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November 19, 1863 - 11/18/2008 7:54:12 PM   
FatDomDaddy


Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
Status: offline 		"Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that  all me are created equal.
 
Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation, so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.
 
But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate—we can not consecrate—we can not hallow—this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government  of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."
 
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RE: November 19, 1863 - 11/18/2008 7:57:43 PM   
bestbabync


Posts: 1061
Joined: 7/25/2007
Status: offline 		reading this made me sad..........

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"A woman is the only thing I am afraid of that I know will not hurt me" Abraham Lincoln
"Choose Life, your mother did!"
www.howobamagotelected.com
http://www.lp.org/platform
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2CaBR3z85c

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RE: November 19, 1863 - 11/18/2008 8:22:38 PM   
slvemike4u


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Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		I learned to recite that in grammar school,can still do it.I wonder if future school children will bother to commit to memory any speech of recent vintage,delivered by any of our lesser lights.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: November 19, 1863 - 11/18/2008 8:23:48 PM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		Seven score and five years ago a great Man uttered those great words. A Man, though flawed like any Man, but revered in history for his mettle, had a vision that was optimistic in hard times, and delivered this speech eloquently. He thought he had failed in his ability to do so because the response of the audience was minimal, not realizing at the time that they were in awe, considering his words.

T

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RE: November 19, 1863 - 11/18/2008 8:44:46 PM   
slvemike4u


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From: United States
Status: offline 		Actually Term the speech elicited no awe at the time.No stunned crowds ,no rave reviews in fact tepid would be the best that would be said about the speech at the time.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: November 19, 1863 - 11/18/2008 8:56:57 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		It's a shame and a loss that people no longer talk that way...Simple, eloquent, powerful and inspiring.

Butch

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RE: November 19, 1863 - 11/18/2008 9:08:58 PM   
slvemike4u


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From: United States
Status: offline 		Lincoln's greatness lies in the fact the times demanded it.The right man at the right time in the right place.After 9/11 we had Bush,now I don't mean to start an argument here,but contrast Lincoln rising to the challenge of his times with Bush squandering the goodwill engendered by the tragedy suffered by this  country on 9/11.Once giants walked this land....

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: November 19, 1863 - 11/18/2008 9:13:03 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Yes slvemike4u..you will...little men like to attack great ones...Just wait and see.

Butch

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RE: November 19, 1863 - 11/18/2008 9:19:41 PM   
slvemike4u


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Status: offline 		Not sure how to take that Butch.I got the "you will" part to mean I will have started an argument.The little men attacking great ones? Are you suggesting Lincoln haters are lurking about?I had presupposed the argument would come from Bush supporters...guess there aren't too many of those around though,so I suppose you're right...

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: November 19, 1863 - 11/18/2008 10:15:37 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
Status: offline 		        I know how I'm going to take it...

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: November 19, 1863 - 11/19/2008 3:18:12 AM   
corysub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Lincoln's greatness lies in the fact the times demanded it.The right man at the right time in the right place.After 9/11 we had Bush,now I don't mean to start an argument here,but contrast Lincoln rising to the challenge of his times with Bush squandering the goodwill engendered by the tragedy suffered by this  country on 9/11.Once giants walked this land....


I agree.  Now we have politicians who follow polls and use "focus groups" to give the public what it wants, instead of men with vision and principles. We have a tough road ahead in this country.
Lincoln stood alone with many enemies in his day during much of the Civil War. Historians that came later found the true greatness of the man.  Doris Kearns Goodwin, for example, continues the story of Lincoln in her new book.
http://www.doriskearnsgoodwin.com/

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RE: November 19, 1863 - 11/19/2008 3:35:35 AM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Lincoln's greatness lies in the fact the times demanded it.The right man at the right time in the right place.


Not sure I'd go along with that from what I've heard about his inauguration speech. Apparently Lincoln was not seen as a good choice by many, but they turned up for the inauguration and were converted on the strength of his vision and speaking to be supporters.

E

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RE: November 19, 1863 - 11/19/2008 4:35:19 AM   
SilverMark


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Status: offline 		For Lincoln the speech was almost an after thought. The man who spoke on the same day spoke for an hour or so and no one remembers his speech and even though I should remember his name I cannot. There is much to be said for simplicity.

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RE: November 19, 1863 - 11/19/2008 5:32:37 AM   
FatDomDaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Lincoln's greatness lies in the fact the times demanded it.The right man at the right time in the right place.After 9/11 we had Bush,now I don't mean to start an argument here,but contrast Lincoln rising to the challenge of his times with Bush squandering the goodwill engendered by the tragedy suffered by this  country on 9/11.Once giants walked this land....


This thread is really not about Bush mike...

But you must admit this, the United States homeland hasn't had a wiff of a terrorist attack since 9/11 and I am sure there are many that were stopped dead in their tracks by the amazing men and women who's names and deeds in that arena we will never know.

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RE: November 19, 1863 - 11/19/2008 5:44:23 AM   
FatDomDaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark

For Lincoln the speech was almost an after thought. The man who spoke on the same day spoke for an hour or so and no one remembers his speech and even though I should remember his name I cannot. There is much to be said for simplicity.


Edward Everett.

But not so much an afterthought.

There is a myth that he wrote it on the train to Gettysburg. It did in fact go through several drafts and Lincoln had meant to make a statement with it.

In fact, the Copperheads protested its message loud and clear as pure "propoganda" though of course, that word was not in use at the time.

