RE: Deer Hunting With Jesus (Full Version)

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SilverMark -> RE: Deer Hunting With Jesus (11/13/2008 6:17:21 PM)

Lord andmaster's definition is the only one I have ever heard.




Kirata -> RE: Deer Hunting With Jesus (11/13/2008 6:31:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterS

You have alluded, on more than one occasion,to your hi-power suit job and how much money you make.  Are you saying that you would not associate with yourself? 
 
Yep. I generally try to avoid myself.

 
K.
 

 







HunterS -> RE: Deer Hunting With Jesus (11/13/2008 7:19:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterS

You have alluded, on more than one occasion,to your hi-power suit job and how much money you make.  Are you saying that you would not associate with yourself? 
 
Yep. I generally try to avoid myself.

 
K.
 


You really are as smart as I thought you were.
 
H.




tweedydaddy -> RE: Deer Hunting With Jesus (11/14/2008 12:10:05 AM)

The election is over, is this more US navel gazing or what?




HunterS -> RE: Deer Hunting With Jesus (11/14/2008 12:04:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark

Lord andmaster's definition is the only one I have ever heard.


I went googling and found a herd of them some dating back over 300 years...clearly predating the one I had been taught.
 
H.




DesFIP -> RE: Deer Hunting With Jesus (11/14/2008 1:05:10 PM)

I let people hunt my land. However I know damn well that the $1,000 they spent for that brand new rifle would have bought a lot of beef. Most hunters I know aren't asking me about young fat does, despite getting two doe permits. No, their first question is always about bucks and have I seen the 8 pointer someone else swore he saw on this road last week?

If it was about food, they wouldn't be waiting for a trophy to put on the wall.




LadyEllen -> RE: Deer Hunting With Jesus (11/14/2008 1:59:47 PM)

What I take from the OP is the clear message that our western economies need opportunities for all, which necessitates an urgent restructure of our socio-economic models to recognise that we're all very different; not everyone should be or can be in an office of whatever nature and not everyone should be or can be a BA or BSc. And also a restructure that enables everyone to realise their very different aspirations in life and which recognises equitable opportunity in fulfilling themselves and contributing to society according to their abilities not equal opportunity which all too often means the same opportunity regardless of self fulfilment, contribution or ability - and so leaves behind it an underclass who are found or who find themselves not equal.

E




Hippiekinkster -> RE: Deer Hunting With Jesus (11/14/2008 2:46:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

What I take from the OP is the clear message that our western economies need opportunities for all, which necessitates an urgent restructure of our socio-economic models to recognise that we're all very different; not everyone should be or can be in an office of whatever nature and not everyone should be or can be a BA or BSc. And also a restructure that enables everyone to realise their very different aspirations in life and which recognises equitable opportunity in fulfilling themselves and contributing to society according to their abilities not equal opportunity which all too often means the same opportunity regardless of self fulfilment, contribution or ability - and so leaves behind it an underclass who are found or who find themselves not equal.

E
Astute. It's a huge permanent underclass in the US. Let me quote another reviewer and see what you think:

