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RE: Could not happen to nicer guys - 11/19/2008 11:37:57 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Merc I have no need to supply you with a different drum,for no matter the tune ,you manage to bring it back to this one salient point.Your favorite phrase,the root of all evil in America "rewarding failure"....it is your touchstone your theme song so to speak.You measure all of America's problems and backtrack them to this one theme and all can be blamed on some social program or another.Have at it merc,I for one find it amusing ....

FANTASTIC!

Yes indeed most if not ALL of America's problems are a result of rewarding failures. That process has generated a generation of people who see failure as an objective to receive their reward. Obviously you are on board and don't see a problem with that as I do.

So fear not - I'll continue to "entertain" and be equally amused at pointing out once again - you offer no other reasoning for the results we see today.

Since you frown on a Darwinist approach to the problem, have fun seeking a religious, or at minimum, faith based solution. However I am surprised. Do you really think, in lieu of letting economic evolution run its course that praying over the dying corpses while sprinkling them with the 'holly water' of tax money hand out rewards will resurrect them for another run? Your 'faith' in corporate governance of GM and the other failures is incredible! But who am I to challenge another's faith based belief. No wonder you consider me a 'heretic' to point out the fact based argument and pragmatic activity being conducted.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 21

RE: Could not happen to nicer guys - 11/19/2008 1:12:57 PM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

Wow merc,really went off the deep end with that one ,didn't you
My quote which you seem to be hanging this last post on dealt with your "particularly harsh model of Darwinism" was not meant to indicate I rejected Darwin's theory of evolution,his survival of the fittest theory when attached to an economic model in the manner you would apply it would lead to a great many in this country going thru some great economic convulsions....But that wouldn't stress you out just as long as we don't "reward failure".And still in all my complaint on this thread didn't actually begin as support for the bailouts as much as pointing out that there are indeed other issues to discuss.Something you seem to have lost track of.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 22

RE: Could not happen to nicer guys - 11/19/2008 2:08:30 PM

thornhappy

Posts: 8596
Joined: 12/16/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim

It wasn't that Obama let stupid people vote but, rather, it was that Obama and the mainstream-media kept smart people ignorant enough to vote for him. Note that on a nationwide basis, people within the group below (18 - 30 year-olds) voted for Obama over McCain by a 2:1 ratio -- a higher ratio than any other group except African-Americans.

From: http://www.howobamagotelected.com/

Zogby Poll

512 Obama Voters 11/13/08-11/15/08 MOE +/- 4.4 points
97.1% High School Graduate or higher, 55% College Graduates
Results to 12 simple Multiple Choice Questions
57.4% could NOT correctly say which party controls congress (50/50 shot just by guessing)
81.8% could NOT correctly say Joe Biden quit a previous campaign because of plagiarism (25% chance by guessing)
82.6% could NOT correctly say that Barack Obama won his first election by getting opponents kicked off the ballot (25% chance by guessing)
88.4% could NOT correctly say that Obama said his policies would likely bankrupt the coal industry and make energy rates skyrocket (25% chance by guessing)
56.1% could NOT correctly say Obama started his political career at the home of two former members of the Weather Underground (25% chance by guessing).
And yet.....
Only 13.7% failed to identify Sarah Palin as the person on which their party spent $150,000 in clothes
Only 6.2% failed to identify Palin as the one with a pregnant teenage daughter
And 86.9 % thought that Palin said that she could see Russia from her "house," even though that was Tina Fey who said that!!
Only 2.4% got at least 11 correct.
Only .5% got all of them correct. (And we "gave" one answer that was technically not Palin, but actually Tina Fey)

"Ignorance is bliss"

So where's the survey on McCain voters? Is there one on how many thought he was an Arab, or Muslim, or a terrorist? As for the "documentary", if you went to some of the areas where my parents live, you'd find similar stupidities.

thornhappy

(in reply to RacerJim)

Post #: 23

RE: Could not happen to nicer guys - 11/19/2008 2:14:52 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Wow merc,really went off the deep end with that one ,didn't you
My quote which you seem to be hanging this last post on dealt with your "particularly harsh model of Darwinism" was not meant to indicate I rejected Darwin's theory of evolution,his survival of the fittest theory when attached to an economic model in the manner you would apply it would lead to a great many in this country going thru some great economic convulsions....But that wouldn't stress you out just as long as we don't "reward failure".And still in all my complaint on this thread didn't actually begin as support for the bailouts as much as pointing out that there are indeed other issues to discuss.Something you seem to have lost track of.

