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discipline - 9/30/2008 5:19:21 AM   
errance


Posts: 8
Joined: 9/28/2008
From: Canada
Status: offline 		hello :) i have a question

I hear a lot talking about relationship and orders and discipline..... i'm used to look at a bdsm relationship like an exchange of power influence more then a love one because of the discipline...i would like for people to tell how their meaning of the word discipline for them? how does it work in their relationship and how do you need or do not need it for it to work?
I think i do not need that kind of discipline - my meaning of it is like.... talking to a child about what he did wrong or good, but i'm sure it's more complex then that. I sure dont want a Dom telling me he's not proud of what i did...let me rephrase that.
i dont want to be treated like a child, but the word discipline always makes me think of that. And as i've known bdsm since my 18's, i've never saw the bdsm relationships without the word, but myself i dont see the need to have it in mine or my future mine, so i'm all mixed up about it!

I'm asking cause i would like to know myself and what i want a bit better before getting into anything...but...i've always learn to get into something without thinking, doing it and then, thinking about it, but then i was vanilla. Now it's.........i dont know. I want to be myself as well.
I'm all mixed up. Help me please?
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: discipline - 9/30/2008 5:27:09 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		I don't know anyone who couldn't be more disciplines; better study habits, better organizational skills etc.
If that's what you mean, and a future partner could help you in the areas you are weaker in while you help him in the areas he's weaker in, what's wrong with that?

If you're talking about a punishment dynamic, then no, not all of us use one. I don't think that if I'm late because the car broke down I should be punished. And if I show up an hour late because I don't care if I meet him or not, then the relationship needs a lot more work than a spanking would fix.

Care to clarify what you mean by discipline? And yes, you can have a relationship that doesn't include something you have zero interest in. Just be clear about it in discussions with future partners.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to errance)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: discipline - 9/30/2008 5:51:39 AM   
errance


Posts: 8
Joined: 9/28/2008
From: Canada
Status: offline 		If that's what you mean, and a future partner could help you in the areas you are weaker in while you help him in the areas he's weaker in, what's wrong with that?

There's nothing wrong with that :)

Thanks for responding :) I just need to clarify what's it's all about for me and getting it step-by-step.

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: discipline - 9/30/2008 5:57:45 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		You know, I don't honestly have a clue what "discipline" means in the bdsm context either.  As near as I can tell, it's some concept that is wrapped so tightly around punishment that the two might as well be identical.  I can tell you that while myself and my wife participate in a love-based authority transfer relationship.  We don't have much use for the words "discipline" and "punishment" either.  I just tell my wife what to do and then she tries to do it to the best of her ability.  I don't treat my wife like a child.  Quite the contrary, I treat her like an adult.  I tell her what to do then I expect it's going to get done.  If she were to disobey, I'd be more interested in knowing why since it would be so out of the blue than I would be figuring out how to punish her. 

(in reply to errance)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: discipline - 9/30/2008 6:19:00 AM   
chamberqueen


Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/25/2007
From: Kalamazoo, MI
Status: offline 		"Discipline" comes from the Greek word meaning "to teach".  A Dom is typically a guide, at least in the sense of teaching the sub what it takes to please them.  They may extend this further and want to be leaned on for vanilla problems.  Each relationship will be different, as will the discipline involved.  For some it may never include any pain, but perhaps a look or a small gesture.  For others it may include corporal punishment. 

If you think about a vanilla marriage, it is not uncommon for one partner to discipline the other.  It may be in subtle comments such as, "Don't you think you've had enough to drink?" or "I was embarrassed when you..." to large arguments.  A Dom who takes an avid interest in how their slave is progressing will often use disciplinary methods to help mold the person - in most cases for their own benefit.  I remember once insulting my looks to my Master, and He simply said "stop it".  Now when I have the tendency to be self deprecating I remember that simple phrase.  That little piece of discipline helped me to become a more well rounded person, to gain confidence in myself, and was not at all like a child being looked down upon by a parent figure. 

Some Doms enjoy giving punishment, and will set their subs up to fail so that they can carry it out.  You'll find that this is the minority and the subs often have a tacit agreement that they will go along with this.  When looking for a new Dom it is a good idea to find out how they feel about punishment - what form it might take, what it might be meted out for, etc. 


