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Negotiations Falter on Bailout Deal, how long will this... - 9/25/2008 9:05:04 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline 		As of tonight, negotiations falter on the bailout deal.
They seem to be at a serious impase.
Many of the Republicans appear to be pissed at John McCain.
The plot is thickening!


 Negotiations Falter on Bailout Deal - washingtonpost.com

< Message edited by MzMia -- 9/25/2008 9:07:44 PM >

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RE: Negotiations Falter on Bailout Deal, how long will ... - 9/25/2008 9:20:14 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Pissed at McCain and no love lost for a lame duck President...

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RE: Negotiations Falter on Bailout Deal, how long will ... - 9/25/2008 9:47:21 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		         Really interesting article, Mia.  I loved the quote from President Bush at the very end. 

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RE: Negotiations Falter on Bailout Deal, how long will ... - 9/25/2008 10:47:23 PM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline 		""We've not seen any way to getting majority [Republican] support," said Rep. Eric Cantor (Va.), a leading Republican vote counter and co-author of the alternative House GOP plan, which would also cut taxes on dividends and capital gains."

Also cut taxes on dividends and capital gains. Those cocksuckers. If that isn't a blatant ass-kissing of the rich, I don't know what is.

I have a better idea. Eliminate taxes on anyone who makes less than the median US income. 

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RE: Negotiations Falter on Bailout Deal, how long will ... - 9/25/2008 11:22:07 PM   
cyberdude611


Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

As of tonight, negotiations falter on the bailout deal.
They seem to be at a serious impase.
Many of the Republicans appear to be pissed at John McCain.
The plot is thickening!



Republicans are backing out because they say their e-mail and phone banks are being flooded with calls from constituants demanding they KILL this bill. Conservatives view this bill as gross government interference of the free market and a socialist power grab by the federal government.

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RE: Negotiations Falter on Bailout Deal, how long will ... - 9/25/2008 11:48:36 PM   
TheUtopian


Posts: 259
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

As of tonight, negotiations falter on the bailout deal.
They seem to be at a serious impase.
Many of the Republicans appear to be pissed at John McCain.
The plot is thickening!



Republicans are backing out because they say their e-mail and phone banks are being flooded with calls from constituants demanding they KILL this bill. Conservatives view this bill as gross government interference of the free market and a socialist power grab by the federal government.


Yeah.....and I'm one of them. I left voice mails with both Cantor's and the Bachus offices telling them they're doing a good job and further urging them to use every trick in the book to undermine Bush, Paulson and Shalom....


Cantor's Virginia number 540.825-8960
                DC number 202.225-2815

Bachus' Birmingham number 205 969-2296
                       DC number  202 225-4921


If you don't want to see the tax payers bail out these POS - I urge you to call these two congressman and tell them to kick Henery Paulson and George Bush in the balls, by undermining the bailout.





- R






< Message edited by TheUtopian -- 9/25/2008 11:50:26 PM >

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RE: Negotiations Falter on Bailout Deal, how long will ... - 9/26/2008 12:09:18 AM   
cyberdude611


Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline 		You can't completely avoid a crash here no matter what is passed. Eventually the Piper is going to come to collect his money.

McCain cant fix it and neither can Obama because there isnt anything to fix. You can't magically make this debt go away.

The loosening of the lending practices over the past 15 years is what has destroyed this economy. This obsession over the past several decades that we need to reach economic equality is going to bring all of us down if we keep on this socialist track of giant bailouts, socialist programs, out of control spending, and big government.
And Democrats and Republicans are equally responsible.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel or envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."
-Winston Churchill

< Message edited by cyberdude611 -- 9/26/2008 12:10:21 AM >

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RE: Negotiations Falter on Bailout Deal, how long will ... - 9/26/2008 12:22:15 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

You can't completely avoid a crash here no matter what is passed. Eventually the Piper is going to come to collect his money.

McCain cant fix it and neither can Obama because there isnt anything to fix. You can't magically make this debt go away.

The loosening of the lending practices over the past 15 years is what has destroyed this economy. This obsession over the past several decades that we need to reach economic equality is going to bring all of us down if we keep on this socialist track of giant bailouts, socialist programs, out of control spending, and big government.
And Democrats and Republicans are equally responsible.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel or envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."
-Winston Churchill


Nice bit of Newspeak cyberdude, this problem is a problem of capital that wouldn't have happened if social democratic policies had been pursued instead of policies of capitalist greed.

Oh, and Churchill was an aristocrat who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth, he knew nothing of poverty and misery and had not the experience to discuss it, especially since he was an incompetent financial minister.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/26/2008 12:25:27 AM >

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RE: Negotiations Falter on Bailout Deal, how long will ... - 9/26/2008 12:42:52 AM   
cyberdude611


Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline 		This has to do with an idealistic approach to economic equality without considering the ramifications. You had a lot of politicians make demands that the banks give out risky loans to risky barrowers. Why? Because they thought it was wrong to only give loans to the upper middle class and the rich.