I'll make it clear and easy. The "economic convulsions" that you reference are a direct result of the pattern of rewarding failure that has been in place since the 60's. Until now, we just kept taxing and spending money to continue them. Name one social engineering program that wasn't based upon rewarding failure. A easier task would be to name one such program that succeeded. That answer is none - easy to determine because none; not the 'war on poverty', 'war on illiteracy', or the 'was on drugs' was ever 'won' or succeeded because the bureaucracy put in place insured that failure continued because it insured their continuing existence. What would happen to all those bureaucrats now working on the 'no child left behind' program if no child was, including those who could go faster? They'd be out of a job? Their very existence insures another generation 'left behind'.

Until now - when there is no more money, and no more way to outrun the problem by putting more of the tax burden on successes.

Go ahead mike - since there are so many issues - name one not caused by the policy of rewarding failure?

What end of the pool do you prefer mike? Obviously you are uncomfortable in the deep end of the discussing because you can't provide any alternative reasoning for the results we are experiencing; so lets try the low end.

What major issue can't be shepherded back to a failure of policy or action? Which individual or corporate failure, by its merit, deserves extraordinary means of rescue to the detriment of those who, under the same conditions succeeded? Why should any who did and are succeeding be motivated to continue while seeing the fruits of their efforts spend on the loser/failures like GM?

Why wouldn't the same money be better spent, lending it someone else to start up a new version of GM or AIG. Why shouldn't a person who lived in an apartment or smaller house and saved, not benefit from those savings by the reduced housing market?

I have no idea what this means; " And still in all my complaint on this thread..." I didn't even notice a "complaint"; only rhetoric, denial, and a reference to not subscribing to a Darwin idea regarding economics. As stated, if you support and have faith in corporate welfare - good for you. However don't try to claim you have any idea how that will help the statue quo.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 24

RE: Could not happen to nicer guys - 11/19/2008 2:21:18 PM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

Or instead merc we could stay on point,and discuss the indictments as that is the thread you are currently beating this drum on.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 25

RE: Could not happen to nicer guys - 11/19/2008 3:00:42 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Or instead merc we could stay on point,and discuss the indictments as that is the thread you are currently beating this drum on.

Sure, I understand your reluctance to respond.

In that case - I stand behind the original post:

I'm happy to see this happening and I hope that it expands to the Federal level. I would like to see long drawn out Congressional hearings regarding the activities of the last 8 years of the Bush administration. With any luck the process will take a couple of years and require the dedicated effort of both houses of Congress.

My thought process is, as long as they are spending time and effort on these matters they aren't passing bills raising taxes and providing rewards to failures.

Have a GREAT day!

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 26

RE: Could not happen to nicer guys - 11/19/2008 3:02:13 PM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

Oh I will Merc,don't you worry your head about me..

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 27

RE: Could not happen to nicer guys - 11/19/2008 4:40:43 PM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Wow merc,really went off the deep end with that one ,didn't you
My quote which you seem to be hanging this last post on dealt with your "particularly harsh model of Darwinism" was not meant to indicate I rejected Darwin's theory of evolution,his survival of the fittest theory when attached to an economic model in the manner you would apply it would lead to a great many in this country going thru some great economic convulsions....But that wouldn't stress you out just as long as we don't "reward failure".And still in all my complaint on this thread didn't actually begin as support for the bailouts as much as pointing out that there are indeed other issues to discuss.Something you seem to have lost track of.