There is also a myth that "under God" was added later by Edward Stanton, but all contemporary accounts sent by news reporters that day, clearly showed that that phrase was indeed spoken by Lincoln.

< Message edited by FatDomDaddy -- 11/19/2008 5:46:52 AM >

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RE: November 19, 1863 - 11/19/2008 6:39:01 AM   
slvemike4u


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From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Lincoln's greatness lies in the fact the times demanded it.The right man at the right time in the right place.


Not sure I'd go along with that from what I've heard about his inauguration speech. Apparently Lincoln was not seen as a good choice by many, but they turned up for the inauguration and were converted on the strength of his vision and speaking to be supporters.

E
LadyE,South Carolina had allready suceeded by the time he took the oath of office,he was pretty much smuggled thru Baltimore on his trip to Washington(Baltimore was a Southern City in the state of Maryland which came close to suceeding herself)so yes Lincoln's times did demand greatness from the moment he was elected.The Challenge to hold the Union together was immediate.His election,it goes without saying ,was contentious at best and many even after his election thought him the wrong man at the wrong place in such momentous times.
  There was an actual suggestion by Seward that Lincoln serve as a sort of figurehead while Seward himself would pull the strings.Lincoln's famed Cabinet of Rivals might actually have been a case of keeping ones enemies close rather than a homogenous collection of like-minded individuals.At times the cabinet contained members who wouldn't even talk to each other.most beleiving themselves to be more suited for the office Lincoln held.If ever in history a man rose to greatness to meet a crisis thrust upon them it is Lincoln.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: November 19, 1863 - 11/19/2008 6:42:22 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Lincoln's greatness lies in the fact the times demanded it.The right man at the right time in the right place.After 9/11 we had Bush,now I don't mean to start an argument here,but contrast Lincoln rising to the challenge of his times with Bush squandering the goodwill engendered by the tragedy suffered by this  country on 9/11.Once giants walked this land....


This thread is really not about Bush mike...

But you must admit this, the United States homeland hasn't had a wiff of a terrorist attack since 9/11 and I am sure there are many that were stopped dead in their tracks by the amazing men and women who's names and deeds in that arena we will never know.
Didn't want to make it about Bush FDD,hence the qualifier about not wanting to start an argument....but since you went there,absence of an event is not proof of sucess.No matter how you spin it,rather it is setting the bar real low,don't you think.You know what else didn't happen during Bush's term's...Bin Laden wasn't brought to justice!

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: November 19, 1863 - 11/19/2008 7:22:55 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		The argument about Lincoln and Bush reminds me of the quote by Shakespeare, Some men are born great some become great and some have greatness thrust upon them. Greatness is often a matter of luck and chance. Chance of being in the right place at the right time, luck that events go your way. Without Hitler, Churchill would have ended up being one of the most despied men in British politics and his career would have been a complete and utter failure. Successful politicians ride events, they rarely shape them, unless it is for the worse.  There is a tide in the affairs of men, Which taken at the flood, leads on to fortune. Omitted, all the voyage of their life is bound in shallows and in miseries. On such a full sea are we now afloat. And we must take the current when it serves, or lose our ventures.


< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/19/2008 7:23:28 AM >

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RE: November 19, 1863 - 11/19/2008 8:14:00 AM   
jlf1961


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Status: offline 		Being from the south, and having ancestors who fought on both sides during the war of Northern Aggression, I willingly admit that Lincoln was a great man, for many reasons.

Lincoln had to deal with many conflicts in his own mind, because he understood the argument for state's rights, which was the real reason for the civil war.  It was only after many substantial losses that he announced the Emancipation Proclamation which turned the civil war into a war to end slavery.

Initially, Lincoln supported the 'Immanent Domain' plan to end slavery, whereas slave owners were compensated for their loss, and then ending slavery (the same way slavery had been ended in the British Empire.)

Another misconception about the Gettysburg Address that is commonly held is that Lincoln was only speaking about the Union dead, his speech was paying honor to all the dead of the battle.

There is another quote that should be mentioned, but not one of Lincoln's, indeed, it is not one that is commonly known.

Upon the news of Lincoln's death:

"The world has lost a great man, one who held the power to rebuild this nation after such a terrible war.  It is my fear that his death will do more harm to the south and the Union as a whole than did the war."

Robert E. Lee.

Do not forget that Lincoln first offered the command of the entire Union army to Lee first.  Lincoln was a friend and admirer of Lee.  He admired his beliefs, his loyalty, his values.

Lincoln prayed that Lee would hold the loyalty to the United States above that of his own home state.

Lee admired Lincoln for his ability to compromise, to get two opposing sides to see a common good, and his simple down to earth values.

Lee did not immediately refuse the appointment, it was only after Virginia voted to leave the Union did he turn it down.

Lincoln saw in those first days what the cost of a war would be to the United States.  His great fear was that it would not be preventable.

Lincoln once said, "the cost of this war will be paid by future generations"

Yes, Lincoln was a great man, his vision, his philosophy, even his compassion was taken from this world all too soon, before he could finish the job he saw that needed to be done. 

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Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

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RE: November 19, 1863 - 11/19/2008 8:45:08 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		War of Northern Aggression?.....do they actually teach southern boys that in grammer school.Get over it ,it was the Civil War and the UNION prevailed.   Sheessh ,143 years after its end and some people still can't come to grips with it...

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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