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RE: discipline - 9/30/2008 7:09:11 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		errnace, there are such things as bedroom submissives, who do what they're told in the bedroom and are equals outside of it.  Is that what you think you may be?

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to chamberqueen)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: discipline - 9/30/2008 7:29:46 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline 		This has been trotted out before but here goes...it depends on the two people involved.

Myself...I do include discipline as a way of "teaching" the submissive where I want the dynamic to go and where I want her to go within the dynamic and within her life.  I've heard that argument offered against any sort of discipline..."I am not a child"...but no one said you were.  The fact remains, as has been noted on many threads, that there comes those times when the submissive does not want to do something they have agreed to do or that they are careless, neglectful, whatever in their agreed-upon duties/chores/what-have-you.  Even the simple matter of sitting down and discussing it is a form of discipline:  We have a problem...the problem is this...what is going on...why is it going on...what reasonable measure(s) would you say it would take to bring you back to doing what you have agreed to do...here is what I intend to do to ensure that you are doing what you have agreed to do.

A dominance/submission dynamic in which one party has agreed to institute their will upon the dynamic and the submissive and does so...and in which one party has agreed to yield their will to another and obey but does not do so is a dysfunctional D/s dynamic because one partner is holding up their end and the other is not. 

(in reply to errance)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: discipline - 9/30/2008 8:51:55 AM   
sravaka


Posts: 314
Joined: 6/20/2008
Status: offline 		I see the term used in a number of divergent ways.  In no particular order:

1) referring to the dominant correcting errors or violations (via punishment or otherwise)
2) referring to a broader program instituted by the dominant to modify or channel behavior.  In some variations, this is principally an exercise in self-discipline on the part of the submissive.
3) referring to "punishment" administered by the dominant purely because he feels like it, with little real reference to behavior modification.

It often takes some questioning to figure out exactly what meaning is in play.

I find that my own view of discipline and its desirability varies enormously with the particular connection.  There are people for whom I can embrace discipline (mostly in the 2nd sense) almost without thinking, because I respect them and their judgment, know they have my best interests in mind as well as their own desire to control,  realize they have better/more effective methods of getting me from point A to point B than I can devise on my own.  And I don't necessarily have to cogitate my way through this checklist before wanting to get with the program.  At the other end of the spectrum are people whose attempts to discipline provoke an immediate "who the hell are you?" feeling.  And there are variations in between those extremes.  I'm not sure how to explain it more clearly, but it has less to do with what is wanted specifically than with the dynamic, or even a sort of chemistry.

--sravaka


_____________________________

Miseries hold me fixed, and I would gladly cut these roots to become a floating plant. I would yield myself up utterly, if the inviting stream could be relied upon. --Ono no Komachi

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: discipline - 9/30/2008 9:08:13 AM   
SrchngCpl73112


Posts: 47
Joined: 9/21/2008
Status: offline 		In our D/s relationship there isnt corporal punishment.  It all depends on the relationship and what has been communicated before going in.  There isnt really punishment but there is discipline.  It is done thru communication with us.  We look at punishment and discipline as 2 different things i guess.  To us a punishment is something thats a quick fix and may not totally solve the problem, discipline is long term and lasting.  I dont know if that makes sense but that is the way we look at it in our relationship.  Things are handled with communication.  Sometimes the communciation is, there is a problem we need to discuss, this is how i felt when, these are some of the ways we need to work on this problem.  Because of my nature that is all i need.  I dont need to be "punished" but there are times i need to be "disciplined".  I would feel that i was being treated like a child if i were being punished.  Everyone needs discipline at times though.  Whether its just at work for having to many tardies.  Maybe that is just the way I look at in my mind to help me to rationalize that im really being punished...lol  I dont know! 

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: discipline - 9/30/2008 9:19:47 AM   
WhiplashSmile2


Posts: 526
Joined: 6/11/2008
Status: offline 		Frankly, I much rather express to a submissive partner that "they let me down, or disapointed me compared to what?  Keeping silent about it, or waiting for a heated argument to occur. 

Personally what is wrong in expressing to another person period, that they disapointed you somehow?   Better then blowing up all pissed off about it.  People will offend or cause some infraction at some point in time.

As a matter of fact, even many submissives express respectfully their disapointment with their Dom partners.  

Expressing Disappointment in a respectful manner, informs the other person of some offense or infraction that occured.

