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RE: Money As Debt - 10/11/2008 10:08:55 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou
When a holding appreciates in value, and therefore expands the money supply, the US does not create an equal quantity of debt.

When a holding appreciates such as real estate, it does not expand the money supply.  Why do you think it expands the money supply?

Because it does?

Take a simple asset appreciation. A home appreciates from 100k to 1 million. The owner is now worth 900k more. That means there are now 900k more dollars. With the vast majority of all dollars existing as accounting details like this it, combined with many similiar occurences throughout the economy, does mean the money supply expands without action by the government. You could of course verify this with any economist or accountant or you could continue believing conspiracy nuts.


You mentioned conspiracy in your first post, yet the link i provided shows much the same as you have correctly pointed out. If i sell an asset which has apreciated, and then deposit the savings, the banks can lend against thouse savings with credit money ( Not the same thing as fiat currency )

Therefore, what exactly do you think is a conspiracy about the video ?

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Money As Debt - 10/11/2008 11:12:39 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Because you and the people who made the video are trying to convince people that fiat money is bad and that we need to return to a precious metal standard. That always devolves into Bretton Woods paranoia and other conspiracy ravings.

But nice backhanded way to finally agree that money != debt.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Money As Debt - 10/11/2008 11:21:08 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline 		~ FR ~

Let's not confuse money and wealth.

Suppose all the goods and services in the world are represented by two identical 40' boats. If the world's total money supply is $100, then each boat is worth $50. Now let's say I print another $100. When the economy settles down after absorbing that flood of cash, the boats are each worth $100.

If you own one of those boats, are you wealthier now?

The correct answer is no. In economics, wealth consists of things that have a monetary or exchange value. You still only own one boat. It's value in dollars has doubled because the value of the money has fallen. You still can't exchange it for any more goods and services than you could before.

Magical accounting aside, money isn't wealth.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/11/2008 11:38:24 AM >

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Money As Debt - 10/11/2008 11:38:30 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Joined: 6/16/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Take a simple asset appreciation. A home appreciates from 100k to 1 million. The owner is now worth 900k more. That means there are now 900k more dollars. (...)

No. The money increase in the worth of  fixed  assets represents a reduction in the the value of the dollar.
It is true that more money may be borrowed as a consequence of the asset value increase but it needs to be because money has reduced in value.
Surprised Barbie didnt tell you that.

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Money As Debt - 10/11/2008 11:55:45 AM   
kinkbound


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Joined: 9/15/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Because you and the people who made the video are trying to convince people that fiat money is bad and that we need to return to a precious metal standard. That always devolves into Bretton Woods paranoia and other conspiracy ravings.

But nice backhanded way to finally agree that money != debt.


I watched both videos. Neither one shunned fiat money or advocated a return to a commodity-based monetary system. They both advocated a non-debt monetary system, and the longer video even pointed out that people would not likely want to return to a metal-based money.

Also, who here on this thread has advocated a return to a commodity-based money?



(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Money As Debt - 10/11/2008 12:13:30 PM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Because you and the people who made the video are trying to convince people that fiat money is bad and that we need to return to a precious metal standard. That always devolves into Bretton Woods paranoia and other conspiracy ravings.

But nice backhanded way to finally agree that money != debt.


Youre putting words in my mouth and talking rubbish. Did you watch the link i posted ? It isnt about the fiat currency and i have never mentioned it. Except to say it isnt the same as credit money.




(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Money As Debt - 10/11/2008 3:06:53 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Sure you keep claiming that. Two options are available, fiat money and hard money. Attack the fiat system and you are fairly obviously advocating for hard currency. Do so by telling straight up falsehoods and expect to get called on it.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Money As Debt - 10/11/2008 3:48:41 PM   
NeedToUseYou


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Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Sure you keep claiming that. Two options are available, fiat money and hard money. Attack the fiat system and you are fairly obviously advocating for hard currency. Do so by telling straight up falsehoods and expect to get called on it.


Anyway, I can't speak for everyone else, but I'm not even for a return to the Gold Standard anymore. I'm for either of two options, changing the structure of the way fiat money is introduced into the system, or allow competing currencies.

Anyway, your house appreciating is not expanding the money supply, it may be for you, but the maximum amount of money a bank can loan is dictated by its reserves, if all the houses appreciated then even though on made up paper it might say its worth 1000000, the banks wouldn't be able to loan without a fresh injection of new cash, and that cash comes from the psuedo government.

I don't think we are going to get anywhere, what you are describing is the banks having enough reserve capacity to expand the money supply. That's true they can expand the money supply but only so far, it eventually in order to keep new money available must have new injections of money from the fed.