I'll make it clear and easy. The "economic convulsions" that you reference are a direct result of the pattern of rewarding failure that has been in place since the 60's. Until now, we just kept taxing and spending money to continue them. Name one social engineering program that wasn't based upon rewarding failure. A easier task would be to name one such program that succeeded. That answer is none - easy to determine because none; not the 'war on poverty', 'war on illiteracy', or the 'was on drugs' was ever 'won' or succeeded because the bureaucracy put in place insured that failure continued because it insured their continuing existence. What would happen to all those bureaucrats now working on the 'no child left behind' program if no child was, including those who could go faster? They'd be out of a job? Their very existence insures another generation 'left behind'.

Until now - when there is no more money, and no more way to outrun the problem by putting more of the tax burden on successes.

Do you really read the things you write and understand how condescending and lacking in empathy they are?

Or is it that your entire philosophy in life is "I got mine, fuck everyone else"?

What of the people who worked hard all their lives only to see an accident or illness destroy their livelihood and savings?

Are these people failures?

Are the Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid programs that help these people also failures?

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 28

RE: Could not happen to nicer guys - 11/19/2008 6:43:23 PM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline

I can name one : social security. So far it hasn't really met with disaster, despite all the chicanery going on with it. In it's original form you paid into it. Lower returns, but lower risk. The problem with even that scheme, no less a Pozi scheme is that now they just give it to almost anyone. Since I worked I get a statement from time to time telling me what I will get should I not work, continue to work, all that. It is based on a figure which is actually my account balance of sorts. No matter how it has weathered the environment, it has. Even though it is a Ponzi scheme, it mainly bet on the number of working people increasing over time. So there's one. There is one fly in the ointment though, I don't think the number of working people is increasing. Can't think of any more right now.

I can think of a recent example of rewarding failure though. A bank in PA recently used the money to buy National City which was in Cleveland. Take that bailout money and use it to buy out a competitor ? I really hope some shit hits the fan over that one. It's like begging in the streets to make your Mazerati payment.

T

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 29

RE: Could not happen to nicer guys - 11/20/2008 6:30:55 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

Do you really read the things you write and understand how condescending and lacking in empathy they are?

I don't consider holding up a mirror and reflecting reality "condescending" and nobody looking at that reflection and feeling bad should blame me. You know nothing about whether I feel empathy or not. It has nothing to do with pragmatic reality. My empathy is reflected by actions and not hollow rhetoric or words.

quote:

Or is it that your entire philosophy in life is "I got mine, fuck everyone else"?

I don't have "mine". I'm still working for it. Any "fuck everyone" isn't "else" but is anyone who believes they are entitled not to live out the results of their decisions which caused them to fail. Everyone else, having the same opportunity to make bad decisions but didn't, shouldn't be held responsible to pay for the mistakes for those who did and failed.

The only "philosophy" I champion is one of self accountability and self determination.

quote:

What of the people who worked hard all their lives only to see an accident or illness destroy their livelihood and savings?

Been there done that - have the "I was in NYC on 9/11" tee shirt. I lived and worked by that 'philosophy' starting 9/12; and didn't take a bottle of water as a handout.

quote:

Are these people failures?

Some are- some aren't.

quote:

Are the Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid programs that help these people also failures?

SS is "Help"? SS payments come from your own money. It will fail in its current form based upon any economic projection I've seen. Do you have any source that says the status quo can be maintained? If so, please provide the source and I'll be happy to have my mind changed. I don't think I will see any of mine coming back, and I'm confident my kids won't see any at all. Medicaid is for people who failed to plan ahead or make a determination of how they'd pay for insurance after they retired.

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 30

RE: Could not happen to nicer guys - 11/20/2008 7:34:38 AM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

I see. So someone who is in a car accident that leaves them permanently disabled and unable to work is a failure because they should have planned ahead for that possibility. Does that about sum up what you just said?

No, Social Security payments do not come from your own money. What you pay into the program does not ultimately decide what you will receive. When you get your Social Security statement in the mail it does not list how much you paid in and how much you can get back. It's not a savings account. You are entitled to a monthly payment that uses the amount you contributed as a benchmark but you can receive far more depending on when you become entitled to it and how long you receive it, or far less should you die prematurely.

