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climate change in a recession? - 10/15/2008 2:18:03 PM

LadyEllen

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So, the EU apparently remains intent on reducing carbon emissions through the coming recession.

Of course, a recession will mean a reduction in industrial emissions anyway, but the idea seems to be to continue with increasing restrictions on emissions that mean what industry remains will be burdened with enormous extra costs, rendering it less and less competitive in a global economy.

So, is it better for us to
a) abandon the green agenda and for as many as possible to at least live as well as possible until the environment weeds us all out
b) push the green agenda and sod the consequences - if a few million freeze or starve it will weed the population out and bring us back to competitiveness
c) as an act of mercy, start genocide now so that those remaining can retain their current emissions levels and this will represent a reduction as required in emissions overall
d) some other option (please provide details)

E

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RE: climate change in a recession? - 10/15/2008 6:33:15 PM

Termyn8or

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Option c of course.

Not necessarily genocide, but start with the people who signed up for these green laws and treaties.

Reason is thus, there is a demand for goods. China will pollute as much as they want. China will pollute the same planet we would, so what's the difference ? It has been clear to me for some time now that the powers that be are working against us.

T

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RE: climate change in a recession? - 10/15/2008 6:38:02 PM

Musicmystery

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f) Hope the U.S. elects someone who recognizes that the earth has climate and will thus work with you.

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RE: climate change in a recession? - 10/15/2008 6:52:18 PM

corysub

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The earth has climate! very funny... :)

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RE: climate change in a recession? - 10/15/2008 7:24:35 PM

rexrgisformidoni

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None of this will matter in 2012.

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RE: climate change in a recession? - 10/15/2008 7:54:26 PM

Marc2b

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quote:

a) abandon the green agenda and for as many as possible to at least live as well as possible until the environment weeds us all out
b) push the green agenda and sod the consequences - if a few million freeze or starve it will weed the population out and bring us back to competitiveness

Beware of self imposed limitations. Why does it have to be one or the other? Human beings (when they are not having limits placed upon them – be they self imposed or otherwise) are clever, innovative, creatures. Instead of arbitrarily imposing carbon limits and punishing companies that are unable to conform (forcing them out of business or, at least, giving them incentive to cheat), why don’t we reward companies with tax breaks for reducing carbon emissions? The more you reduce the bigger the tax break you get. We should also encourage research into new, cleaner, technologies by allowing tax right offs for at least some of the cost of the research.

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RE: climate change in a recession? - 10/15/2008 9:14:47 PM

Termyn8or

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This is all great unless you have been in a building with a big pot of boiling metal such as a foundry.

If we keep shipping it out to be made into products, they will pollute as much as we would, maybe more. The only difference is that our pocket will be very clean.

Tough times demand tough action. Relax the restrictions and let the patient (I mean economy) heal from the blows it has taken, and will take in the near future.

We elected the idiots to act in our best interest, not that of the whole world. Now they have to stop continuously crippling us. I swear they are hell bent on turning any and all civilized countries into third world rat traps, no matter what it costs us.

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RE: climate change in a recession? - 10/16/2008 6:23:52 AM

corysub

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We are just entering a period of horrible economic times for the globe. I don't think people are going to worry too much about the ice caps..which actually grew in the arctic this year according to organizations that monitor these things. Actually, Alaska has just gone through its coldest summer season in twenty years quoted one government geologist.
We all should work to keep the planet clean..but the Gorean hysteria (Al Gore) wanes in importance and significance as people focus on trying to survive. (Sorry, did not mean any slight to my Gorean lifestyle friends) From what I hear, the polar bear is doing better than a lot of people these days, thank you very much.

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RE: climate change in a recession? - 10/16/2008 9:19:49 AM

Marc2b

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quote:

This is all great unless you have been in a building with a big pot of boiling metal such as a foundry.

If we keep shipping it out to be made into products, they will pollute as much as we would, maybe more. The only difference is that our pocket will be very clean.

Tough times demand tough action. Relax the restrictions and let the patient (I mean economy) heal from the blows it has taken, and will take in the near future.

We elected the idiots to act in our best interest, not that of the whole world. Now they have to stop continuously crippling us. I swear they are hell bent on turning any and all civilized countries into third world rat traps, no matter what it costs us.

I have been in a foundry. Just saying.

That aside, you are talking about the law of unintended consequences (or at least an aspect of it) where a problem appears to be solved but is in fact only shifted somewhere else. For example, do electric cars really reduce overall carbon emissions or are they merely shifting the source of the pollution form one place (the car) to another place (the electric generation plant)? The answer to that question depends upon how the plant is producing electricity. If they are burning oil or coal there may be no reduction in overall carbon emissions to operate the car. Indeed, there may even be an increase. If the generating plant is nuclear there will be a reduction in carbon emissions but at the expense of increased radioactive waste (in which case we have to ask ourselves, is this a trade off we are willing to accept?). A solar or wind plant would result in a decrease in carbon emissions but can solar or wind plants keep up with the demand? There are no easy answers and I have no faith in government bureaucrats.

Obviously some businesses naturally produce more carbon than others. The question is: what approach do we want to use in getting businesses to seek out ways (known or yet to be known) to actually reduce (not shift to somewhere else) carbon emissions. We can put our faith in the government (the few) or in the people (the many). Obviously, you have a better chance of finding new and innovative ideas and technologies amongst the many than the few (especially if the few have an incentive to maintain the status quo). So, how do we motivate the many? It all comes down to the oldest method for influencing human behavior – the carrot and the stick, reward and punishment (something BDSMers should know all about). How much of one or the other (or both) you should use depends upon the situation. In this situation I believe we should lean to the side of reward.

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RE: climate change in a recession? - 10/16/2008 12:21:09 PM

tweedydaddy

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Get Friends of the Earth, Green peace and Sting into a large deep coal mine, end of problem.

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RE: climate change in a recession? - 10/16/2008 12:25:54 PM

Marc2b

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quote:

Get Friends of the Earth, Green peace and Sting into a large deep coal mine, end of problem.

Don't forget to toss in all those assholes from the Earth Liberation Front and PETA.

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RE: climate change in a recession? - 10/16/2008 1:52:27 PM

LadyEllen

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You see, I think a reasonable option (d) in the circumstances would be to suspend carbon emission limitations for the next five years so that our economies suffer as little as possible in the coming recession.

In that time, we need to make available the sort of funding we seem to have conjured from nowhere for the banks, to establish and develop means of getting away from fossil fuels - if mankind can put men on the moon (several times) then it should be possible within ten years from today, to reduce carbon emissions to very low levels indeed - essential uses only - in fact, levels far below the current pre 1991 levels.

The research, development, manufacturing, distribution and maintenance of this new technology could be expected to provide thousands of well paid jobs in our economies, with the opportunity to export these new technologies worldwide.

Ten years from now, we could have minimal emission levels, much higher employment and incomes, freedom from the geopolitical influences of those who have control over the fossil fuels and much healthier societies overall - societies in which there is more of a future for more people, and so much reduced societal fracture.

So, when you're voting next month, consider the future - vote LadyEllen for President. And, when the UK elections arrive, vote LadyEllen for PM too.

Under my dictatorship, the world shall prosper

E

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