RE: Speaking respectfully and other oddities (Full Version)

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Missokyst -> RE: Speaking respectfully and other oddities (10/3/2008 7:33:46 AM)

My thoughts exactly.
Kyst
quote:

ORIGINAL: petsuccubus
Would you walk up to a complete stranger in public and demand respect the way you do online?




dreamysubmale -> RE: Speaking respectfully and other oddities (10/3/2008 7:35:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst


What do you see as respect? 
What do you consider common courtesy?
Are they the same?
And what about manners? 
I am especially interested in the last one, as my mind calls up people picking through their toes while waiting for dinner.

It is a bad thing when your mind runs on satire.
Kyst



Common courtesy is more than just saying “thank you, please, Ms, Mrs. and Sir” I see common courtesy as a way to express genuine respect for others. I treat others the way I want to be treated.  

Manners are to take others into consideration and act accordingly…to be considerate and treat others well.  


_________________________________

There can be no happiness if the things we believe in are different from the things we do. - Freya Stark




OsideGirl -> RE: Speaking respectfully and other oddities (10/3/2008 7:42:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamysubmale
I see common courtesy as a way to express genuine respect for others.
I don't have genuine respect for strangers. Respect is something that is earned, in my opinion. Common courtesy is way to be polite if I don't know the person.

I say "thank you" to the cashier at the grocery store, it does not mean I respect that person. It merely means that they provided a service and I thanked them for it.




Rover -> RE: Speaking respectfully and other oddities (10/3/2008 7:50:32 AM)

Fast reply to no one in particular....
 
I didn't read all the posts in this thread, so this may either be redundant or considerably off base.  I'll take my chances.
 
When I see the topic of "respect" in a BDSM forum, thoughts of common courtesy or manners do not immediately spring to mind.  Why not?  Because most often (okay, that's the way it seems even if it's not a reality) it has nothing to do with either of those.  It has everything to do with some unrealistic expectation of UNcommon courtesy, that is portrayed as a requisite based upon one's station in a power exchange relationship (which is fine if it's YOUR relationship and those are the expectations inherent to that relationship dynamic but completely inappropriate if you want to establish some defacto power exchange with everyone you come across) or for the entirety of BDSM (ie: leather folks are somehow "more" courteous, or should be, to one another).
 
And frankly, in either instance I have the same thought... what makes you think that I'm going to become a non-consensual participant in your little fantasy/role play?  You can't make everyone play by your rules... get over it.  And what constitutes "respect" is so personal, so relative to each of us as individuals, that it's impossible to agree upon anything but the lowest common denominator (and even that agreement is not universal).
 
Save the issues of "respect" for your partner(s) and your friend(s).  Hang out with those who have similar views on the issue, and avoid those that do not. 
 
John




dreamysubmale -> RE: Speaking respectfully and other oddities (10/3/2008 8:33:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamysubmale
I see common courtesy as a way to express genuine respect for others.
I don't have genuine respect for strangers. Respect is something that is earned, in my opinion. Common courtesy is way to be polite if I don't know the person.

I say "thank you" to the cashier at the grocery store, it does not mean I respect that person. It merely means that they provided a service and I thanked them for it.

That’s interesting. But clearly, even the homeless deserve respect. But I guess, as Rover have indicated, respect has different meanings to different people.
____________________________

There can be no happiness if the things we believe in are different from the things we do. - Freya Stark




stella41b -> RE: Speaking respectfully and other oddities (10/3/2008 11:48:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamysubmale
I see common courtesy as a way to express genuine respect for others.
I don't have genuine respect for strangers. Respect is something that is earned, in my opinion. Common courtesy is way to be polite if I don't know the person.

I say "thank you" to the cashier at the grocery store, it does not mean I respect that person. It merely means that they provided a service and I thanked them for it.


I see it somewhat differently. I respect myself and therefore in turn respect other people. My philosophy is to treat other people the way I would want to be treated by them.

I don't have time to differentiate between those who deserve my respect and those who don't. If you are a living, breathing sentient being you pretty much end up with my respect.




WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Speaking respectfully and other oddities (10/3/2008 12:01:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caelestis
I've been known to thank people for doing stuff for them... like I'll fetch a drink or something and as I'm handing it to them I'll say "Thank You." Hehe, working nothing but public service jobs will do that to you I suppose.


I say thank you, when my boss loads my in tray with work.  [:D]  Your post made me laugh at myself when it occured to me what I'd been doing.   At least I manage to refrain from adding, '...mistress, may I have more' to that.




Missokyst -> RE: Speaking respectfully and other oddities (10/3/2008 12:14:14 PM)

Not to hijack my own thread but I just saw something on another thread that reminded me of the oddities.  One of the things that does make me lose my lunch and want to spew it in specific directions is when strangers state that because some submissives speak their mind in a public forum, that they must need discipline.  For me, that indicates a child going through the terrible 2's and stuck there for life.
There are things I see online that really push the boundries of speaking respectfully, and remind me that when people live an online fantasy it is the oddities that remind me why I choose never to seek.
I need a cup of coffee.
Kyst





simpleplan2 -> RE: Speaking respectfully and other oddities (10/3/2008 12:21:59 PM)

I always say bless you to my dog when he sneezes :)




CreativeDominant -> RE: Speaking respectfully and other oddities (10/3/2008 12:23:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

(A lot of good stuff edited out for brevity)

What do you see as respect? 
What do you consider common courtesy?
Are they the same?
And what about manners? 


All good questions.  It seems that the answer would be simple but when you begin to think about it, it really isn't.

If anyone cares to look at my age in my profile, they will know when I was raised.  I was raised in a time when you asked someone to pass you something at the dinner table and then thanked them for doing so.  I was raised when a boy/man was taught that a gentleman held the door for ladies, ran out to take the groceries from her arms when she came home from the grocery story, helped her on and off with her coat, took her arm as they crossed the street, walked on the side of the sidewalk nearest the street.  I was taught that you answer invitations...by mail preferably, if they were mailed to you but in a pinch, calling was acceptable.  To not answer was considered rude and the actions of either an impolite or not-well-educated boor.
I was taught that if someone sends you mail that is polite and concerned, then you answer it.  If someone sends you mail that is rude and disrespectful, you still answer the mail but you can do so with courtesy and display intelligence in your reply.  I was taught that answering phone messages...even from people you don't like or care about...was just good manners and, in some cases, good for business and, when you reflect on it, just makes good sense.  If you like them and/or care about them, why wouldn't you call them back?  If you respect them, how is it showing respect to let their calls go unanswered?  And if you don't like them, then perhaps you can tell them not to call again.   By not calling someone, depending on who it is , you tell them that you don't care about what they have to say, that you don't like them, or that everything else in your life comes before they do.
I was taught that you don't swear in public, that while it may not be your job to worry about other people's kids, it IS your job to be mindful of them and how easily they learn from others, that you have respect for authority figures even when you don't like them because they didn't get into that position through laziness...so if nothing else, respect the work it took to get there. 

The above has to do with manners but it also, in my mind, has to do with common courtesy and/or respect.  According to many people I speak with though, there seems to be a feeling that manners and civility and courtesy and respect are all a "veneer", hiding the "much-preferred truth".  If a person is an asshole, then tell him so...even if he is your boss. He'll WANT to know.  If your boyfriend is not doing something in the way you want, tell him what a selfish bastard he is, rather than sit down and discuss it.  If you don't walk to speak with someone, don't answer the phone when they call or turn it off or don't answer their messages.  Let your own feelings and thoughts and consideration of yourself come first, not that of others.  Be the "real" you.
Sorry...I don't always care to be the real me in the way they describe because that "me" strikes me as the selfish, immature, non-patient, everything-for-me, sadistic self that I indulge once in awhile...not all aspects at once and the parts let out are restrained through a great deal of self-control so that they can be used well and not badly  I have a feeling most people would not want to see all of THAT "real" me.
              
quote:

I am especially interested in the last one, as my mind calls up people picking through their toes while waiting for dinner.

