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Reverse Robin Hood: Privatizing Gains and Socializing Risk - 9/23/2008 5:37:25 AM   
SugarMyChurro


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[N.B. This post is mainly a string of quotes from various sources that I have attempted to weave together into a narrative web of ideas. I wanted to engage this complex material with reputable sources to answer these three main questions: What exactly happened to the economy? How did it start? What do we do now, if anything?]

The claim is that we are faced with both a national and global financial crisis. Before we accept either assertion we need to dig into the history of recent events. Who intends to act upon this crisis and who is taking a "wait and see" approach? As you shall see, things are not what they seem and elsewhere many people seem substantially untroubled by what is taking place. Markets correct themselves. Some people win. Some people lose. We cannot save everyone. Maybe we shouldn't save anyone at all.

It starts with overweening greed and "globalization."

In the year 2000 the total amount of money available for financial transactions was the equivalent of a mere $36 trillion. Globalization and the resulting economic growth of markets doubled that amount of money so that by the year 2006 international investors were looking for ways to invest their now $70 trillion and still make a handsome profit. The problem was that there really wasn't $70 trillion worth of good investments to be had. Unsatisfied with a few paltry percentage points to be made on their money per annum with US Treasury Bonds, the investors wanted yields of 10-15%. 20% if they could get it. Now I don't care what anyone else tells you, but when the returns are that high there is risk and every investor knows that fact. But international investors wanted to be lied to and told that they realistically could be making that kind of return on their money. With that $70 trillion burning holes in pockets all over the world you just know that someone was going to step up and give those greedy bastards exactly what they wanted: a good swindling! Enter a new form of investment: the CDO, mortgage securities, etc. These various financial instruments are basically packaged up versions of bad mortgages, leveraged time and again, until they are made to look like good investments. But you've heard that old cliche: you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear. What they were doing was taking bad mortgages - desired by greedy and unscrupulous borrowers against the equity in their homes and brokered by greedy and unscrupulous lenders who were lying their asses off in order to cash out their commissions - and selling them off as packaged deals higher up the financial food chain. The claim was that while each mortgage might be bad individually, taken as a whole they would perform very well because the real estate bubble would simply never pop and just keep expanding ad infinitum. Uh huh, that's what they wanted to believe. Sure, they could have made much safer investments but you know how it goes: live fast, spawn, and die. That's the new ethic of the globalized world. But how could anyone get away with selling this toxic waste mortgage manure to someone with the claim that it was as solid an investment as US Treasury Bonds? Isn't that a lie on its face? Yes, it is- but the reason they got away with it is that they used inaccurate data models to support the logic of these doomed to fail investment instruments. You might be wondering how and why these toxic waste mortgages exist in the first place. The answer to that is predictable: overweening greed and deregulation. As it turns out, without step by step regulation and oversight people often succumb to greed and the temptations of fraud. Who knew?! [The above is my own brutal redaction of what you could hear and read at "This American Life."]
Source: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=355
Transcript (PDF): http://www.thisamericanlife.org/extras/radio/355_transcript.pdf

Every industry wants you to believe that they are owed a deregulated environment so that they can operate as they please. The claim is that the extravagantly wealthy upper class creates jobs because of the restaurants they patronize, the various services they use, the houses they buy, the cars they drive, the Manolo Blahnik shoes they buy their mistresses, the roses and jewelry they buy for their wives, and the housekeepers and gardeners that they employ. So, perhaps you want to support the bailout simply because the fallout will displace so many persons in such service and employ. But one's job is only a matter of chance. Everybody that works for Wall Street directly or indirectly would be working somewhere else if it didn't exist. Claiming that their jobs create other jobs may have some truth to it, but that's trickle down economics at its worst and ugliest - you don't get to keep your job after you screw things up, you lose your job! You don't get bailed out and you don't get a raise. Wall Street was significantly deregulated in the late 1990s but instead of creating a robust and healthy economy they have bled it almost dry. Personally, I don't think that such actions merit a reward.

