It's happening already.. (Full Version)

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pdv99 -> It's happening already.. (10/3/2008 8:08:25 AM)

Yes, my worst fears about the proposed changes in the law are being realised....a free forum I follow (www.uk-exhibitionist.com/ipb ) always had a small but interesting BDSM section.
Today I found this posted there:
"as some of you know the law is changing soon in connection with bondage pic's

so to protect this site from being pulled can i please ask that u do not post any bondage pic's of any sort in this forum

or any other sorry but law's are something we have no control over

thank's

xxx "

Yes, it's premature, but it's exactly what I thought would happen - rather than risk a future prosecution, moderators - looking after boards for free in their spare time - are going to ban any content which might be controversial in terms of the new rules on "violent porn" :(
Anyone else seen examples?




sub4hire -> RE: It's happening already.. (10/3/2008 8:11:01 AM)

Article 2557 in the States is more less the same law.

You can have porn but it must be well documented.  Otherwise if they want to come down
on you they can with hefty prison terms.  Though, it seems to be who they want to come down
on versus who they don't.  I have no idea how they choose which sites.





faerytattoodgirl -> RE: It's happening already.. (10/3/2008 8:17:54 AM)

the only pics you see on this forum are the avatar.

the avatar is either the main pic of the profile or a chosen one from the avatar's available...

the mods delete any attempt at posting an actual pic in a thread.




Rover -> RE: It's happening already.. (10/3/2008 8:29:25 AM)

Don't be overly concerned... the UK isn't China and Google isn't gonna limit the content you chaps can access.  If UK laws prohibiting "violent" porn become overly burdensome, websites originating in the UK will simply have them hosted on servers originating outside the UK, and not subject to their laws.
 
Try as they might, do-good socialist legislators in any country cannot really have a meaningful effect  upon content.
 
John




missturbation -> RE: It's happening already.. (10/3/2008 9:15:08 AM)

I haven't noticed anything picture wise, but whilst toy shopping on ebay i noticed a huge increase in the number of toys which included warnings.
Not intended for use on humans.
Prop only.
For fancy dress only etc etc.




NihilusZero -> RE: It's happening already.. (10/3/2008 9:25:33 AM)

From what I vaguely recall, the UK does seem to have a stricter history of non-leniency towards specifically BDSM related imagery.

US 2257 regulations are slightly different, dealing more with the verifiable paperwork needed to display pornographic (or even nude) imagery of another person on publicly accessible published mediums. This would not be as applicable to images posted on web forums because (presumably) these are of you and your significant other(s) (whom, I'd assume, you have the pertinent legal documentation for).




RCdc -> RE: It's happening already.. (10/3/2008 9:41:32 AM)

I know that IC has altered it's photograph policy.  All the images have to be resubmitted or they will disappear - there is a date given but off hand I cannot remember when it is.  So if you are on IC and haven't checked you images for a while, there are instructions there when you do.
 
the.dark.




pdv99 -> RE: It's happening already.. (10/3/2008 10:38:18 AM)

My point is, that in the UK the new law isn't even in force until January 2009 - but UK hosted websites which included a mix of 'nilla and BDSM images in the past have already banned any BDSM content for fear of what the law might do....so no point in saying "It won't really have any effect.
IT IS HAVING AN EFFECT ALREADY!
'nilla folk who might have been interested to have a look at a few "innocent bondage pics" (at least by my definition) can  no longer do so because the site has banned them.
Peter




SlaveIndigochild -> RE: It's happening already.. (10/3/2008 10:40:03 AM)

alt.com seems to soldier on.........mind you i closed my account earlier this year so things might have changed.




SlaveIndigochild -> RE: It's happening already.. (10/3/2008 10:41:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

Don't be overly concerned... the UK isn't China and Google isn't gonna limit the content you chaps can access.  If UK laws prohibiting "violent" porn become overly burdensome, websites originating in the UK will simply have them hosted on servers originating outside the UK, and not subject to their laws.
 