If I were to express dispointment to somebody and they felt like I was treating them like a kid, well I would tend to think they have some issues they needed to work upon.

In terms of discipline, everybody should have it or can use it, even us Doms.  There's nothing wrong with self discipline or the discipline coming from another person.  At times we are blind to some of our greatest weaknesses, flaws and faults.

I expect some level of discipline in many people that surround my life.  The ability for people to get a grip on their own fucked up behaviors or be able to accept the fact that some of the things they do are fucked up and to adjust their behavior somewhat.

I just recently ended a friendship because of their lack of discipline, to control their anger issues, jealously and drinking problems.  I had expressed my disapointment and frustration in dealing with her way too many times.   She did not seem to care about how her actions were impacting upon me.  She did not give a rats ass that she was pushing my personal boundaries and space.  She was rude and disrepectful in the process.

I don't think you have a firm grasp on the whole discipline aspects.  The consequences without it in any relationship can cause for that relationship to end.  Discipline is something to have in day to day life.

Now being Disciplined is not always a pleasent experience.  It's part of life, for instance many people go before a Judge in some court of law and get disciplined for their fucked up actions.  This happens everyday. 

Any relationship you are in, you are subject to being disciplined by other person.  If you piss off or offend a friend.  They might ingore you for awhile.  They might tell you outright what you did to offend or let them down.

Some people in "the lifestyle" agree to making physical punishment as part of relationship.  In such as case, prepare to be bent over with a crop to your ever loving ass.  

Those without discipline in my opinion are spoiled rotten self centered brats who only care about themselves and don't want to assume or take any responsibility for their own actions.  Yes, I know this sounds harsh, but it's really not that far off base.

(in reply to errance)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: discipline - 9/30/2008 11:48:47 AM   
errance


Posts: 8
Joined: 9/28/2008
From: Canada
Status: offline 		leadership527 - i get what you mean, thanks for responding :)

chamberqueen - from what you're saying, i think i need more a mentor then a Dominant or a Master...someone to guide me... to show me my wrongs and goods. I know the ways, but alone i'll let myself drift. I need to stay in the right path. For myself, for others more like...

DarkSteven - i'm submissive in the bedroom, no doubt about it, in a relationship i dont need to submit, i am submitting already. It's in me. So i dont know about that. The Mentor thing comes to mind again. I'm sure i can be in a relationship with my Mentor :) but i have to be more careful.. anyway nvm

CreativeDominant - i like your way of seeing things. *A dominance/submission dynamic in which one party has agreed to institute their will upon the dynamic and the submissive and does so...and in which one party has agreed to yield their will to another and obey but does not do so is a dysfunctional D/s dynamic because one partner is holding up their end and the other is not.* depends on the dynamic, true. gotcha. :)

sravaka - chemistry, got it :)

SrchngCpl73112 - ok....you're making me think there thanks

WhiplashSmile2 - At times we are blind to some of our greatest weaknesses, flaws and faults. - gotcha.
I'm trying to discipline myself alone, but with another one to talk to about it, no judgement, who is willing to help me through it.... i cant talk about it with my friends or family, it would so... surprise, hurt them, dont get it. i feel so alone sometimes :(

thank you all. it has help me a bit. let's try to applicate that :)










(in reply to WhiplashSmile2)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: discipline - 9/30/2008 12:01:26 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		CD, I found your discussion when things aren't working to be fascinating. And one that is totally alien to us.

We never focus on getting things back on a pre-agreed to track. Our focus is always on why. What was happening, what's going on inside that is causing problems, and how to address those issues. And sometimes the previous track is found to not be one that is taking us where we want to go so we change it.

I suppose this points out the difference between those who are obedience oriented and those who are driven by emotional transparency.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to errance)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: discipline - 9/30/2008 12:28:44 PM   
Aslanemperor


Posts: 108
Joined: 4/17/2005
Status: offline 		Well, here's how I feel.  Discipline is part of the fun of the relationship.  I've had subs who disobeyed just to get me to spank them.  Also, at times, discipline adds structure, which is very attractive to most subs, and is one of the most common things that subs are searching for in a D/s relationship.
This is my oppinion, formed by my personal experiences in the lifestyle.

