RE: Dancing in the Streets~! (Full Version)

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pahunkboy -> RE: Dancing in the Streets~! (11/14/2008 7:15:48 AM)

I am not against the big 3 bail out.  Tho I am not exactly for it either.

At least they make something useable.

We do need to put a lid on globalization.   That is where Merc and others may have misunderstood my thoughts.  Globalization is a direct correlation in the erasing of the nation state.   That is the problem.  Once we have a world military under that mode- who is there to fight????

The population governed by the world.  Thats who.  In a one world goverment, there would be no need for a military.  One would need police but that isnt military. (yet)

The fallacy is that if the US is the global master, then US citizens are protected.  Well if you want the protection that katrina meted out- knock yourself out.  The small players did way more to help those folks.  ANd is the state of the world really any diferent then a disaster?   no.

In case you dont know- we techically are still under a state of emergency.

dont be fooled by feel good talk.  now more then ever you must decipher all the code words the rulers do to us.

I used to say write congress often.  But that doesnt work.  I got another stray email about the fannie mae bail out for sen casey.  all a bunch of hog wash.

The US is being imploded- for the purpose of the globalists taking total control.

if that isnt true, then why do we need trillions in bail outs?   simple.  the powers that be are extracting anything they can before the final water covers are heads.

the mistake some think- is that this will blow over.  in effect we have a lost decade.

smash your tv set now. it is killing you.




cloudboy -> RE: Dancing in the Streets~! (11/14/2008 7:32:07 AM)


You are right about one thing, if an investor can spot the right opportunity, the ROI should be considerable. The other parallel between 79 and now is the the costs of war and rising oil prices.




Musicmystery -> RE: Dancing in the Streets~! (11/14/2008 7:35:18 AM)

I don't have a TV--haven't for five years now (my then husky puppy destroyed it), don't miss it, so that's not a issue.

Globalization, though (not defending it), is here to stay. It's been here for decades already.

Exxon Mobile, were it a country, would be the ninth largest economy in the world. That's a lot of influence.

We need global solutions. Right or wrong, that choice is just history.




cloudboy -> RE: Dancing in the Streets~! (11/14/2008 7:36:45 AM)

quote:

For a second I was considering a similar play now; but this isn't 1979, and the incoming President was elected on a mandate of 'economic redistribution' not one of rewarding investment


Obama's platform is a little more involved that tweaking the tax system, its more about a return to progressive, accountable, capable government. BUSH arguably wanted folks to have an ROI, but he never gave it to them because he lacked the other aforementioned items.

ROI also boomed under Clinton.




Mercnbeth -> RE: Dancing in the Streets~! (11/14/2008 9:24:26 AM)

Well, two page of posts, and still no 'dancing'. Yet 6 pages of debate on whether to revive the dead, or maybe the better comparison is the decision about how many resources do you allocate a terminal patient? The decision is pragmatic taken from the perspective of family, and just as pragmatic taken from the perspective of an insurance company or hospital. Perhaps that contributes to the positions stated by some.

Meanwhile, back to the OP.

What is clear, and the reason for the lack of 'dancing' is that while profitable and viable 'big business' project the persona of 'evil'. There is sympathy in death. However, the responses on the 'Save GM' are directed to point of this thread. A corporation is people. A viable corporation generates viable people. A dying corporation kills people. That said, GM should still be allowed to die.

It's replacement, whether a merged force of GM, Ford, and Chrysler or with a foreign parent, will create a new entity based upon current economic and marketing conditions. Sorry to my good friend 'Popeye'; you can't make cars in the US with $80/hour employees. That said, to your point, if profitability and production were possible with $100/hour employees - they should get it. Basically, the bottom line is - the bottom line. Maybe its not the perfect integration of socialism and capitalism, but the NFL model includes both corporate greed and sharing of the wealth with the employees. GM would still be viable today if its union contract included a similar salary/benefits 'cap' based upon production/income; a couple of union representatives on the Board of Directors would serve to protect their interests. But no use debating over a corpse.

Here's the thing, it doesn't matter how many zeros follow the one on the balance sheet when it comes to business. Whether GM or my company, opportunity for individuals, owners, executives, or employees derives from a viable business. You can't 'dance' now about GM no matter how much you hate the 'evil' corporations because now you see the employee collateral causalities.

Considering the GM model, my question to all the social engineers and income/wealth redistribution fans is simple. How do you reconcile accomplishing your goal without having a viable, income producing, corporate environment? How will taxing, or encumbering with bailing out failures, those currently viable entities be they individuals or facilitate individual growth? Is all your faith in the government? What makes them more trustworthy than any image you have of an 'evil corporation' or a 'rich bastard'? The one big difference between them - a government can print money to hand out; a corporation, or an individual has to generate it from investment, ideas, work, and results to earn it and distribute to employees.