What then happened is banks and Wall Street goons starting playing with funny numbers to get rich quick. Why the hell would you give a $300,000 loan to someone that makes $25,000 a year? Unless you overvalue the property in order to sell the mortgage to another lender. With so many creditors doing this it begins to inflate capital that really isnt there. And then loans are made on that inflated equity (HELOCs). Well you can only inflate a balloon so much before it bursts. That is what happened. So that inflated capital then disappeared and what remained was massive amounts of debt. Slowly one bank falls at a time while the big shots that made these loans keep their profits.

So now what are they doing? Asking Washington to keep their banks afloat. They want the tax payers to fix what they broke so they can do it again.

< Message edited by cyberdude611 -- 9/26/2008 12:43:15 AM >

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RE: Negotiations Falter on Bailout Deal, how long will ... - 9/26/2008 12:51:26 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

This has to do with an idealistic approach to economic equality without considering the ramifications. You had a lot of politicians make demands that the banks give out risky loans to risky barrowers. Why? Because they thought it was wrong to only give loans to the upper middle class and the rich.

What then happened is banks and Wall Street goons starting playing with funny numbers to get rich quick. Why the hell would you give a $300,000 loan to someone that makes $25,000 a year? Unless you overvalue the property in order to sell the mortgage to another lender. With so many creditors doing this it begins to inflate capital that really isnt there. And then loans are made on that inflated equity (HELOCs). Well you can only inflate a balloon so much before it bursts. That is what happened. So that inflated capital then disappeared and what remained was massive amounts of debt. Slowly one bank falls at a time while the big shots that made these loans keep their profits.

So now what are they doing? Asking Washington to keep their banks afloat. They want the tax payers to fix what they broke so they can do it again.


Cyberdude, the financial companies were misselling loans, in any other industry there would have been regulations, in any other industry such misselling would end up with a lot of people in prison. The Hedge funds were selling bad debt as AAA debt. This crisis has not happened because of a government policy but the lack of government regulation and the failure of the financial industry to police itself. 

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RE: Negotiations Falter on Bailout Deal, how long will ... - 9/26/2008 12:58:48 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

This has to do with an idealistic approach to economic equality without considering the ramifications. You had a lot of politicians make demands that the banks give out risky loans to risky barrowers. Why? Because they thought it was wrong to only give loans to the upper middle class and the rich.


This was not an idealistic approach to the economy, it is the problem of democratic elections being reduced to beauty contests where policies effectively buy votes.

The Republicans have been in power for the last eight years so one assumes they supported such policies and they are hardly idealistic or socialist. There friends were getting rich which is the truth of the matter.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611
So now what are they doing? Asking Washington to keep their banks afloat. They want the tax payers to fix what they broke so they can do it again.


Capitalism has always been rich man's socialism so what's new?

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RE: Negotiations Falter on Bailout Deal, how long will ... - 9/26/2008 1:07:49 AM   
cyberdude611


Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline 		Government policy opened the flood gates.

And people went nuts with it. I knew people back in 2003 and 2004 who were buying 3 or 4 hourses with as little as $40k a year income. And I would ask what the hell are you doing? Because I knew they couldnt afford that. And they said they were flipping the houses and making a profit. Well, people doing this got stuck when the bubble burst. Their profits quickly evaporated and they had to declare bankruptcy and the mortages went into foreclosure. So you see how this tripped the effect.
And there were scams out there. One of the big crazes was "condo-tels" were hotels were selling their units off to investors for huge amounts of money with promises of renovations and profit returns from leaseback programs. Then the company goes bankrupt and the investor is stuck with mortgages they can never get rid of. I know investors who lost hundreds of thousands of dollars in these kind of schemes. So you even had the wealthy ripping off the wealthy.

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RE: Negotiations Falter on Bailout Deal, how long will ... - 9/26/2008 1:16:42 AM   
cyberdude611


Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

This has to do with an idealistic approach to economic equality without considering the ramifications. You had a lot of politicians make demands that the banks give out risky loans to risky barrowers. Why? Because they thought it was wrong to only give loans to the upper middle class and the rich.


This was not an idealistic approach to the economy, it is the problem of democratic elections being reduced to beauty contests where policies effectively buy votes.



Then why did the Dems never sound the alarm? Because the Democrats were doing the same thing by filling spending bills with pork!

Did you not see my other post where I listed where these big shot Democrats in Washington were getting tons of kickbacks from these giant banks?

This is not a partisan thing. The whole congress is corrupt.

