RE: Money As Debt

RE: Money As Debt (Full Version)

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Politesub53 -> RE: Money As Debt (10/11/2008 10:08:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou When a holding appreciates in value, and therefore expands the money supply, the US does not create an equal quantity of debt. When a holding appreciates such as real estate, it does not expand the money supply. Why do you think it expands the money supply? Because it does? Take a simple asset appreciation. A home appreciates from 100k to 1 million. The owner is now worth 900k more. That means there are now 900k more dollars. With the vast majority of all dollars existing as accounting details like this it, combined with many similiar occurences throughout the economy, does mean the money supply expands without action by the government. You could of course verify this with any economist or accountant or you could continue believing conspiracy nuts. You mentioned conspiracy in your first post, yet the link i provided shows much the same as you have correctly pointed out. If i sell an asset which has apreciated, and then deposit the savings, the banks can lend against thouse savings with credit money ( Not the same thing as fiat currency ) Therefore, what exactly do you think is a conspiracy about the video ?

DomKen -> RE: Money As Debt (10/11/2008 11:12:39 AM)
Because you and the people who made the video are trying to convince people that fiat money is bad and that we need to return to a precious metal standard. That always devolves into Bretton Woods paranoia and other conspiracy ravings. But nice backhanded way to finally agree that money != debt.

Kirata -> RE: Money As Debt (10/11/2008 11:21:08 AM)
~ FR ~ Let's not confuse money and wealth. Suppose all the goods and services in the world are represented by two identical 40' boats. If the world's total money supply is $100, then each boat is worth $50. Now let's say I print another $100. When the economy settles down after absorbing that flood of cash, the boats are each worth $100. If you own one of those boats, are you wealthier now? The correct answer is no. In economics, wealth consists of things that have a monetary or exchange value. You still only own one boat. It's value in dollars has doubled because the value of the money has fallen. You still can't exchange it for any more goods and services than you could before. Magical accounting aside, money isn't wealth. K.

seeksfemslave -> RE: Money As Debt (10/11/2008 11:38:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Take a simple asset appreciation. A home appreciates from 100k to 1 million. The owner is now worth 900k more. That means there are now 900k more dollars. (...) No. The money increase in the worth of fixed assets represents a reduction in the the value of the dollar. It is true that more money may be borrowed as a consequence of the asset value increase but it needs to be because money has reduced in value. Surprised Barbie didnt tell you that.

kinkbound -> RE: Money As Debt (10/11/2008 11:55:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Because you and the people who made the video are trying to convince people that fiat money is bad and that we need to return to a precious metal standard. That always devolves into Bretton Woods paranoia and other conspiracy ravings. But nice backhanded way to finally agree that money != debt. I watched both videos. Neither one shunned fiat money or advocated a return to a commodity-based monetary system. They both advocated a non-debt monetary system, and the longer video even pointed out that people would not likely want to return to a metal-based money. Also, who here on this thread has advocated a return to a commodity-based money?

Politesub53 -> RE: Money As Debt (10/11/2008 12:13:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Because you and the people who made the video are trying to convince people that fiat money is bad and that we need to return to a precious metal standard. That always devolves into Bretton Woods paranoia and other conspiracy ravings. But nice backhanded way to finally agree that money != debt. Youre putting words in my mouth and talking rubbish. Did you watch the link i posted ? It isnt about the fiat currency and i have never mentioned it. Except to say it isnt the same as credit money.

DomKen -> RE: Money As Debt (10/11/2008 3:06:53 PM)
Sure you keep claiming that. Two options are available, fiat money and hard money. Attack the fiat system and you are fairly obviously advocating for hard currency. Do so by telling straight up falsehoods and expect to get called on it.

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Money As Debt (10/11/2008 3:48:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Sure you keep claiming that. Two options are available, fiat money and hard money. Attack the fiat system and you are fairly obviously advocating for hard currency. Do so by telling straight up falsehoods and expect to get called on it. Anyway, I can't speak for everyone else, but I'm not even for a return to the Gold Standard anymore. I'm for either of two options, changing the structure of the way fiat money is introduced into the system, or allow competing currencies. Anyway, your house appreciating is not expanding the money supply, it may be for you, but the maximum amount of money a bank can loan is dictated by its reserves, if all the houses appreciated then even though on made up paper it might say its worth 1000000, the banks wouldn't be able to loan without a fresh injection of new cash, and that cash comes from the psuedo government. I don't think we are going to get anywhere, what you are describing is the banks having enough reserve capacity to expand the money supply. That's true they can expand the money supply but only so far, it eventually in order to keep new money available must have new injections of money from the fed. My whole objection to our system is that there is interest attached to FED money, and two that it is given to the banks. I think that is ass backwards.