GM, AIG, Lehman, Circuit City, Linens-n-Things, and the long list of Banks; lived a life and died because their decisions and policies generated that result; if they had the ability to print money they'd still be alive. The bail out is an attempt to print money - paid for with ink coming from the veins of viable donors. How much donation kills the donor? The ability to print money is all that's keeping the US alive at this point. I still believe it's not terminal for the US; however to cure that patient wealth, and income, needs to be created - not redistributed - not encumbered.




Musicmystery -> RE: Dancing in the Streets~! (11/14/2008 9:26:42 AM)

Exaggeration? Overstatement? You? Unsupported jumps? Naw............. Never!




Mercnbeth -> RE: Dancing in the Streets~! (11/14/2008 9:39:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Exaggeration? Overstatement? You? Unsupported jumps? Naw............. Never!

Your consistency in never addressing any of the points can't be exaggerated, and is supported by this reply. Were your contrary debate points so overwhelming that you didn't have the ability to compress them into an on point response?

Thanks for your, as always, 'valuable' input. I don't know about anyone else, but it sure made me reconsider my position.




Musicmystery -> RE: Dancing in the Streets~! (11/14/2008 9:41:25 AM)

What's the point in "debating" ridiculous claims?

Show me the evidence of $100/hr. wage jobs. I'll wait.






Mercnbeth -> RE: Dancing in the Streets~! (11/14/2008 10:38:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

What's the point in "debating" ridiculous claims?

Show me the evidence of $100/hr. wage jobs. I'll wait.

The evidence of $80/hour jobs is contained in the reference previously given that obviously, in putting together your detailed response, you neglected to read. Nor were you able to read the 'if' statement pertaining to the comment regarding $100/hr jobs.

Do that and then maybe we can discuss the relevance of claims, "ridiculous" or not. That is of course, if you're able to go beyond rhetoric and provide a counter point to the debate.




Musicmystery -> RE: Dancing in the Streets~! (11/14/2008 12:38:42 PM)

Still nothing but ridicule.

Who's hiring at $80/hour? $100/hr?

Hell, I'll apply! Even work overtime!




Mercnbeth -> RE: Dancing in the Streets~! (11/14/2008 1:14:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Still nothing but ridicule.

Who's hiring at $80/hour? $100/hr?

Hell, I'll apply! Even work overtime!

MM,
What ridicule - I'd like you to give an opposing view if you have it. If I'm ridiculing anything it's your reading ability.

The article sited on the first page identifies the cost per auto worker is about $80. Obviously they aren't hiring.The reference to $100 was to Popeye regarding any company's ability to pay $100 based the corporate profitability .

Now - care to comment on anything pertinent?  




Musicmystery -> RE: Dancing in the Streets~! (11/14/2008 1:17:59 PM)

Yup.

You have a rant based on ill-supported conjecture.

The average auto-worker makes around $30/hr. depending on what manufacturer.

The $70,000/yr. popeye notes is less than $34/hr.

So where are these $100/hr auto jobs?

quote:

go beyond rhetoric and provide a counter point to the debate


First you need to posit a supported point.




Mercnbeth -> RE: Dancing in the Streets~! (11/14/2008 1:41:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Yup.

You have a rant based on ill-supported conjecture.

The average auto-worker makes around $30/hr.


Where's the rant? It is a position based upon reality. Verified reality versus YOUR personal statement which conflicts to that reality . So, the article sited is wrong and you personally are right! Amazing! Wait come to think of it, it's not. If you had a contrary reference you'd be saying something more than you have been doing.

Let's see you as an "authority" or this source:
quote:

While in the past UAW settled for some benefit decreases while bargaining with the Big Three U.S. automakers, according to The Wall Street Journal in September of 2006, "on average, GM pays $81.18 an hour in wages and benefits to its U.S. hourly workers." Source: http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/ci_10957440 


Or this one:
quote:

For Detroit, this means release from ruinous wage deals with their astronomical benefits (the hourly cost of a Big Three worker: $73; of an American worker for Toyota: $48), massive pension obligations and unworkable work rules such as "job banks," a euphemism for paying vast numbers of employees not to work.
Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/11/14/ST2008111401338.html


Now this is one of my favorites from a Congressman who compares it to another group of workers:
quote:

``I've got a saw-mill worker in my district who's making $15 an hour,'' Representative Spencer Bachus, an Alabama Republican, said during a House committee hearing today, according to a transcript. ``And we're taking his money, and we're paying it to a company that's paying $75 an hour.''
Source: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a56T3z6x27yc&refer=home


Maybe a "World" view would help:
quote:

The average hourly compensation, including the value of all benefits, for a Big Three car worker is $73,20 — compared with $48 for a worker at a Toyota plant or $31,59 for other workers in manufacturing-related industries. This wage differential is not sustainable.
Source: http://www.businessday.co.za/articles/topstories.aspx?ID=BD4A884257


Go ahead MM - post a source to back up your position.