Try as they might, do-good socialist legislators in any country cannot really have a meaningful effect  upon content.
 
John

oh please don't blame 'the socialists'. They're all having a pint and fish and chips at the local. i blame the voices in the radiators myself.




Rover -> RE: It's happening already.. (10/3/2008 10:51:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pdv99

My point is, that in the UK the new law isn't even in force until January 2009 - but UK hosted websites which included a mix of 'nilla and BDSM images in the past have already banned any BDSM content for fear of what the law might do....so no point in saying "It won't really have any effect.
IT IS HAVING AN EFFECT ALREADY!
'nilla folk who might have been interested to have a look at a few "innocent bondage pics" (at least by my definition) can  no longer do so because the site has banned them.
Peter


Peter, when 'nilla folk can no longer enter "bondage" into Google and get upwards of 52,600,000 sites in 0.12 seconds (as is the case today), then I will admit that this law (whatever it is) is having an effect.  Until then, I will assert that the sky is not falling.
 
John




mistoferin -> RE: It's happening already.. (10/3/2008 10:53:53 AM)

Fast reply~

I received an email that alerted me to the fact that The 2 Knotty Boys videos were pulled from YouTube. Their videos are very informative and instructional, step by step type videos that show how to do many types of bondage ties. No porn. The email came with links to a petition to try to get them back on YouTube (although I think that might be futile) and another link to a site that they have placed their videos on so that people can download them for free. I'll include those here so if anyone is interested they can check them out.

http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/tkbyoutube

http://www.touwtjes.tk/2kb/




stella41b -> RE: It's happening already.. (10/3/2008 10:56:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

I haven't noticed anything picture wise, but whilst toy shopping on ebay i noticed a huge increase in the number of toys which included warnings.
Not intended for use on humans.
Prop only.
For fancy dress only etc etc.


I've noticed that there's now no media coverage of John Prescott. This might have something to do with the changes perhaps?




missturbation -> RE: It's happening already.. (10/3/2008 11:03:09 AM)

quote:

My point is, that in the UK the new law isn't even in force until January 2009 - but UK hosted websites which included a mix of 'nilla and BDSM images in the past have already banned any BDSM content for fear of what the law might do....so no point in saying "It won't really have any effect.
IT IS HAVING AN EFFECT ALREADY!


Over reaction - much!!
 
Stop and think about this. Is this change you have noticed affecting you practicing bdsm in the real world? No.
Before the internet came along people managed to practice bdsm and if it goes they will practice bdsm quite well.
Surely concern should lie in the effects the law will have on our 'real' day to day lives, not a few disappearing internet pics.





colouredin -> RE: It's happening already.. (10/3/2008 11:09:30 AM)

Quite Missterbation its so dramatic, its only images for christs sake does it really matter, i know it wont affect me. On another site they are all getting worked up about this too http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/10/02/web_regulation_byron/ but i really think its just moral panic, folk devils and government fog, we get a new one every few years to divert attention from the governments failings onto some small group that sociaety gets all worked up about then feels all safe at the change in law that really doesnt make any differance.




LadyEllen -> RE: It's happening already.. (10/3/2008 1:36:36 PM)

The real problems here are twofold
1) what is prohibited by the new law is not understood by the general public
2) there is no clarity from police or CPS as to how they might interpret the new law, nor even indeed whether they themselves understand the new law

What is prohibited is possession of images, but the images must be
a) pornographic - made for the purpose of pornography
b) a depiction of one of the following "extreme" acts
a)     an act which threatens or appears to threaten a person’s life
b)     an act which results in or appears to result (or be likely to result) in serious injury to a person’s anus, breasts or genitals
c)     an act which involves or appears to involve sexual interference with a human corpse
d)     a person performing or appearing to perform an act of intercourse or oral sex with an animal

One would hope that (c) and (d) did not affect anyone here, but (b) certainly could and (a) might well do either overtly or by way of inference - someone appearing to be chained and alone for instance, on interpretation might be taken to be at risk of death by starvation if the law were applied to its extreme. The real "risk images" in terms of (b) are the likes of piercings, CBT and the like, but again, if applied to its extreme the law might be interpreted and extrapolated to implicate images of canings to the buttocks and similar.