It is a bad thing when your mind runs on satire.
Kyst



I've given you my views, at least in part, on manners and courtesy and respect.  I was taught that it doesn't cost one thin dime to be mannerly, courteous, and a respected gentleman...and gains you so much.  For the most part, I have found that to be true.




leadership527 -> RE: Speaking respectfully and other oddities (10/3/2008 12:27:43 PM)

Rover said: 
When I see the topic of "respect" in a BDSM forum, thoughts of common courtesy or manners do not immediately spring to mind.  Why not?  Because most often (okay, that's the way it seems even if it's not a reality) it has nothing to do with either of those.  It has everything to do with some unrealistic expectation of UNcommon courtesy, that is portrayed as a requisite based upon one's station in a power exchange relationship

*applause*  In other words, this entire thread is a red herring.




Missokyst -> RE: Speaking respectfully and other oddities (10/3/2008 3:38:04 PM)

A red herring in which way?  It was an honest question based on what I see when I am online.  Everytime I see a sub state that her dominant is teaching her manners, I wonder how bad hers can be.  Everytime I see someone wailing about lack of respect I wonder if people are bowing and scraping them in real life. 

I wonder these things because I was raised, and because of the way that people respond to me in particular.  I wonder these things because I honestly cannot imagine a world where women .. ok.. I will admit a bias here.. must be taught manners.  I wonder these things because in my generation men and women behaved differently.  What might be ok for a man to do in public, for instance a loud burp, was not ok for females until recent years. 

For me people are always going to be people.  Each of us on equal level, regardless of stature, until we choose to put someone up on that pedestal, we stand side by side.  In real life, these issues rarely come up.  Generally the world is full of common courtesy, and few expectations of symbols of respect.  I do see more females doing things I would not consider, spitting for instance, but otherwise courtesy is evident more often seen than not.

Speaking respectfully for me, means I do not dishonor my upbringing by using profanity every few sentences.  And rarely do I see someone as an ass, unless I come to read forums.  LOL then.. restraint becomes more difficult.
Coffee helps.
Kyst





tweedydaddy -> RE: Speaking respectfully and other oddities (10/3/2008 4:10:18 PM)

respect is treating people the way you would like to be treated.
courtesy is when you treat people better than you would like to be treated.
manners is when you do it even though they don't deserve it.
class is when you can pull it all off without making it look hard.




DiurnalVampire -> RE: Speaking respectfully and other oddities (10/3/2008 4:39:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
2) Someone else's lack of manners is never an excuse to forget your own

My grandmother used to say "Kill them with kindness".
I am always polite, even when someone has been outright rude with me. I can speak to someone and insult them very subtly if they have been absolutely nasty, and have been thanked for the equivalent of telling them to go take a shit.
I open doors for other people, I give up my seat if someone else needs it, carry bags for the elderly and will offer someone I know a ride home even if it means using a bit more gas.
I thank managers when they give me a good schedule for a week, and when they get me my change at work.
Manners apply to everyone. I can act respectfully even if I do not respect someone.
When I get a really rude email, my usual reply is "When your opinion matters to me, I will take that under consideration, however since I only worry about my friends opinions and you certainly arent one of them... I'm not going to be concerned at the moment. Thanks though!"
When I was a kid, Mom had the death stare.. we could be half way across a store and if she was staring we KNEW. It STILL works on us, even at 31.

DV




juliaoceania -> RE: Speaking respectfully and other oddities (10/3/2008 5:15:06 PM)

quote:

What do you see as respect?
What do you consider common courtesy?
Are they the same?
And what about manners?
I am especially interested in the last one, as my mind calls up people picking through their toes while waiting for dinner.


Respect is something I have for myself and I extend it to others because I have it for myself.

What I consider common courtesy is different from what others believe it is. And so I do not believe that "common courtesy" exists, since we all vary widely in what we believe that to be there must be nothing "common" about it.

Again, I respect myself, and part of self respect is having good manners and being polite. I treat people the way I like to be treated as a general rule. This extends far past "manners" into ethics and morals. It gives me a compass.




