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Piracy - 10/16/2008 11:17:56 PM

slaveboyforyou

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081016/ap_on_re_af/af_somalia_fighting_pirates

I've been reading these stories about piracy off the Somalian coast for years now. Hell, this a problem off the coasts of many countries. I have never been a merchant mariner, but I wonder why we don't internationally allow these ships to arm themselves for such attacks. It just seems like a simpler solution than sending warships off the coasts of any country. Allow international shipping companies to have armed, onboard security and erase this problem.

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RE: Piracy - 10/16/2008 11:20:39 PM

scifi1133

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There are companies out there that are working on putting security on board these vessels. The biggest hurtle up till now has been the companies playing the lottery with the costs so to speak. 2.8 million dollars is not alot when a ship is taken but it seems alot when the ship hasn't been hit.
One of the companies working on this that I know of is
Oasissecuritygroup.com

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RE: Piracy - 10/16/2008 11:35:15 PM

slaveboyforyou

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quote:

There are companies out there that are working on putting security on board these vessels. The biggest hurtle up till now has been the companies playing the lottery with the costs so to speak. 2.8 million dollars is not alot when a ship is taken but it seems alot when the ship hasn't been hit.
One of the companies working on this that I know of is
Oasissecuritygroup.com

Scifi, I am admitting complete ignorance on this subject. I don't know anything about maritime law. Is it legal for merchant mariners to have arms onboard? I have looked up a few things about merchant shipping, but I profess my ignorace. Are they allowed to have weapons on board? Even without a security team, it seems like they could curtail a lot of this with just allowing ships to port internationally with small arms.

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RE: Piracy - 10/17/2008 2:34:10 AM

corysub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

There are companies out there that are working on putting security on board these vessels. The biggest hurtle up till now has been the companies playing the lottery with the costs so to speak. 2.8 million dollars is not alot when a ship is taken but it seems alot when the ship hasn't been hit.
One of the companies working on this that I know of is
Oasissecuritygroup.com

Scifi, I am admitting complete ignorance on this subject. I don't know anything about maritime law. Is it legal for merchant mariners to have arms onboard? I have looked up a few things about merchant shipping, but I profess my ignorace. Are they allowed to have weapons on board? Even without a security team, it seems like they could curtail a lot of this with just allowing ships to port internationally with small arms.

Seems to me international piracy is the perfect issue for the United Nations to take on and resolve. They have commitee's on just about every subject facing mankind. Why doesn't the UN fund fitting out a merchant ship with not small arms, but the kind of weapons that would be on a small frigate and have it sail around in known pirate risk zones. Could be sent to sea with all the same papers as a merchant underway so as not to arouse any suspicions and the name and profie could be changed often to confuse the pirates. Could work as well in the Carribean touristy sailing areas where private boats have been hijacked and people killed.
Seems to me that the UN should be able to handle a problem against a handful of criminals. Lord knows, they need a success at something.

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RE: Piracy - 10/17/2008 2:44:38 AM

scifi1133

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The biggest problem with that is that a ship can only be in so many places at once. And if it 50 miles away from the ship be boarded then its over by the time they get there. There really is no way for the UN to do something like this effectively.
As for international law it is legal to defend yourself and your property. The problem with using the crew for this is that most of them have no experience with weapons and would probably do more harm than good, and in the process get themselves hurt or even have the pirates kill them once the ship was taken over.
The pirates are more concerned with the money they get from the shipping comanies for ransom than they are in the cargo in most cases. This money is used in quite a few cases to fund terrorists or to buy weapons for the local warlords. having security teams on the ships would be a good deterrrent to such attcks. Most of the pirate cells have people that work for them on the docks, so they would know right from the start that there was a team onboard and would probably try to take another ship instead. As for porting with small arms onboard it is legal as long as the team does not leave the boat. You are covered under the countries flag that ship is flying.

< Message edited by scifi1133 -- 10/17/2008 2:46:08 AM >

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RE: Piracy - 10/17/2008 3:06:15 AM

slaveboyforyou

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quote:

As for porting with small arms onboard it is legal as long as the team does not leave the boat. You are covered under the countries flag that ship is flying.

OK Scifi, that's what I wanted to know. It does not take that long to teach people to use small arms. Hell, I learned how to fire a rifle when I was 9. I took basic ROTC courses in high school and college. Anyone can be trained to operate a gun. Merchant shipmen can be taught how to fire weapons. It's better than becoming hostages.

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RE: Piracy - 10/17/2008 3:27:32 AM

LadyEllen

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Its one thing to learn to shoot a rifle - its quite another to shoot that rifle at a living person. And another thing still, if that person starts shooting back.

E

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RE: Piracy - 10/17/2008 3:38:42 AM

slaveboyforyou

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quote:

Its one thing to learn to shoot a rifle - its quite another to shoot that rifle at a living person. And another thing still, if that person starts shooting back.

Okay Lady Ellen. You're on a ship. It's being overun by thugs. Would you rather have a gun or not?

I have never shot a person *knock on wood*. I don't ever wish too. But I will choose being armed against being not armed when faced with foes.