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RE: Negotiations Falter on Bailout Deal, how long will ... - 9/26/2008 1:19:47 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		The very idea that extending credit is a socialist policy which you implied in your original post is the most laughable thing you have said as anyone with a modicum of knowledge about social democratic economics would know that is the furthest thing from the truth of what socialist economics is about. What we have witnessed with government policies allowing credit to get out of hand is capitalist policies at work and the effort of government to spread capitalism to the poorest members of society. The idea of spreading capitalism down to the poorest level was a Reagan/Thatcherite idea which would lock the poorest people in society into the capitalist system. No matter what verbal acrobatics tyou use, this crisis is a purely capitalist crisis, created by capitalist for the sake of capitalists. The fact that the economy has gone pear shaped is the reason for trying to throw the blame onto ideas that have nothing to do with the crisis.

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RE: Negotiations Falter on Bailout Deal, how long will ... - 9/26/2008 1:21:30 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

This has to do with an idealistic approach to economic equality without considering the ramifications. You had a lot of politicians make demands that the banks give out risky loans to risky barrowers. Why? Because they thought it was wrong to only give loans to the upper middle class and the rich.


This was not an idealistic approach to the economy, it is the problem of democratic elections being reduced to beauty contests where policies effectively buy votes.



Then why did the Dems never sound the alarm? Because the Democrats were doing the same thing by filling spending bills with pork!

Did you not see my other post where I listed where these big shot Democrats in Washington were getting tons of kickbacks from these giant banks?

This is not a partisan thing. The whole congress is corrupt.


Short sighted politics and because the Democrats are capitalists and play the same game as the Republicans.

There is no alternative ideology to capitalism in America which means that capitalist policies don't get intellectually tested by proposed alternative policies.

Cyberdude, this crisis is making people question the nature of red blooded capitalism in Europe, in America, people like you are just trying to find excuses for it. Which means that nothing will be done in America to prevent something similar happening again.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/26/2008 1:32:15 AM >

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RE: Negotiations Falter on Bailout Deal, how long will ... - 9/26/2008 1:31:43 AM   
cyberdude611


Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

This has to do with an idealistic approach to economic equality without considering the ramifications. You had a lot of politicians make demands that the banks give out risky loans to risky barrowers. Why? Because they thought it was wrong to only give loans to the upper middle class and the rich.


This was not an idealistic approach to the economy, it is the problem of democratic elections being reduced to beauty contests where policies effectively buy votes.



Then why did the Dems never sound the alarm? Because the Democrats were doing the same thing by filling spending bills with pork!

Did you not see my other post where I listed where these big shot Democrats in Washington were getting tons of kickbacks from these giant banks?

This is not a partisan thing. The whole congress is corrupt.


Short sighted politics and because the Democrats are capitalists and play the same game as the Republicans


Too bad the vast majority of voters dont realize that.



quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The very idea that extending credit is a socialist policy which you implied in your original post is the most laughable thing you have said as anyone with a modicum of knowledge about social democratic economics would know that is the furthest thing from the truth of what socialist economics is about. What we have witnessed with government policies allowing credit to get out of hand is capitalist policies at work and the effort of government to spread capitalism to the poorest members of society. The idea of spreading capitalism down to the poorest level was a Reagan/Thatcherite idea which would lock the poorest people in society into the capitalist system. No matter what verbal acrobatics tyou use, this crisis is a purely capitalist crisis, created by capitalist for the sake of capitalists. The fact that the economy has gone pear shaped is the reason for trying to throw the blame onto ideas that have nothing to do with the crisis.


That's not true. Reagan believed that giving more money to the wealthy (through tax cuts) would trickle down to the poor in the form of jobs and salary rasises. Supply-side economics I believe is what he called it.

This, what has been going on for the past 15 or so years, is not Reaganomics by any stretch. This is some kind of messed up capitalism mixed with socialist ideals mixed with fraud and illegal activity. If Reagan was alive today, he'd be appalled at what the government has been doing.

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RE: Negotiations Falter on Bailout Deal, how long will ... - 9/26/2008 1:39:24 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

That's not true. Reagan believed that giving more money to the wealthy (through tax cuts) would trickle down to the poor in the form of jobs and salary rasises. Supply-side economics I believe is what he called it.


Yes, the misguided idea that the poor will get wealthier by making the rich wealthier.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611
This, what has been going on for the past 15 or so years, is not Reaganomics by any stretch. This is some kind of messed up capitalism mixed with socialist ideals mixed with fraud and illegal activity. If Reagan was alive today, he'd be appalled at what the government has been doing.


cyberdude, you have already declared your ignorance of socialist ideals and economics, there is nothing socialist in this crisis, mixed up or otherwise. It is the capitalists that keep telling everyone that capitalism will make them rich, largely to keep people in line while the rich get richer and that is the reason for spreading capital and that is the reason for this crisis. To bring socialism into the equation is nothing, as I have said before, is nothing more than engaging in Newspeak.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/26/2008 1:40:14 AM >

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RE: Negotiations Falter on Bailout Deal, how long will ... - 9/26/2008 1:49:30 AM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Government policy opened the flood gates.