As far as not being able to maintain the program, it is solvent by any measure until 2045. The arguments about its impending failure are mainly constructed by those who want to see its failure. If you have really done research into the program's economic projections you know there are many ways to fund the it well beyond even that date.

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 11/20/2008 7:39:56 AM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 31

RE: Could not happen to nicer guys - 11/20/2008 7:45:28 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

I see. So someone who is in a car accident that leaves them permanently disabled and unable to work is a failure because they should have planned ahead for that possibility. Does that about sum up what you just said?

Sure - obviously you agree with every other point. I can stipulate that my position does allow for the example you decided to apply it to. As sure as you should apply it to every other, such as GM, AIG, and all the people who fail to be able to pay mortgages on houses they shouldn't have purchased and can't afford.

quote:

No, Social Security payments do not come from your own money

They don't! Wow - I'm calling my accountant and telling him to stop paying into, whatever is being label SS on my paycheck and P&L at the Corporate and personal level.

quote:

As far as not being able to maintain the program, it is solvent by any measure until 2045.

Okay, your response is in line with my opinion. By "any measure" its a projected 2045 failure.

quote:

you know there are many ways to fund the program well beyond even that date.

Sure - you can always reward failure by changing the rules and charging taking assets from the successful to pay for it. Again, an example substantiating my position.

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 32

RE: Could not happen to nicer guys - 11/20/2008 8:47:08 AM

thishereboi

Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

I see. So someone who is in a car accident that leaves them permanently disabled and unable to work is a failure because they should have planned ahead for that possibility. Does that about sum up what you just said?

No, Social Security payments do not come from your own money. What you pay into the program does not ultimately decide what you will receive. When you get your Social Security statement in the mail it does not list how much you paid in and how much you can get back. It's not a savings account. You are entitled to a monthly payment that uses the amount you contributed as a benchmark but you can receive far more depending on when you become entitled to it and how long you receive it, or far less should you die prematurely.

As far as not being able to maintain the program, it is solvent by any measure until 2045. The arguments about its impending failure are mainly constructed by those who want to see its failure. If you have really done research into the program's economic projections you know there are many ways to fund the it well beyond even that date.

I have my SS statement sitting in front of me and yes it does tell me how much I have paid into it. It also tells me how much I will receive each month if I retire or am disabled. It also tells me how much my survivors will get if I die.

Am I counting on getting that money....uh, no.

_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert

This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 33

RE: Could not happen to nicer guys - 11/20/2008 9:00:54 AM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline

rulem, that's interesting that they think the Ponzi scheme is going to for for near another forty years, but it's the by any measure that is unsettling. Any measure could mean raising the deduction for current workers as well as reducing benfits to retirees.

You do recieve the benefits based on what you paid in, there is a balance, but I do see that I mplied something like an account, and that is not so. What they deduct from current workers is paid to current retirees. If you get benefits it is paid by future workers. It was never meant to be "held" for you personally. That's why it classifies as a Ponzi scheme.

Also it cannot be proven to be solvent until 2045, that is a projection. Of course they could start taking 33% in deductions and only paying $100 a month to retirees. That's about as solvent as us not being in a recession.

You need forty quarters of work to get it. From there the amount you recieve is calculated by not only your earnings but how long you worked - an account. Just not like a bank account.

In theory, those who die shortly after retirement basically fund those who become disabled before retirement. I said in theory.

I wonder how many of these CEOs who ran it into the ground will be losing their own retirement. I wonder how many of these congressmen who didn't do much else than to stuff their pockets with money will lose their retirement.

