is the current model of business by the Big3 the highest development possible for an auto industry? Is a multi-generational welfare culture of entitlement a great leap forward in our social evolution? The line. The tipping point. The shortest answer I can come up with is when saving the failures starts killing off the promising newcomers. When the continued presence of the rescued starts destroying the opportunities of the struggling to thrive. When those who are able to grow, look around and say, "why bother?" When the needs of those who won't are treated as just as important as the needs of those who can't. It's not whether and when we try to address individual suffering, Phil, but how we go about it. Compassion is one of our species better traits. The auto industry wants $25 billion or all the poor, abused UAW guys will starve. How about we let the Big3 go to hell, and make $15 billion in low-interest loans to companies that want to come to the auction? Let Peterbilt take over the GMC light truck facilities, or Harley Davidson aquire Jeep. (They could turn a profit just by rebadging.) How about Tesla picking up Saturn? We need new ideas to move us forward, not deadweight to drag us to a halt.

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