But the real concern is suspicion of possession, arrest and investigation. There are now only two categories of people being arrested for computer porn offences, and family, friends, neighbours etc are more likely to conclude one's arrest and the seizure of one's computer is connected with the other kind, bringing ruin on anyone so affected.

With this in mind, as some here will be aware, I am currently using my position on the Independent Advisory Group with the local police force to try to deal with these concerns at the highest levels and also to find out how the law will be interpreted and applied, and to provide guidance on what goes on in general with BDSM, recognising that the law is poorly drafted albeit with reasonable aims towards removing problem people but may well adversely and inordinately affect innocent people through poor interpretation and application arising from sheer ignorance.

To date the police and CPS are very cagey. They are resistant to discussion for many reasons - but the main reason they give is that they are reluctant to provide details of interpretation and application since these may be taken up by defence lawyers and used against them and, as far as they are concerned, it is for the courts to decide whether they have done their job properly. However, I continue - since if the police wish to demonstrate understanding and acceptance of lesbian, gay and bisexual sexualities it is perverse for them to hold that they should not demonstrate equal understanding and acceptance of other sexualities and perverse for them in any way to be seen to persecute some sexualities whilst not persecuting others. They must also bear in mind that many of the LGBT community are involved in BDSM, so they must tread carefully if they wish to build bridges as is their stated and required intent.

E




tweedydaddy -> RE: It's happening already.. (10/3/2008 3:38:05 PM)

Your right, we're all doomed.
Better make the most of it.




sistermargaret -> RE: It's happening already.. (10/3/2008 9:04:11 PM)

i'm really not too worried about a system of control that can't control spam, trolls and pop-up porn. They can legislate all they want, but they can't enforce much of it. (See War on Drugs)
sm
 
All it takes is absolute surrender




pdv99 -> RE: It's happening already.. (10/4/2008 10:51:15 AM)

Thanks Lady Ellen - for both your informed comments, and your work in the wider community.
As you hint, the issue is not simply the loss of images from the internet, but the fact that, like images of non-consensual paedophile abuse, merely posessing images of certain consensual BDSM acts  will become a criminal offence. Although the INTENTION of the law seems to be to control non-consensual commercial stuff like snuff porn, the vagueness of the wording and lack of guidance could mean that some of us could be prosecuted and jailed if an over-zealous police officer finds, for example, an image of consensual CBT on your hard drive in the course of investigating some other matter. (Yes, it happens, some police officers aren't saints, and if they can't get you for one thing they'll get you for something else...)
But the most likely effect is that many people will run shy, and just as many organisations (such as children's nurseries)will avoid holding any images of "minors" these days in order to avoid any risk of being labelled paedophiles, many people will avoid anything to do with BDSM in case they are criminalised.
(BTW, can anybody point me at an authoritative source on just what an adult can consent to in the UK? - ref. the Spanner judgement)




thetammyjo -> RE: It's happening already.. (10/4/2008 10:54:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pdv99

My point is, that in the UK the new law isn't even in force until January 2009 - but UK hosted websites which included a mix of 'nilla and BDSM images in the past have already banned any BDSM content for fear of what the law might do....so no point in saying "It won't really have any effect.
IT IS HAVING AN EFFECT ALREADY!
'nilla folk who might have been interested to have a look at a few "innocent bondage pics" (at least by my definition) can  no longer do so because the site has banned them.
Peter


This is a great example of how we let fear dictate to us.

Before the laws are even in effect or tried, we do the job of censoring ourselves. How incredibly sad for us.




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