OsideGirl -> RE: Speaking respectfully and other oddities (10/4/2008 8:46:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamysubmale

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamysubmale
I see common courtesy as a way to express genuine respect for others.
I don't have genuine respect for strangers. Respect is something that is earned, in my opinion. Common courtesy is way to be polite if I don't know the person.

I say "thank you" to the cashier at the grocery store, it does not mean I respect that person. It merely means that they provided a service and I thanked them for it.

That’s interesting. But clearly, even the homeless deserve respect. But I guess, as Rover have indicated, respect has different meanings to different people.
____________________________
The definition of respect is: to show deference due to esteem or priviledge.

I treat strangers with courtesy and I try, with kindness. I think this is due to all human beings until they prove otherwise. But I don't feel they deserve my respect. They haven't earned my "esteem".

You're confusing courtesy with respect and the two aren't the same.




CreativeDominant -> RE: Speaking respectfully and other oddities (10/4/2008 12:18:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweedydaddy

respect is treating people the way you would like to be treated.
courtesy is when you treat people better than you would like to be treated.
manners is when you do it even though they don't deserve it.
class is when you can pull it all off without making it look hard.



I know I've posted my thoughts but God!!!!  Does this sound familiar...




dreamysubmale -> RE: Speaking respectfully and other oddities (10/4/2008 10:44:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamysubmale

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamysubmale
I see common courtesy as a way to express genuine respect for others.
I don't have genuine respect for strangers. Respect is something that is earned, in my opinion. Common courtesy is way to be polite if I don't know the person.

I say "thank you" to the cashier at the grocery store, it does not mean I respect that person. It merely means that they provided a service and I thanked them for it.

That’s interesting. But clearly, even the homeless deserve respect. But I guess, as Rover have indicated, respect has different meanings to different people.
____________________________
The definition of respect is: to show deference due to esteem or priviledge.

I treat strangers with courtesy and I try, with kindness. I think this is due to all human beings until they prove otherwise. But I don't feel they deserve my respect. They haven't earned my "esteem".

You're confusing courtesy with respect and the two aren't the same.

We come from different backgrounds and cultures, some of us are more privileged than others we have different beliefs, traditions and such. That in my opinion makes it hard to relate to everyone so we use common courtesy as a common denominator to show our respect to fellow human beings. Common courtesy IMHO is synonymous with respect.

I believe every human is entitled to respect from birth until their choices and actions merit otherwise.

________________________________

There can be no happiness if the things we believe in are different from the things we do. - Freya Stark




masterforRT -> RE: Speaking respectfully and other oddities (10/5/2008 12:57:06 AM)

What people here need to realize is that in the bigger scheme of things, we are a fairly small community. That said, I can't understand the amount of bickering that goes on; most of it about very petty things. If we can't respect, understand and accept each other, then how can we expect outsiders to do the same for us? Now I know that some of you feel that we are just like every other group-and as such the same human behavior happens.. Fact is, we are NOT like every other group-we are out there on the fringe. As such, then we need to make the extra effort to understand and help each other by building up-NOT tearing down as so many seem to do here!




Rover -> RE: Speaking respectfully and other oddities (10/5/2008 6:56:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: masterforRT

Now I know that some of you feel that we are just like every other group-and as such the same human behavior happens.. Fact is, we are NOT like every other group-we are out there on the fringe. As such, then we need to make the extra effort to understand and help each other by building up-NOT tearing down as so many seem to do here!


It seems to me that you're conferring what we *do* with the ability to descend upon us like the Holy Spirit, imbuing each of us with qualities we did not previously embody.  There's nothing particularly special about being "out there on the fringe".  Psychopaths are on the fringe as well, but I don't think anyone would expect them to be extraordinarily nice to one another.
 
WIITWD is unique, I'll grant you that.  But no more unique than a group of golfers, bowlers, gardeners, etc.  Less accepted, of course.  But no more unique than any other group engaged in a particular interest.  And I see no evidence that any group, BDSM included, is made *more* or *better* for it. 
 
Do you?
 
John




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