Politesub53 -> RE: Money As Debt (10/11/2008 3:50:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Sure you keep claiming that. Two options are available, fiat money and hard money. Attack the fiat system and you are fairly obviously advocating for hard currency. Do so by telling straight up falsehoods and expect to get called on it. Its a shame when personal attacks are the best you can do. Which part of "I didnt mention fiat currency" dont you understand ?

Kirata -> RE: Money As Debt (10/11/2008 4:11:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou My whole objection to our system is that there is interest attached to FED money You are not alone.... "History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and its issuance." ~James Madison "You are a den of vipers and thieves. I intend to rout you out, and by the Eternal God, I will rout you out... If people only understood the rank injustice of the money and banking system, there would be a revolution by morning." ~Andrew Jackson "The Government should create, issue, and circulate all the currency and credits needed to satisfy the spending power of the Government and the buying power of consumers. By the adoption of these principles, the taxpayers will be saved immense sums of interest." ~Abraham Lincoln The oft-heard "explanation" that we're borrowing from ourselves is a crock of shit. K.

kinkbound -> RE: Money As Debt (10/11/2008 4:41:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Sure you keep claiming that. Two options are available, fiat money and hard money. Attack the fiat system and you are fairly obviously advocating for hard currency. Do so by telling straight up falsehoods and expect to get called on it. There are at least three options: fiat debt-based, fiat non-debt based, and commodity-based (hard) money. We currently have a fiat debt-based monetary system. No one here is attacking all fiat money, but many are attacking debt-based money. See the difference now?

DomKen -> RE: Money As Debt (10/11/2008 6:02:59 PM)
No such thing as debt based fiat currency. Show me the specific tbill, tbond or other treasury security backing the dollar in my pocket. The federal government only issues debt by way of specific treasury securities. None are ever issued to fund expansion of the money supply. Now why not do the rearch on the issue with an actual economist or banker rather than internet videos.

Kirata -> RE: Money As Debt (10/11/2008 6:43:06 PM)
Ain't no debt money This I know For DomKen Has told me so [chorus] K.

NumberSix -> RE: Money As Debt (10/11/2008 7:00:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen No such thing as debt based fiat currency. Show me the specific tbill, tbond or other treasury security backing the dollar in my pocket. The federal government only issues debt by way of specific treasury securities. None are ever issued to fund expansion of the money supply. Now why not do the rearch on the issue with an actual economist or banker rather than internet videos. Ken, I'll hang with you a long fuckin ways, but there is no coin of the realm. As of the moment that Nixon took uf off the gold standard they are all issued to fund expansion of the money supply. We are all Kenyesians now, nixon said, and that would work if we werent so glabourously focusing on exporting our unique brand of fuckwadism to the world. Nope, that dog ain't gonna hunt Ken. Ron

Musicmystery -> RE: Money As Debt (10/11/2008 7:10:03 PM)
Actually, while you guys are discussing apples and oranges, Ken is essentially correct, if less than gracious. The Treasury is responsible for fiscal issues, as Ken noted. The Fed is responsible for monetary issues. Both are backed by the taxing power of the U.S. government, nothing else. Kirata is correct about separating money and wealth, but money and currency aren't the same either. Currency is the paper in your wallet. Money is a concept, not a physical thing. My issue is that I don't see the point of this discussion. Not a criticism, just not seeing where you're going. Tim

kinkbound -> RE: Money As Debt (10/11/2008 8:38:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata Ain't no debt money This I know For DomKen Has told me so [chorus] K. [:D]

TheUtopian -> RE: Money As Debt (10/13/2008 7:32:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Sure you keep claiming that. Two options are available, fiat money and hard money. Attack the fiat system and you are fairly obviously advocating for hard currency. Do so by telling straight up falsehoods and expect to get called on it. Its a shame when personal attacks are the best you can do. Which part of "I didnt mention fiat currency" dont you understand ? Politesub - All I can say is that you are indeed a polite dude and a hellva nice guy{I've read quite a few of your posts}.....and there would be hell to pay for to someone calling you names if we we're all in a lounge and I was sitting next to you - Bet - R

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