My whole objection to our system is that there is interest attached to FED money, and two that it is given to the banks. I think that is ass backwards.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Money As Debt - 10/11/2008 3:50:08 PM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Sure you keep claiming that. Two options are available, fiat money and hard money. Attack the fiat system and you are fairly obviously advocating for hard currency. Do so by telling straight up falsehoods and expect to get called on it.


Its a shame when personal attacks are the best you can do.

Which part of "I didnt mention fiat currency" dont you understand ?

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Money As Debt - 10/11/2008 4:11:32 PM   
Kirata


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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

My whole objection to our system is that there is interest attached to FED money

You are not alone....
 
"History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and its issuance." ~James Madison
 
"You are a den of vipers and thieves. I intend to rout you out, and by the Eternal God, I will rout you out... If people only understood the rank injustice of the money and banking system, there would be a revolution by morning." ~Andrew Jackson
 
"The Government should create, issue, and circulate all the currency and credits needed to satisfy the spending power of the Government and the buying power of consumers. By the adoption of these principles, the taxpayers will be saved immense sums of interest." ~Abraham Lincoln
 
The oft-heard "explanation" that we're borrowing from ourselves is a crock of shit.
 
K.




< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/11/2008 4:18:18 PM >

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Money As Debt - 10/11/2008 4:41:30 PM   
kinkbound


Posts: 387
Joined: 9/15/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Sure you keep claiming that. Two options are available, fiat money and hard money. Attack the fiat system and you are fairly obviously advocating for hard currency. Do so by telling straight up falsehoods and expect to get called on it.


There are at least three options: fiat debt-based, fiat non-debt based, and commodity-based (hard) money. We currently have a fiat debt-based monetary system.

No one here is attacking all fiat money, but many are attacking debt-based money.

See the difference now?

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Money As Debt - 10/11/2008 6:02:59 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		No such thing as debt based fiat currency. Show me the specific tbill, tbond or other treasury security backing the dollar in my pocket.

The federal government only issues debt by way of specific treasury securities. None are ever issued to fund expansion of the money supply.

Now why not do the rearch on the issue with an actual economist or banker rather than internet videos.

(in reply to kinkbound)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Money As Debt - 10/11/2008 6:43:06 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline 		Ain't no debt money
This I know
For DomKen
Has told me so
 
[chorus]
 
K.
 
 
 
 
 

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Money As Debt - 10/11/2008 7:00:49 PM   
NumberSix


Posts: 1378
Joined: 12/30/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

No such thing as debt based fiat currency. Show me the specific tbill, tbond or other treasury security backing the dollar in my pocket.

The federal government only issues debt by way of specific treasury securities. None are ever issued to fund expansion of the money supply.

Now why not do the rearch on the issue with an actual economist or banker rather than internet videos.


Ken, I'll hang with you a long fuckin ways, but there is no coin of the realm.

As of the moment that Nixon took uf off the gold standard they are all issued to fund expansion of the money supply.

We are all Kenyesians now, nixon said, and that would work if we werent so glabourously focusing on exporting our unique brand of fuckwadism to the world.

Nope, that dog ain't gonna hunt Ken.

Ron

_____________________________

"Who are you?"
"The new Number Two."
"Who is Number One?"
"You are Number Six.".
"I am not a number — I am a free man!"

Be seeing you...

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Money As Debt - 10/11/2008 7:10:03 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Actually, while you guys are discussing apples and oranges, Ken is essentially correct, if less than gracious.

The Treasury is responsible for fiscal issues, as Ken noted. The Fed is responsible for monetary issues.

Both are backed by the taxing power of the U.S. government, nothing else.

Kirata is correct about separating money and wealth, but money and currency aren't the same either. Currency is the paper in your wallet. Money is a concept, not a physical thing.

My issue is that I don't see the point of this discussion. Not a criticism, just not seeing where you're going.

Tim

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 10/11/2008 7:20:21 PM >

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Money As Debt - 10/11/2008 8:38:02 PM   
kinkbound


Posts: 387
Joined: 9/15/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Ain't no debt money
This I know
For DomKen
Has told me so
 
[chorus]
 
K.
 
 


   

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Money As Debt - 10/13/2008 7:32:50 PM   
TheUtopian


Posts: 259
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Sure you keep claiming that. Two options are available, fiat money and hard money. Attack the fiat system and you are fairly obviously advocating for hard currency. Do so by telling straight up falsehoods and expect to get called on it.


Its a shame when personal attacks are the best you can do.

Which part of "I didnt mention fiat currency" dont you understand ?


Politesub - All I can say is that you are indeed a polite dude and a hellva nice guy{I've read quite a few of your posts}.....and there would be hell to pay for to someone calling you names if we we're all in a lounge and I was sitting next to you - Bet





- R


_____________________________

Vae Victus! - Woe to the conquered....

My tears are the cure for cancer - I sweat testosterone, bleed black, and piss excellence.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 37
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