D.C. and Wall Street people have been whining about how important and necessary the bailout is and how it has to happen right now to save the global economy. United States Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson had this to say:

"The credit markets are still very fragile right now and frozen...We need to deal with this and deal with it quickly." Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/21/paulson-resisting-democra_n_128035.html

Who is this guy Henry Merritt Paulson Jr? He served under John Ehrlichman in the Nixon administration. He's the former chief executive of Goldman Sachs. Could he just be there to enrich his buddies at Goldman Sachs and also his elite pals in China? Did you know that they were planning to enrich foreign banks and investors with the bailout?

"Paulson's Conflicts Of Interest Spark Concern"
"I think that Hank Paulson's corporate...record is very important. While he was a Goldman Sachs, the company was buying up a lot of Chinese banks in particular, and at the time of his nomination, there were very serious questions raised about the conflicts of interest involved, and where his priorities are, and who he really is looking after."...Moreover, as Bloomberg News reported: "Goldman Sachs Group Inc. and Morgan Stanley may be among the biggest beneficiaries of the $700 billion U.S. plan to buy assets from financial companies while many banks see limited aid..."
Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/22/paulsons-conflicts-of-int_n_128476.html

Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson confirmed the change on ABC's "This Week," telling George Stephanopoulos that coverage of foreign-based banks is "a distinction without a difference to the American people." Source: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13690.html

Hey, it makes a difference to me! I want to support a way of life similar to my own, not the way of life under the quasi-capitalistic, totalitarian regime of communist China! These gamblers at the tables on Wall Street need to be made to live with the result of their own foolish greed just like all the idiots that go Las Vegas every day. These guys gamble their fortunes away and now want to pass the hat around. And who will join the American people in this show of extravagant largesse to the sad investor class? No one is who:

But there was little appetite to mimic Paulson's scheme to buy up toxic mortgage-related debt from financial firms..."At the moment, I don't think Japan needs to launch a program similar to that of the United States," Japanese Vice Finance Minister Kazuyuki Sugimoto told reporters in Tokyo, echoing similar comments from France, Britain and Germany...The European Union also made it clear that it would not be joining a rescue package. EU Monetary Affairs Commissioner Joaquin Almunia told a conference in Slovakia that individual national governments would have to decide on their own..."It's up to them to consider whether they can follow this initiative," he said. Source: http://www.reuters.com/articlePrint?articleId=USLM62629820080922

We have to go this one alone. So, how much is it going to cost Joe and Jane Sixpack? Oh, you know, not too much...

With the cost of the proposed bailout effort equal to about $2,000 for every man, woman and child in the United States, Democrats began pushing for language in the rescue plan that would steers additional aid to homeowners struggling to stay in their homes and prevent foreclosures. Source: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics/AP/story/695587.html

Well, that's an interesting point. But don't these wizards of Wall Street really need the money quite badly?

In 2007, Wall Street's five biggest firms-- Bear Stearns, Goldman Sachs, Lehman Brothers, Merrill Lynch, and Morgan Stanley - paid a record $39 billion in bonuses to themselves...That's $10 billion more than the $29 billion loan taxpayers are making to J.P. Morgan to save Bear Stearns...Those 2007 bonuses were paid even though the shareholders in those firms last year collectively lost about $74 billion in stock declines --their worst year since 2002...If split equally among the approximately 186,000 workers at the former Big Five Houses, that bonus money means an average of $201,500 per person -- more than four times the $48,201 median household income in the U.S. last year. Source: http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/09/last-years-big.html

It almost seems as if you could take the bonuses handed out last year to these wizards of Wall Street and pay for parts of the bailout that way, right? Like gamblers at a fantasy high stakes table, these idiots want to gamble with the security of knowing they can't lose. Representative Barney Frank, Democrat of Massachusetts and chairman of the House Financial Services Committee, offered up the following comment on the bailout as from the perspective of one of the Wall Street wizards that put themselves into this mess:

"Heads I win, tails I break even." Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/21/business/21cong.html?pagewanted=print

Paulson's solution is simply to buy out the private losses with public funds. That is exactly the equivalent of reverse Robin Hood: privatizing gains and socializing risk! Here's more on his solution:

Paulson and the Federal Reserve are trying to replay the bailout approach used in the 1980s for the savings and loan crisis, but this situation is utterly different. The failed S&Ls held real assets--property, houses, shopping centers--that could be readily resold by the Resolution Trust Corporation at bargain prices. This crisis involves ethereal financial instruments of unknowable value--not just the notorious mortgage securities but various derivative contracts and other esoteric deals that may be virtually worthless...Despite what the pols in Washington think, the RTC bailout was also a Wall Street scandal. Many of the financial firms that had financed the S&L industry's reckless lending got to buy back the same properties for pennies from the RTC--profiting on the upside, then again on the downside. Guess who picked up the tab? I suspect Wall Street is envisioning a similar bonanza--the chance to harvest new profit from their own fraud and criminal irresponsibility. Source: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20081006/greider

What Paulson wants is a blank check and absolute authority.

"Dirty Secret Of The Bailout: Thirty-Two Words That None Dare Utter"
Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency. Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/22/dirty-secret-of-the-bailo_n_128294.html

The rescue plan would give sweeping powers to the U.S. Treasury to buy up toxic mortgage-related debt from financial groups, including U.S. subsidiaries of foreign banks. Source: http://www.reuters.com/articlePrint?articleId=USN1945959820080922

I just love that foreign banks bit. It really makes you wonder who our supposed representatives really represent. If they represented us wouldn't they be taking money from the investors and giving it to us taxpayers to compensate us for all the stuff they have been doing to gut the economy and offshore production? Instead, they would seem to want money from every man, woman and child to help feed the greed of Wall Street and international investors. Does that make any sense to anyone? Barney Frank again:

"I don't want the American taxpayer to get this bad debt and then the guy (whose company once held the bad loans) gets millions of dollars on his way out the door." Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/21/paulson-resisting-democra_n_128035.html

But...Paulson claims his plan should make the taxpayers whole, once the housing market recovers and the mortgage securities are resold. Source: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics/AP/story/695587.html

Resold to whom? Why in all the circles of hell would anyone want to buy up all of those toxic waste mortgages? Right, they wouldn't want to! But if you put a legislative gun to their heads via taxation you can make the American people pay for anything: private oil/resource wars, investment failures, whatever...

These fancy toxic waste mortgage investment instruments are often worth absolutely nothing. I am sure you've been reading about foreclosed homes that are being vandalized and looted of everything inside them. All the valuable appliances are gutted from the houses. Even the copper electrical wires are taken by thieves for their weight as scrap metal. Those houses either have to be torn down or substantially rebuilt! There's hardly any money left in them.

But Paulson doesn't know that. Is that right?

I don't believe that for one moment.

The whole thing is a fraud. At the prices we taxpayer's will pay it's going to be one big con with nearly zero chance that we will ever recovery anything from the transaction. Bush is arguing that the government isn't even going to really take managerial control of these decimated companies - just hand them money and hope for the best. Quick money, no oversight, and hope for the best! That's the keen financial insight of "acting" president Bush for you: garbage in, garbage out.

Chuck Collins at The Nation says we should "Tax the Speculators." Hey, maybe we can wring something good from this great financial evil after all. Here are Collins' main recomendations, but you should go read them in detail too:
1. Institute a Financial Transactions Tax.
2. Impose an Income Tax Surcharge Rate on Incomes Over $5 Million.
3. Eliminate the Tax Preference for Capital Gains.
4. Progressive Inheritance Taxes.
5. Eliminate Taxpayer Subsidies for Excessive CEO Pay.
6. Close Offshore Corporate Tax Havens.
Source: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20081006/collins

You might want to read this one too:
"10 Things You Should Know About Bush's Trillion Dollar Fleecing Plan"
Source: http://www.alternet.org/module/printversion/99876

But I wouldn't hold my breath hoping for those changes. If those things were to ever happen I would think it would have been on the heels of a bloody revolution...

