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Paying the Tab - 10/19/2008 3:13:16 PM

juliaoceania

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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Recently we have heard all sorts of talk about tax increases, bailouts, etc.... We have ongoing wars with no end in site.... we are borrowing heavily just to stay afloat.

I did not approve of the bailout. I have a good friend who is heavily invested in AIG, and she stood to lose over 35k because of the problems with this company. I told her that I really resented bailing out these companies. She kinda got panicky on the phone and told me we HAD to bail these companies out or so many would lose their retirements... so basically we are mortgaging our future to pay for hers. I am sorry that so many people stand to lose so much, but our kids are the real losers in all this. It is they who have to pay for it.

I hear so many that do not want any sort of tax increase, well who pays for this cluster fuck we find ourselves in? Can we continue to run up the tab that our kids will pay, do people even care?

I have never been one to get much credit. In fact I never took out a loan of any type until I was 30. I buy things as I can afford them. If I do not have cash, then I cannot afford it. What we have is a society and a culture that thinks it is ok to borrow until bankrupt, pay the tab later. I am not talking about those with home loans, most people want to live in their own home, and should be able to afford that home if they work. I am speaking of the credit card debt, buying a new car every year or every other year. I am speaking of those who run up their debts for things that do not last, like dinner out, for example. We have become a "have it now" culture.... no matter if we cannot afford it... no matter that our kids will pay the tab with their future.

It is accumulated debt I am speaking of. Federal, state, county, city debt... and then there is personal debt... how do we ever pay the tab? Will be ever pay the tab?

So my question is this, for those completely against taxes, who pays for the wars? Who pays for the bailouts?

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 10/19/2008 3:15:30 PM >

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Post #: 1

RE: Paying the Tab - 10/19/2008 3:20:13 PM

KatyLied

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From: Pennsylvania
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At the present time, with the ecnonomy and stockmarket, most of us are losing our asses as far as our retirements go. So I don't feel too badly for your friend because I'm worried about my own investments.

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Post #: 2

RE: Paying the Tab - 10/19/2008 3:24:11 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

At the present time, with the ecnonomy and stockmarket, most of us are losing our asses as far as our retirements go. So I don't feel too badly for your friend because I'm worried about my own investments.

I do not have any investments because making it as a single mom without any help and working my way through college ate up "investment" money. Perhaps that is why I have this attitude, because I am thinking about the kind of future my son can build because people of this generation have been so damn greedy and immature, having to have everything now. People not wanting to pay their share of the tax burden. People supporting wars even though we could not afford them and then taking economic stimulus checks... happy to spend that money, and it was borrowed from China.

I just wonder if I am alone in thinking that this generation should pay for their own mess and suck it up so our kids don't have to do it.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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Post #: 3

RE: Paying the Tab - 10/19/2008 3:25:48 PM

seeksfemslave

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Your friend is correct. Pension funds would be at major risk if the banking system collapsed leading to a major stock market failure. Saving for a pension is one of the most responsible things that anyone can do. Contributions must be protected whatever it takes.

Also the banking system provides the lifeblood for an advanced economy. ie the creation of money or purchasing power. I have heard the figure of 70% of US GDP is consumer spending.

What must be done is to introduce controls so that the spivs on Wall Street and in the city of London cannot run riot and potentially bring economies to their knees.
If in the US that requires a little bit of socialism then ....do it.

Exactly how it can be done I do not know because I do not understand how the whole financial system works.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 10/19/2008 3:28:36 PM >

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Post #: 4

RE: Paying the Tab - 10/19/2008 4:04:45 PM

KatyLied

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Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
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I don't personally feel a lot of responsbility for any mess. I've worked since I was 16 years old. For the past two years I've worked 2 jobs. I work hard for what I have. I'm lucky too, in that as a single parent my parents helped me get a home. But I will probably be working for the rest of my life. I don't feel greedy and immature.

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Post #: 5

RE: Paying the Tab - 10/19/2008 4:18:08 PM

DedicatedDom40

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Joined: 9/22/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Your friend is correct. Pension funds would be at major risk if the banking system collapsed leading to a major stock market failure. Saving for a pension is one of the most responsible things that anyone can do. Contributions must be protected whatever it takes.

Then you keep your retirement money out of high risk situations. But no, we dont have to "do whatever it takes" simply because you (and others) want to travel the high risk, high reward route with their retirement.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)

Post #: 6

RE: Paying the Tab - 10/19/2008 4:20:19 PM

juliaoceania

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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I did not mean to infer that you were greedy or immature...

What I do think is that our grandparents had a different savings ethic (depression era). Most people do not save anymore. And "retirement" in the form of investing in the stock market is a gamble... having read up on investing in a 401k they describe risk, etc. Even though some of the investments have less risk, they all have some risk.