< Message edited by slaveboyforyou -- 10/17/2008 3:44:36 AM >

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RE: Piracy - 10/17/2008 3:50:54 AM

LadyEllen

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The difference is, I am more than prepared to shoot someone dead, and dont care particularly about surviving.

As for the rest of the crew, they might not feel the same on either count, particularly the latter one.

E

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RE: Piracy - 10/17/2008 4:00:25 AM

slaveboyforyou

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quote:

The difference is, I am more than prepared to shoot someone dead, and dont care particularly about surviving.

As for the rest of the crew, they might not feel the same on either count, particularly the latter one.

No, the difference is that I have the ability to do that. You do not. If I live out in the middle of nowhere (which I do), I like having the ability to defend myself from bandits. The cops will not get to my house in time. No matter....I will protect myself. People on ships should have the same ability.

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RE: Piracy - 10/17/2008 4:09:54 AM

rexrgisformidoni

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I want to be a pirate. Like Blackbeard, be the terror of the seas and unspeakable atrocities. (song lyric relax)
But being a pirate would be kinda cool.

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RE: Piracy - 10/17/2008 4:32:24 AM

LadyEllen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

The difference is, I am more than prepared to shoot someone dead, and dont care particularly about surviving.

As for the rest of the crew, they might not feel the same on either count, particularly the latter one.

No, the difference is that I have the ability to do that. You do not. If I live out in the middle of nowhere (which I do), I like having the ability to defend myself from bandits. The cops will not get to my house in time. No matter....I will protect myself. People on ships should have the same ability.

Quite what the respective firearms regulation of the US and UK have to do with this I'm not sure, if that was the allusion you were making.

There is a huge difference as I said, between having a gun, using a gun, killing with a gun and killing with a gun whilst under fire oneself - and that applies wherever one might be. This isnt the movies; being under fire is no casual situation.

Arming these vessels, in the absence of personnel ready, able and willing to defend them to the death, merely hands weaponry to the pirates on the capture of the ship.

E

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RE: Piracy - 10/17/2008 4:42:08 AM

Aileen1968

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Mmmmm. Pirates are hot. Just not these pirates.
Where's a good, sexy pirate when a lass needs one?

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RE: Piracy - 10/17/2008 4:49:16 AM

JustDarkness

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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4867351.ece

Europe to send warships to defeat Somali pirates

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RE: Piracy - 10/17/2008 4:58:27 AM

LadyEllen

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What might work out (might) would be to do what we did to combat German submarines in WWI - that is, adapt ships to carry concealed gun batteries. From a distance, even from up close, there is nothing to see. When the enemy comes in sight, the walls of the forecabin suddenly fold down to reveal a gun.

This could be adapted to modern vessels in the form of said gun being in what appears to be a 40' container. Again, the walls on all four sides drop, enabling the gun to be used.

Again though, this would require trained personnel to operate. The advantage over small arms is that the enemy can here be taken out at a distance - close combat with small arms on a ship raises the problems already mentioned - and taken out very effectively indeed. So effectively that pirates - who in the end value their lives and prefer soft targets - would likely be deterred at the very sight of the gun.

And of course, if the gun were replaced with high calibre machine guns, so much the better.

E

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RE: Piracy - 10/17/2008 5:04:36 AM

JustDarkness

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Also read (5 min ago) that India is sending warships to protect their freighters.
At least soemthing is happening now.

gun batteries won't be able to hit small speedboats propably....better is to take out the hiddign spots/harbours.
oh well...not an expert...but I am pretty sure..the pirates will think twice now..with all those warships around.

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RE: Piracy - 10/17/2008 5:13:20 AM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub
Seems to me international piracy is the perfect issue for the United Nations to take on and resolve. They have commitee's on just about every subject facing mankind.

Bad luck for you: the United Nations have a division for ocean affairs and the law of the sea that has been looking at the problem of maritime safety very closely. But I suppose it's easier to badmouth the United Nations and imply they don't look into things: so much more popular around your shores

.

Oh, just for you:
http://www.un.org/Depts/los/index.htm

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 10/17/2008 6:08:25 AM >

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RE: Piracy - 10/17/2008 5:44:12 AM

Dnomyar

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50 cal machine guns would work great against small craft. Even a BAR would make short work of one. Both have a 1000 yard range. Some of these new automatic guns can spit out 100's of rounds a min. Start off teaching someone to shoot with a pellet gun and work up from there.

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Post #: 18

RE: Piracy - 10/17/2008 6:03:59 AM

kittinSol

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The problem with individual guns is that if one person has a gun, everybody else needs a gun - see: the dire gun situation in US mainland - especially in the middle of the ocean.

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RE: Piracy - 10/17/2008 7:19:21 AM

rexrgisformidoni

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Modern Pirates are dirtbags. I'd be a suave, smooth pirate, probably wear a tux or something. Oh and a surplus russian submarine, can't really do anything about torpedo threats.

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when all you have is a hammer, everything begins to look like nails

“I am the punishment of God...If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you.”

Genghis Khan

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