It's all so fucking funny. Everything that "they" do matters so much. If they keep or lose a job it matters. If they profit or go bankrupt it matters so very much. Whole factories close and no one really does much for the workers except offer some early retirement and severance packages. Those jobs go offshore to India, Thailand, Malaysia, China, etc. No one cares. But if a Wall Street gambler loses big we have to bail him out.

Why is that?

This is a great example of the kind of protectionism that our supposedly "free markets" actually operate under. There is no free market anywhere on earth - just one class of people that are very well connected and the many other groups of people that are very not. There is no free enterprise. What we have is socialism of the investor class but not of our society as a whole. The select get protected and the rest of us get the shaft. We don't own the means the means of productions. We don't own anything except our extravagant debts - the debts we hold individually and as the citizens of this once great nation. But that was all before the looting began. Now we shall be forever in debt: taking the financial risks while the wizards of Wall Street make the money. They get bailed out while you can't even declare bankruptcy any longer - it just gets renegotiated over a longer period of time. The investor class gets off the hook while you remain on the hook. And so it goes...

They want a blank check, unlimited authority to unload their debts onto you, no regulation and no oversight.

I recommend that you call and email your elected officials and send them the clear message that this bailout stinks and that you won't stand for it. Even if you support the bailout (yikes!), take a stand on the many important oversight powers that such a deal should entail. Don't let them gloss over the details and hand Wall Street a blank check.

Find your elected officials:
http://www3.capwiz.com/c-span/home/

When was the last time you were handed a trillion dollars with no accountability?

-- This was originally published here:
http://thebloodofpatriotsandtyrants.blogspot.com/2008/09/reverse-robin-hood-privatizing-gains.html
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RE: Reverse Robin Hood: Privatizing Gains and Socializi... - 9/23/2008 7:54:56 AM   
pahunkboy


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Yes  , but it was a computer error

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RE: Reverse Robin Hood: Privatizing Gains and Socializi... - 9/23/2008 8:59:18 AM   
cpK69


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Thank you for your efforts in supplying, and help in translating, this information.
 
Nice to see you posting.
 
Kim

< Message edited by cpK69 -- 9/23/2008 9:17:44 AM >

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RE: Reverse Robin Hood: Privatizing Gains and Socializi... - 9/23/2008 9:04:25 AM   
kittinSol


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Ditto.

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RE: Reverse Robin Hood: Privatizing Gains and Socializi... - 9/23/2008 10:13:35 AM   
Termyn8or


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Great post Sugster. I'll have you know it cost me money to read it. Couple of suggestions, one, your comments should be somehow distinguished, like by italic or bold text, depends on your mood. The only other thing would be to condense it for mass consumption. Don't get me wrong, I write long posts, of that there is no doubt.

However condensing it enough to not outstrip people's attention span would be good, and at that point I would send it to everyone I know. I did read the whole post, I did not skim it, but you can't expect everyone to do it. The reason I mention this is because I think you brought up some good points, assembled the post very well and I agree.

So on to the actual topic, which I think quite important. I have known for a long time how banks operate. For decades with the fractional banking system they have been doing quite well. For a long time, any US banking entity was required to keep 3% capitalisation. What that meant was they would have to have $3K in deposits to lend out $100K. I don't know what the requirement is now, or if such a requirement even exists today.

When we bought this house, we wanted a solid bank, one unlikely to sell the mortgage and engage in the deadly game, at least not as much. Third Federal in Cleveland maintained 10% capitalisation, a bit over three times the requirement. All the accounts would be there except for one problem, they were not open Saturday.