I suppose I just feel that the stock market is risky... especially the last decade.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 7

RE: Paying the Tab - 10/19/2008 4:22:06 PM

SL4V3M4YB3

Posts: 3506
Joined: 12/20/2007
From: S.E. London U.K.
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quote:

What must be done is to introduce controls so that the spivs on Wall Street and in the city of London cannot run riot and potentially bring economies to their knees.

Short selling is part of the game and didn't have anything to do with the banking crisis. The banking crisis was caused by the subprime market in the US and all those banks having to write off losses they incurred irresponsibly handing out risky mortgages to people. The two major institutions affected in the US buy mortgage risk indirectly through other banks so the debt stops with them because they can't sell on the debt and don't have any influence on the home owners as they have no direct relationship with them. The problem is addressing to what extent debt can be sold on, it has nothing to do with the markets. People can move the debt around and it makes it unclear how much debt there actually is until the debt all ends up in one place and an institution collapses.

When an institution collapses it makes all the other banks paranoid about lending to one another because they are unaware what exposure those other banks have. You see there is more paper money in circulation than actual assets that relate to that paper money.

HBOS share price was brought down by short selling but there is a difference between what a bank is worth on the market and the assets that bank has. The stock market is 100% estimation and a stable financial institution could be worth almost nothing according to traders who only go by rumour and speculation. Have you ever seen a trader take time to stop and read an audit report? If traders want to undervalue things that is their risk. If they want to influence the markets by spreading false rumours that is another thing altogether and they could end up in prison.

< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 10/19/2008 4:34:32 PM >

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Post #: 8

RE: Paying the Tab - 10/19/2008 4:23:11 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

Then you keep your retirement money out of high risk situations. But no, we dont have to "do whatever it takes" simply because you (and others) want to travel the high risk, high reward route with their retirement.

I agree... whatever it takes means fucking our kids... I'd rather have to work the rest of my life (which I will anyways) then leave the next generation with no future. I would rather pay higher taxes then have my child's future mortgaged.

Someone has to pay for this... if not us, then who?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to DedicatedDom40)

Post #: 9

RE: Paying the Tab - 10/19/2008 4:33:50 PM

KatyLied

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Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
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quote:

I did not mean to infer that you were greedy or immature...

Oh, no, I didn't think you were, I know it was a general comment.

It's just that I feel almost super-adult at times, like the world is too big for me and a big issue I have, in general, is about my future, and how it will unfold, and how I will find the energy to maintain this sort of pace for the next 20 years.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 10

RE: Paying the Tab - 10/19/2008 4:35:55 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

I did not mean to infer that you were greedy or immature...

Oh, no, I didn't think you were, I know it was a general comment.

It's just that I feel almost super-adult at times, like the world is too big for me and a big issue I have, in general, is about my future, and how it will unfold, and how I will find the energy to maintain this sort of pace for the next 20 years.

Perhaps you can find something with a different pace that suits you better and is more lucrative?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 11

RE: Paying the Tab - 10/19/2008 5:08:05 PM

TNstepsout

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Joined: 8/3/2005
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Your friends pension plan was not the only thing at risk, and unfortunately your children WILL pay for the mess one way or another. By bailing out AIG and other institutions, the government has attempted to soften the blow and shorten the recovery time. Had AIG and others been allowed to fail, we would have absolute chaos in all areas of business, finance, and industry and we would have seen the complete, world wide collapse of the banking industry. Just look up some pictures of soup lines in the 30's if you want to imagine what it would have been like.

So maybe your kids will pay for the sins of their parents by paying higher taxes, or perhaps you will pay higher taxes and as a result they will get less, but it's probably better than the alternative, which might be living in your car driving from town to town looking for work.

I agree that there was an incredible amount of irresponsibility. From the people who took out mortgages they could not afford, to the people who gave them the loans, to the people who bought those loans, to the people who combined them with other loans and claimed they were rock solid investments! We are paying a very high price for deregulation.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 12

RE: Paying the Tab - 10/19/2008 5:27:17 PM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
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I dont see HOW the debt can be paid.

lets say that everything on earth is worth $1000.00. The amount owed on it, had been $10,000.00, but due to a change in the law in 2003ish, the amount went to $33,000.00.    This is not factoring in that the cycle keeps going.

So- if an alien from Mars bought the planet, the cost $33,000.00 even tho the value is only $1,000.00. So who would over pay?

No one will pay for it. Everyone will try to escape payment.

There-in lies the problem.

The monetary system has run its course. Look how other countries were in on the ponzi sceem.

So- the only rational thing now- would be to change the terms of the contract. All of the contract. And quid pro quo- not one side.

But that is not happening per our leaders.

So we are on the eve- of a great unknown to our age group.