~Aslanemperor

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: discipline - 9/30/2008 2:27:58 PM   
VivaciousSub


Posts: 446
Joined: 9/7/2008
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aslanemperor

Well, here's how I feel.  Discipline is part of the fun of the relationship.  I've had subs who disobeyed just to get me to spank them.  Also, at times, discipline adds structure, which is very attractive to most subs, and is one of the most common things that subs are searching for in a D/s relationship.
This is my opinion, formed by my personal experiences in the lifestyle.

~Aslanemperor



Aslan, I can't speak for all subs here, or even most subs - I will say that you've hit the nail on the head for me, though. I absolutely adore having that structure and security within a relationship and it is one of the things I look for.

However, I'm not the type to manipulate - as that's how I see it - my Sir by purposely disobeying to get a spanking. In my opinion, that's topping from the bottom. I don't want to disobey - that's not what I'm there for. I'm there to please Him, as he sees fit. Luckily, we match on how we see the world, so I don't feel like I set myself up for failure, either.


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9.8m/s^2 + VivaciousSub + ground = ouchx10^9th

To yield readily--easily--to the persuasion of a friend is no merit.... To yield without conviction is no compliment to the understanding of either. ~ Pride and Prejudice

(in reply to Aslanemperor)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: discipline - 9/30/2008 4:46:58 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline 		 
I am quite capable of recognizing where there is a problem and have the self-discipline to work on it.  If it calls for a discussion then I ask for one; I see that as communication rather than a disciplinary session. 

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: discipline - 9/30/2008 4:48:59 PM   
sophia37


Posts: 1433
Joined: 2/7/2006
Status: offline 		In my relationship the discipline part is, Self discipline. Not the taming of the other. 

(in reply to errance)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: discipline - 9/30/2008 5:19:40 PM   
yourMissTress


Posts: 1665
Joined: 6/14/2005
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aslanemperor

Well, here's how I feel.  Discipline is part of the fun of the relationship.  I've had subs who disobeyed just to get me to spank them.  Also, at times, discipline adds structure, which is very attractive to most subs, and is one of the most common things that subs are searching for in a D/s relationship.
This is my oppinion, formed by my personal experiences in the lifestyle.

~Aslanemperor



I am of an opposing mindset to this opinion, as well as another stated above that discussed Dominants setting their subs up to fail just so they can punish or discipline them.  I need no "excuse" to spank, beat, or whatever it is I want to do.  A submissive disobeying me to manipulate me into doing what they want would find themselves in a predicament they didn't bargain for.  I detest punishment, to me, a situation that required punishment would mean that both my submissive and I had failed miserably in communicating our wants, desires, and expectations in and of the relationship.

I tend to be attracted to submissives who are intelligent, capable, and strong minded individuals.  They are usually type A personalities who are goal and service oriented.  Setting such a person up to fail can be devastating.  These types of people can be crushed emotionally just by knowing that they have disappointed their dominant.  "Why" and the ensuing explanation is usually more discipline than is ever required.


_____________________________

Tress


"If you have to tell people that you are a lady, you are not." My Grandmother


(in reply to Aslanemperor)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: discipline - 9/30/2008 5:46:11 PM   
silkncarol


Posts: 318
Status: offline 		As a submissive i like to know where my boundaries are and what is expected of me.  If i fall short or make mistakes along the way i would expect to be disciplined in some way....to know there are consquences for my behavior..both good and bad.   To me it's part of having focus on your partner......mine to be pleasing to Him, and His to guide, teach and help me become a better submissive and partner to Him. 

_____________________________

We attract hearts by the qualities we display. We retain them by the qualities we possess.

Shoes can change your life................. Cinderella

(in reply to yourMissTress)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: discipline - 9/30/2008 5:46:12 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

 I need no "excuse" to spank, beat, or whatever it is I want to do.  


 
I never understood the need to make up reasons or excuses. Be secure in the fact it is OKAY to enjoy it. 
Call it what it is: pain Play! 


_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to yourMissTress)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: discipline - 9/30/2008 7:34:56 PM   
subman1876


Posts: 3
Joined: 2/29/2008
Status: offline 		I agree.  From my  standpoint as a sub, just knowing I failed to please my Mistress is crushing.  I guess it's the type A personality that both drives me to need the submission because I'm always in charge the rest of my overachieving life and also makes me crave perfection in my submissive duties. 

(in reply to yourMissTress)
Profile   Post #: 20
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