"http://www.amazon.com/review/R2SRYUYP5P9W0F/ref=cm_cr_pr_mention_2

It's author does open with the observation that life is so hard among the white poor and working poor that they seek solace in beer, overeating, Jesus, and guns. This is, however, a very serious book, a first-hand deep look into the hearts and minds of the 60% of the country that cannot control its lifestyle, environment, pay check, or future.
Early on I note that the author appears to combine both education and common sense. There are magnificent turns of phrase throughout.
My fly-leaf notes:
+ Parallel world to that of the educated urban liberals
+ Life runs from complete insecurity to looming job insecurity
+ Just over half the poor in the US are white and this is the only group that is growing in number
+ For someone earning $8 an hour, if nothing goes wrong, they have $55 a week for groceries, gas, and incidentals
+ Insurance can cost as much as rent or mortgage
+ One third of working Americans make less than $9 an hour
+ They are inherently anti-union, facts are irrelevant, Christian radio is their primary source of information and viewpoint
+ This is a permanent underclass, two out of five have no high school diploma while all over 50 have major health issues, and low to no credit
+ The leftist middle class does not realize that this group votes right in part out of a feeling of revenge
+ Right owns the bars, the non-Internet real world
+ Left lost the middle when they demonized guns and gun owners--70 million gun owners, 200 million guns, guns are used to protect 60 times more often than they are used to attack
+ Superb multi-page discussion of whitetrashonomics and the trailer mortgage scams
+ Fundamentalists are superbly organized, home schooling leads to select colleges where political indoctrination is part of the deal
+ Sense of Rapture and Left Behind is very real within this group
+ Excellent discussion of how health "non-profits" are a real-estate valuation scam that serve only the well-off and not the poor
+ Television and petroleum have defined us
The author makes it a point to quote and point to a dirty dozen books that he drew on, but overall this is an essay from the heart with a great deal of intellect and a great deal of discipline in the presentation.
I highly recommend this book to both moderate Republicans wondering where their Party went off the rails, and to moderate leftists and to libertarians wondering how best to reconnect to what appears to be a very angry, down-trodden, unheard and unseen majority.
The most compelling insight for me from the author centered on his description of small towns across America, but especially in the South including Virginia, where a network of "elites" controlled the bank, newspaper, city hall, zoning board, and so on. As the author describes it, these fiefdoms and their masters are all too eager to cut deals with corporations and make money off the resulting land transactions, while not spending money on education, localized health care, or anything that might elevate the "local poor" to a point where they might understand the value of unions or tenant boards.
I experienced one major personal insight in reading this: the author takes great care to point out that most members of this group do not read, period. No books, no newspapers, barely use the Internet (except for NASCAR) and--this is the insight--have great disdain for those of us who have the "luxury" of sitting around and reading (not real work, that). This book and this author really communicated to me how little value my education and reading has in this context--what is needed is a long-term hands-on strategy for educating all the people all the time, and that is something neither the Democrats nor the Republicans appear willing to fight for, which is sad, since Thomas Jefferson said so clearly that a Nation's best defense is an educated citizenry."




HunterS -> RE: Deer Hunting With Jesus (11/14/2008 6:09:02 PM)

quote:

Thomas Jefferson said so clearly that a Nation's best defense is an educated citizenry."


So did Fidel Castro...OMG...that must mean that Jefferson was a commie[8|]
 
H.




LadyEllen -> RE: Deer Hunting With Jesus (11/15/2008 7:36:57 AM)

HK - I'm really not sure that education per se is the answer. It seems to me that it is in education - and an economic system reliant almost entirely upon it in order for one to participate, that we find two factors whereby the underclass comes into being and is maintained. Above the three Rs, there is a huge proportion of the population that cannot compete on educational ability and hence are turned off from the entirety, including the three Rs. In the top "elite" class of my high school, we ourselves often questioned the need to know how to solve simultaneous equations in real life - so how much more so, and how much earlier in the educational process, would this question be asked by others of supposed lesser ability?

From that position it becomes easy to see why the likes of me might be rejected, even if I were doing my best to help these people according to their own needs (rather than my perceived needs); after all, am I not one of those living in a parallel world? am I not a flag bearer for that exact system which apparently set out to indicate their stupidity next to its supposed inherent superiority? How can I then possibly have any anything to say that might be worthwhile listening to or employing? How can I possibly "get it"?

The thing is I suppose, we shouldnt be promoting a socio-economic model in which educational achievement is the sole determinating factor as to our claim to life. Education is important for some, but less relevant to others whose innate abilities lie in other directions which our current model refuses point blank to recognise as virtues or to develop, instead writing them and those who bear them off. We should not then be in anyway surprised if such people adopt a defensive, even antagonistic stance towards the rest of the population and seek solace in explanation of life which cater to that stance. It is in the claim that there is a right way and wrong way to be that all of this originates, and it is in the same expression that it culminates, with the elite striving to make their "inferiors" see the light and those disenfranchised striving to fulfill themselves their way against and in spite of such efforts at "enlightenment".

What we rather need to promote is a model in which all innate abilities are recognised and developed - and in which there are opportunities for all; we cannot possibly promote such a model where we export entire segments of the economy, taking with them the opportunities that many need. And more than merely economic, we also need to promote a social understanding that all contributions are vital to the whole - sure I may be an intellectual but I comprehend in very real terms the value of the guy or gal who fixes my car, carts my trash, keeps the lights on and cleans my street.

If we can get to a situation like that, where all are able to contribute and thereby fulfill themselves and be valued according to their abilities, and from that to the realisation that our populations are not equal in the terms that have been promoted for too long and which detract from such and so to understanding that validity is not determined by educational achievement as described, then perhaps we might overcome the defensive and antagonistic trench warfare that the current model has produced - and thereby encourage educational aspiration within the innate abilities of those who currently reject it and are thereby too often exploited. But these latter are not the sole population who need to make progress by this method - the remainder do too, because it would seem for all our intellectual nature we are too ready to condemn those who dont measure up to our educational level without showing the least intellectual enquiry into the how and why of such a reactionary way of life.

E




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