T

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 34

RE: Could not happen to nicer guys - 11/20/2008 9:17:07 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

wow, where to start

quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim

It wasn't that Obama let stupid people vote but, rather, it was that Obama and the mainstream-media kept smart people ignorant enough to vote for him. Note that on a nationwide basis, people within the group below (18 - 30 year-olds) voted for Obama over McCain by a 2:1 ratio -- a higher ratio than any other group except African-Americans.

so a group of people, whose beginning age is one of partying, self interest, and not much interest in politics or much else because they believe they are invincable, are the one's that were chosen to speak for me, a 43 year old women who has worked very hard all my life. (and no, not all in that age group would fall into that definition, just a great many) i work with the 18-25 year old age group, i wouldnt ask them their thoughts on buying a dog... though i may a cell phone... maybe

i have, from day one, disagreed with bailing out companies who have so miserably managed their companies, who whined to the government who has proven itself to be out for the Big guy only, and then once money was in hand, sent their high power men and women, who make enough damn money as it is, to spa's and resorts. most said... we didnt use bail out money. does it matter where the money came from? the company had it, they spent it unwisely!

two of the three big wigs from the car companies flew in to the congressional hearings on private jets! to beg for money?!?! let me cry them a river!! i dont think so. anyone else who went begging for money would have to prove need for said money. instead, its business as usualy for our government.

the gas issue has been crippling this country since katrina. amazingly as the old administration is about to leave, gas prices have gone down, and stayed down. anyone else have a theory on this??? i have one.. and its so not pretty.

we have poured money into other countries, money that could have been used at home. i dont see anyone else adressing these issues. just talking about rewarding failures. who is rewarding them? our lovely government, who has made billions themselves on the oil issues alone.

politically, i dont give a fig who sits in offices, as long as they do their job. the GWB administration has one some good things... and some truly awful, thoughtless, callous things. take a look around your communities. bet those lines at the charities are getting longer, and here it is approaching christmas. foreclosures on houses are lowering property vaules daily. gas has finally evened out at the pumps.. for regular gas... deisel is still at raging prices, so is your food prices as a result.

however, until our economy corrects.. in whatever manner it needs too.. we are pretty much stuck with what is happening. i believe we have been rewarding failures. the failures of CEO's across the country in running their companies as business men instead of greedy morons out to take and take and take. the failures of an administration to think beyond its own wallet to the needs of the people they were elected to govern... all the people... not just a few select friends.

ok,, thats my two cents worth, which in this day and age isnt worth the cost of making them.

tazzy

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 35

RE: Could not happen to nicer guys - 11/20/2008 9:23:40 AM

thishereboi

Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline

I have a question...they keep talking about bailing out the big 3. Last I heard Diamler owned Chrysler but they were in the process of selling it. So who owns it right now?

_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert

This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 36

RE: Could not happen to nicer guys - 11/20/2008 9:45:08 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

Chrysler was bought from Daimler Chrylser AG in 2007 by a private equity firm Cerberus Capital Management bought Chrysler for about $7.4 billion -- or about one-fifth of the $37 billion Daimler paid in 1998. In addition to its Chrysler brand, the company also controls the Dodge and Jeep brands.

http://www.wikinvest.com/wiki/Chrysler

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to thishereboi)

Post #: 37

RE: Could not happen to nicer guys - 11/20/2008 9:47:13 AM

thishereboi

Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline

Thanks

_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert

This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 38

RE: Could not happen to nicer guys - 11/21/2008 11:17:04 AM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

I see. So someone who is in a car accident that leaves them permanently disabled and unable to work is a failure because they should have planned ahead for that possibility. Does that about sum up what you just said?

No, Social Security payments do not come from your own money. What you pay into the program does not ultimately decide what you will receive. When you get your Social Security statement in the mail it does not list how much you paid in and how much you can get back. It's not a savings account. You are entitled to a monthly payment that uses the amount you contributed as a benchmark but you can receive far more depending on when you become entitled to it and how long you receive it, or far less should you die prematurely.

As far as not being able to maintain the program, it is solvent by any measure until 2045. The arguments about its impending failure are mainly constructed by those who want to see its failure. If you have really done research into the program's economic projections you know there are many ways to fund the it well beyond even that date.

I have my SS statement sitting in front of me and yes it does tell me how much I have paid into it. It also tells me how much I will receive each month if I retire or am disabled. It also tells me how much my survivors will get if I die.

Am I counting on getting that money....uh, no.

You're right. It does tell you how much you paid in. I never read it totally through before.

That doesn't alter the fact that how much you pay in has no bearing on how much you or your survivors will ultimately receive.

(in reply to thishereboi)

Post #: 39

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