Or better to just give up on that, and give us your expert analysis and logic behind why my "rant" doesn't accurately reflect an economic reality. As you say I'm; Exaggeration? Overstatement? Unsupported jumps?" Hell, given that opportunity I'd relish the chance to prove the other side. It should be simple for you to make a simple, understated and, very critical, SUPPORTED, contrary statement. A piece of cake!

I want to be wrong or at least have another angle to consider. Can you do that or have we already seen the extent of your ability to discuss these issues?




came4U -> RE: Dancing in the Streets~! (11/14/2008 1:46:26 PM)

Factories (GM, Ford etc) are shutting down here at fast pace.  For those that have been laid off the government has a new program to get all/any workers back to the grindstone asap.

http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/tcu/secondcareer/index.html

"Second Career helps people get the training or education they need to get a good job. It provides financial help up to $28,000 to pay for tuition and things like:

  • Books
  • Living expenses
  • Help caring for dependents
  • Travel
  • Transportation
  • Disability supports
  • Other living and training costs

    Why can't the US governement do the same program?




  • Mercnbeth -> RE: Dancing in the Streets~! (11/14/2008 2:19:40 PM)

    ~ Fast Reply ~
     
    Well, its 2:00 PM on a Friday afternoon and this unapologetic capitalist is signing off from the office for the rest of the day. I'm going to head for my pool, overlooking the South Bay, put on some '70s/'80s music, grab an imported beer or two and enjoy the 85 degree temperatures at my home derived from the exploitation of my employees who have to stay in the office and continue to make me more.

    Have a GREAT Weekend everyone! And good luck on that research MM!




    MmeGigs -> RE: Dancing in the Streets~! (11/14/2008 2:30:32 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
    The evidence of $80/hour jobs is contained in the reference previously given that obviously, in putting together your detailed response, you neglected to read.


    That's not actually evidence, that's a figure in an editorial.  The number was $73.20, not $80.  That editorial didn't say where the figures came from.  It took me some digging to find it.  Very few of the articles and comments that use the figure include a cite, but I found one that led to a blog that led to another blog that had a link to this - http://chryslerlabortalks07.com/Economic_Data.rtf

    It's interesting to look at.  At the top of the document, it says the wages for assemblers is ~$28/hr.  I make about that much, so just for shits and giggles I figured out what the cost of me per hour is when put through the same formula.  It comes to right around $51/hr.  They've got better benefits than I do and I don't get paid overtime, and they've got shift differentials and some better paid skilled workers like electricians in the mix, which explains some of the gap.  The $73.21/hr figure included more than $20 per hour for health care.  Most of that is an estimated post-retirement cost - there's a little note about that - "*Includes incremental FAS 106 beginning with 1993."  A deluxe family health care plan doesn't cost more than about $15k/yr (or about $8/hr) for a full-time worker.  My health care plan is really good and costs my employer and me about $6/hr, not including my out-of-pocket expenses.  My guess is that about 2/3 of what they put in their formula for health care is for future spending.  Take that out, and the $73 is now about $60.  $12 more per hour than the estimated costs for Toyota.  With there being about 20-24 hours of direct labor in a car, that's about $250-$300 more labor expense - about 1% of the price of a new car.  That's not all that significant.  I'd spend that much more to buy a US manufactured car.  Actually, even if we accept the $73 figure, the cost difference is only about 2% of the price of a new car. 

    The figures for the average labor costs for Honda, Nissan and Toyota were Daimler-Chrysler estimates.  They don't provide any detail about how they came up with those figures.  I'd like to know what the hourly wage is for those folks, and how much of the figures given are health care and "all other elements".  I'd like to see that $73/hr figure updated to reflect the changes in the contracts that the auto industry has recently signed with labor.  There have been some really significant changes in contracts in the last year. 

    So anyhoo - the $73.20/hr figure is at best misleading.  It was a pretty puffed-up figure to begin with, and doesn't reflect recent changes in the contractual obligations of auto makers.





    GoddessDustyGold -> RE: Dancing in the Streets~! (11/14/2008 2:41:36 PM)

    Have a helluva fabulous weekend Merc !  andbeth!  [sm=givemebeer.gif]




    Musicmystery -> RE: Dancing in the Streets~! (11/14/2008 3:55:01 PM)

    A lot of auto workers are gonna call their lawyers Monday, wondering where the other 2/3 of their hourly wages went!




    tweedydaddy -> RE: Dancing in the Streets~! (11/14/2008 4:07:22 PM)

    When a ship goes down, no one celebrates.
    I saw the iceberg a long time ago, but there was no pleasure in watching the ship hit it.
    Banks don't have lifebelts.
    If the ship does go down it'll make the thirties depression look like a tea party.
    We are inches away




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