The barter era is on its way in- ready or not.   Just in time anything- wont be.

No one will pay this debt. over 10 trillion.   No ONE. The talk of grandkids paying it is dumb- THEY ARE NOT GOING TO PAY FOR IT.

(in reply to TNstepsout)

Post #: 13

RE: Paying the Tab - 10/19/2008 5:29:39 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

Hi Julia, nice to see you back.
I wish our govt. handled *our money* like you manage yours!

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Post #: 14

RE: Paying the Tab - 10/19/2008 5:32:47 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TNstepsout

Your friends pension plan was not the only thing at risk, and unfortunately your children WILL pay for the mess one way or another. By bailing out AIG and other institutions, the government has attempted to soften the blow and shorten the recovery time. Had AIG and others been allowed to fail, we would have absolute chaos in all areas of business, finance, and industry and we would have seen the complete, world wide collapse of the banking industry. Just look up some pictures of soup lines in the 30's if you want to imagine what it would have been like.

So maybe your kids will pay for the sins of their parents by paying higher taxes, or perhaps you will pay higher taxes and as a result they will get less, but it's probably better than the alternative, which might be living in your car driving from town to town looking for work.

I agree that there was an incredible amount of irresponsibility. From the people who took out mortgages they could not afford, to the people who gave them the loans, to the people who bought those loans, to the people who combined them with other loans and claimed they were rock solid investments! We are paying a very high price for deregulation.

All this has been a stop gap for what is happening for several reasons... we consume more than we produce. We do not possess the energy resources to sustain economic growth, without a lot growth you have "recession". Capitalist markets must grow or they die.... We are going to see more storms, soon there will be more ocean rising as the polar ice caps melt. We have global warming, lack of fuel, and we consume consume consume like there is no end. All of this is is a recipe for disaster.

People forget the dust bowl, which was another injury to the nation economically back in an era in which America was largely agricultural and rural. We are dealing with vastly different parameters... so we might never see soup lines even though most of us are becoming poorer and poorer.

The alternative to bailing out the banks was investing in our people... let's hope Obama has the nerve to invest in infrastructure, medical care for all, and education... or we will end up with a much harder crash than we would otherwise. Joblessness is probably going to go up as the access to capital goes down... We could employ people making our country back into the brain trust it was during the space race... a place where people use their imaginations again.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to TNstepsout)

Post #: 15

RE: Paying the Tab - 10/19/2008 5:48:54 PM

MzMia

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.......doing a happy dance....

julia started a thread!

Great topic, julia!
All the zillions of tax money that has been spent to keep us fighting in Iraq,
until the end of time, is rarely discussed.

We are all going to have to pay for the "bail out" and the tab is indeed growing,
exponentially.
America eventually will have to start paying the tab, and it won't be pretty.
Actually, I do think many of us are very concerned about paying the tab.
I just think very few will like the changes in their lifestyles, sacrifices, and
measures needed to really pay the tab.

< Message edited by MzMia -- 10/19/2008 6:00:55 PM >

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Post #: 16

RE: Paying the Tab - 10/19/2008 6:14:50 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

.......doing a happy dance....julia started a thread!

Great topic, julia!
All the zillions of tax money that has been spent to keep us fighting in Iraq,
until the end of time, is rarely discussed.

We are all going to have to pay for the "bail out" and the tab is indeed growing,
exponentially.
America eventually will have to start paying the tab, and it won't be pretty.
Actually, I do think many of us are very concerned about paying the tab.
I just think very few will like the changes in their lifestyles, sacrifices, and
measures needed to really pay the tab.

I very much agree. For me it will not hurt so much because frankly I am used to living within my means... for those who are unaccustomed, it is going to hurt. Imagine... people having to do their own yard work, housework, and raise their own kids because they cannot afford daycare?

Imagine a world in which ziplock baggies are not used anymore and convenience food is passed by for homemade food?

And it is going to hurt.

But not granola eating, hippie liberals like me... already do the things that other people are just starting to do.. like take the bus.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to MzMia)

Post #: 17

RE: Paying the Tab - 10/19/2008 6:24:04 PM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline

a component of it will be mass psychology. If everyone says we are doomed- then we are. If we are optimistic- and set out to fix it- then we have a better chance.

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Post #: 18

RE: Paying the Tab - 10/19/2008 6:29:03 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

a component of it will be mass psychology. If everyone says we are doomed- then we are. If we are optimistic- and set out to fix it- then we have a better chance.

You are scaring me with your George Bush talk...lol

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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Post #: 19

RE: Paying the Tab - 10/19/2008 6:34:24 PM

DedicatedDom40

Posts: 350
Joined: 9/22/2005
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"Everything's amazing, nobody's happy"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbIGbZ6gq_Y

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Post #: 20

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