And people went nuts with it. I knew people back in 2003 and 2004 who were buying 3 or 4 hourses with as little as $40k a year income. And I would ask what the hell are you doing? Because I knew they couldnt afford that. And they said they were flipping the houses and making a profit. Well, people doing this got stuck when the bubble burst. Their profits quickly evaporated and they had to declare bankruptcy and the mortages went into foreclosure. So you see how this tripped the effect.
And there were scams out there. One of the big crazes was "condo-tels" were hotels were selling their units off to investors for huge amounts of money with promises of renovations and profit returns from leaseback programs. Then the company goes bankrupt and the investor is stuck with mortgages they can never get rid of. I know investors who lost hundreds of thousands of dollars in these kind of schemes. So you even had the wealthy ripping off the wealthy.
2003 and 2004. The peak of No-doc and Lo-doc loans.
Lesse, who was Prez then? Oh yeah, the Bush Kid. Which party had the majority in Congress? Oh, yeah, the Repubs.

Therefore, ergo, and ipso facto, The commie lib Dems are to blame for everything from this new Great Depression to Mercury going retrograde.

Oh, but that can't be right. The NEW theory, distilled to its essence, is Black Folk, and Mexican Illegals, tricked otherwise rational bankers into abandoning the concept of relative risk, and decided that any loan was a good loan. I think they used Greenspan Voodoo Dolls. They all collectively, because of majik and voodoo, made all these bad loans, and now they aren't to blame. It's the young black famil;y making 40K a year, and who wanted desperately to get out of that goddamn apartment, who forced all these sensible conservative fiscally responsible old white Banker dudes to take off their suits and ties and do the Limbo on the beach in haiti.

I long for the day when people with brown skin aren't scapegoated for all the fuckups all these East Coast Ivy-League legacy racist fucks commit.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

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RE: Negotiations Falter on Bailout Deal, how long will ... - 9/26/2008 2:08:55 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

........ You had a lot of politicians make demands that the banks give out risky loans to risky barrowers. Why? Because they thought it was wrong to only give loans to the upper middle class and the rich.



Hi Cyberdude

I'm confused on this bit; could you please elaborate on how the demands of politicians to give risky loans to risky borrowers was translated into the banks etc meeting those demands?

I was under the impression that banks etc are not public bodies that have in any way social obligations or that are in any way subject to political control (aside from legal responsibilities), but are commercial operations with obligation only to their shareholders. My understanding therefore is that regardless of any noises off generated by politicians, the banks etc can only have acted according to their obligation to their shareholders to produce profits, within the legal framework applicable to their activities.

So if they made risky loans, my understanding is that they must have decided for themselves to do so, examined the risks involved and the legal framework to engage in the particular activity, (and subsequent activities), and deduced from their analysis that this was good business at the time, such that any responsibility must rest with them whilst the sole political responsibility can only lie in the legal framework within which the activities were carried out.

If there have been breaches of the legal framework then prosecutions must follow. If the banks etc have acted negligently, if there has been error, act or omission, then civil litigation must follow. If there have been corrupt practices to produce from politicians a legal framework such that such practices might arise then the electorate as well as the courts must take action.

As things stand I see none of the above taking place - which tells a tale all of its own as to who dare not allocate culpability for fear of being themselves implicated.

E

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RE: Negotiations Falter on Bailout Deal, how long will ... - 9/26/2008 5:01:43 AM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheUtopian

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

As of tonight, negotiations falter on the bailout deal.
They seem to be at a serious impase.
Many of the Republicans appear to be pissed at John McCain.
The plot is thickening!



Republicans are backing out because they say their e-mail and phone banks are being flooded with calls from constituants demanding they KILL this bill. Conservatives view this bill as gross government interference of the free market and a socialist power grab by the federal government.


Yeah.....and I'm one of them. I left voice mails with both Cantor's and the Bachus offices telling them they're doing a good job and further urging them to use every trick in the book to undermine Bush, Paulson and Shalom....


Cantor's Virginia number 540.825-8960
              DC number 202.225-2815

Bachus' Birmingham number 205 969-2296
                     DC number  202 225-4921


If you don't want to see the tax payers bail out these POS - I urge you to call these two congressman and tell them to kick Henery Paulson and George Bush in the balls, by undermining the bailout.


- R




Thank you so much for sharing this information.
I am calling in a few minutes.
Isn't it amazing the power Joe Citizen still has in this country?

< Message edited by MzMia -- 9/26/2008 5:03:44 AM >

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to TheUtopian)
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