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Termyn8or -> RE: if it gets really bad -promisory notes? (10/7/2008 10:02:41 AM)
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There is a barter based group in Lake County, Ohio. A bunch of businesses trade services. However everything is still taxed, even though no money changed hands. I think that's wrong. If I engage in barter I would never even consider telling the government. Are you crazy ?
Their ability to tax comes from us using their money, and yes it is all their money, at least in the US. I have all of the pertinent statutes and codes involved in it, that basically states that the government owns everything, and we are but users in good standing. It is their own law, their own words and a matter of public record.
Now for example I could see that a TV shop putting a picture tube in the mechanic's TV, or the mechanic putting a transmission in the TV truck, the part would be somehow taxable. When the part comes from a place that pays taxes though, it is already taxed, but the installer has used his sales tax exempt status to get the part.
However when they get to the point where they tax labor, that action is assumptive that they own it. That means they own your labor, your sweat and blood, which in turn means they own you.
Property cannot own property. They have obfuscated that fact in many ways, but it still remains true. When you buy a house you get a title deed, not a deed. The only people with a real deeds are those who inherited a survivorship deed for land that has been in the family since before the depression. I know such a person, and to get a loan on the property he had to convert it, basically inCORPorate it into this unseen public trust of sorts.
It is likely you have never owned a car in your life. In Ohio you don't even get a title, you get a certificate of title. I knew someone who actually owned a car, well a Jimmy, which for those over the pond is basically an overgrown station wagon that almost qualifies as a truck. He actually had what's called the MSO for it, and there was never an Ohio certificate of title. He has been dead now for a few years, and that Jimmy still sits at the junkyard and cannot be scrapped, EVER. Why? Because when there is a certificate of title the state can go to court and just take it. Because he had the Manufacturer's Statement of Origin, they can never ever legally dispose of that vehicle, no matter if the storage charges add up to millions of dollars.
One state in the union would, I heard up until around five years ago, issue license plates on a car with an MSO. Only one. Not sure if they do anymore.
So when you barter, is the government going to have people watching you, and if you trade a bunch of tomatoes for someone to fix your gutters, will they step in and demand a few tomatoes for taxes, and possibly something from the gutter fixer, like a few feet of gutter or something ? You betcha believe they would if they could.
I firmly believe that the avoidance of money is of prime importance in toppling this regime of mattoids who run the world. However, if you think they are going to let that happen easily, you are quite mistaken. I said it before and I'll say it again, we are not playing with kids here.
As has been mentioned as well, there is a certain amount of actual currency, fiat or not, required to maintain our lifestyle. We like having electricity, internet, heating and cooling. Stuff like that, not to mention city water and sewage for some.
And even in ideal conditions, the gov really does need something if we expect to drive on roads.
Now the promissory note thing, either it is money or it is not. It's like writing a check in a way. It is promised to be good, but only by one person. Money is actually the same thing, so are we actually printing money ? If you write "I owe Joe Blow One free plumbing job (supply side only) for doing brakes and a ball joint on my truck" there is no money mentioned.
The "official" barter system in Lake county forces people to assess a dollar value to everything for tax purposes. In a way it is self policing, you can't state too low, you can lose, you can't state too high otherwise the taxes eat you up.
Don't get me wrong, I am all for the idea of barter, free of taxes, but there are some big problems in implementation. The biggest of which is assessing the value of said goods and services. For example changing a hot water tank is not equal to mowing the grass, well unless the yard is very large, I mean huge. Fixing someone's PC is not equal to a new kitchen or bath. A haircut is not equal to an overhaul on your car engine.
How do we determine these values ?
Credit hours ? Register your skills and then it is determined how many credit hours you get per hour of work ? That sounds plausible. Let's say there is a scale. Lowest on the totem pole so to speak would be general, not strenuous labour. For example cutting grass. The scale would be 1.0. For meticulous work, the trimming and whatever, perhaps 1.2. Then what ? The plumbers and electricians get 2.65 or something like that, or higher if the work is hard or complex ? Then there's the guy who fixes furnaces, would he get a better rate in the winter than the summer ?
The point is, using a standardized modicum of exchange has, in large part determined these rates now. I remember DA, who said he is not going to pay a plumber forty bucks an hour to solder a couple of joints, I agree, but what happens when it comes time to get your main drain snaked out all the way to the street ?
Interesting to note, in the plan I envision, the only people who would get credits less than 1.0 would be politicians and bankers. Can you imagine telling them to take their money and stick it where the sun don't shine ? It COMPLETELY removes their power.
Because they were born into money, as long as we are addicted to money we are in their power. If we don't want their money, it is the same thing as if they did not have it. Something to ponder.
Tell you what right now, I will trade you one TV repair for three 200GB IDE (Diamndmax) harddrives. One repair, if parts can be had on a CRT based projection or direct view.
Now see I could have foot in mouth right now. That repair could run anywhere from a hundred bucks to about three. You know what the HDs cost. I don't know what the repair would cost, therefore I am taking a gamble.
Another example, you remodeled your mechanic's kitchen, and he happens to have the transmission you need for your car laying around. Now you don't have to buy the (expensive) part. That changes the equation.
So it would cost you 600 FRNs to get it, now how is that negotiated. Does something like that default back to currency ? If that happens then a dollar value or something has to be placed on each hour's labor, indexed of course by skills and abilities, as well as the job being done at the moment.
That's another point, what if someone highly skilled does a lower skill rated job ? What if a plumber or something, normally classed higher, had no work at the moment and decided to take a nearby task of mowing someone's grass ? I don't think he should get his plumbing rate for that, however there is the possibility that he might get a call and have a time conflict. What happens then ? (LE, you are probably an expert on time conflict in that business).
I would like to expound and expand here, this is one of the keys to the People taking back power, and I want to explore it. Given the OP this is in no way a hijack, what I am saying is, how can we make a barter system fair ? The only way to make it fair is to get alot of input from all sides.
Now this thread is costing me money, but I know there are more important things than money. Thing is, make it fair. The system we have is not fair, and we have the results.
First of all, I would say make certificates for each hour of work. Of course make fives and tens, but they must be filled out. If the issuer is a plumber and it is 100 credit hours, but because he gets a higher rate it is not the full 100, say it may be 40 hours supply side work or 20 hours drain side work, how do you give change ?
Or would a new promissory note be written ? I think that leaves the system open to alot of abuse, because in case some haven't noticed, there are some nasty people out there. All politicians may be crooks, but not all crooks are politicians.
Any ideas ?
T
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