So they take your $3K and gamble with it. As long as they show real assets on the books, everything is legal. It could be penny stocks, it doesn't matter. So indeed it is, heads I win tails I break even.

Let's move on to the fantastic protection you get when you see the sign "All deposits insured by the FDIC (or FSLIC, whatever)". Insured up to $100,000 right. What if you have more ? Well many might think OK, just split up the money into a bunch of hundred grand accounts. Doesn't work that way, the liability limit is applied to each depositor, not each account. It doesn't matter if you had thirty billion spread across the country, you get one check only from the FDIC for a hundred grand.

Really, it's not hard to figure out who is working for whom.

I have already said, and maintain that they should let these institutions go down. What would happen is that with the lack of loan guarantors the housing market would stabilize. With loans, not necessarily higher interest, but harder qualification would reduce the pool of potential buyers to those who really can afford it. Values would increase gradually as the glut disappears and population grows. But without the stimulus of the free net to fall into, banks would scrutinize possible applicants the right way, as they would have a vested interest in seeing the term consumated normally.

The windfall ? Well I got a house that was twenty grand in 1989, even today I could sell it for several times the price. As the recipient of such a windfall, I still don't think it's right. Of course the place needed work, alright, but that is still a windfall, and this indiscretionary lending made it so. So I could make some money selling out, that doesn't make it right.

While I have the right to opine about what they should do and all that, I believe it is wrong to slant my opinion based on my personal affairs. Doing that is the root cause of most of the problems we have in the world. People operating in their own best interest when they are paid, and sometimes sworn to operate in our best interest.

Let's say what I say happens. My house is never going to be worth a hundred grand again. That is fair if I can get a decent new car for six grand, a loaf of bread for less than a buck, a gallon of gas for about a buck. Then it's fair, I will accept fair.

I have to go now, more later maybe.

T

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RE: Reverse Robin Hood: Privatizing Gains and Socializi... - 9/23/2008 1:20:30 PM   
SugarMyChurro


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Termyn8or:

All good points. And yeah, it could be shorter. What can one do though - either someone is interested or they are not. If someone really didn't know anything about the "crisis" under discussion they'd easily spend a day or two unraveling the thread of it. The above is my contribution at cutting down the necessary time one has to put into it.

Citizenship isn't easy. It takes real work. I still have some issues I have to research for the next election. That's the job of being a member of this country.

Anyway, anything is better than watching TV.

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RE: Reverse Robin Hood: Privatizing Gains and Socializi... - 9/23/2008 1:44:33 PM   
Vendaval


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What's up?  Good to have you back posting, SugarMyChurro. 

Edited to add, could you please put your own comments in a different font and color?  That would make reading such a long post much easier.  Thanks,  Vendaval

< Message edited by Vendaval -- 9/23/2008 1:46:58 PM >


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RE: Reverse Robin Hood: Privatizing Gains and Socializi... - 9/23/2008 1:58:51 PM   
pahunkboy


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needed  work.

buyers dont  entirely realize what that means.  in my case- it means i can not sell for what I paid.   not that every penny must be recovered-- but a house in complete disrepair vs one that is in tack are two different things.

at the same time- a buyer wont like the paint job- the you name it- and due to some horrible defect like worn out carpeting the place is expected to be had at firesale price.

im frustrated because I started painting and the new formula is crap.  and the family that might have bought it are complaining .... and NO I wont rent a place with hardwood floors to  circus. 

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RE: Reverse Robin Hood: Privatizing Gains and Socializi... - 9/23/2008 2:19:31 PM   
Politesub53


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Nice OP Sugar.

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RE: Reverse Robin Hood: Privatizing Gains and Socializi... - 9/23/2008 2:29:35 PM   
popeye1250


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Hey Churro, nice to see you again.
Yes, any *financial* markets need Regulation!
The Airline industry too.
Look at how smoothly the Airlines ran back in the 60's and 70's and it was a pleasure to fly back then too!
There has to be a "Sea Change" in those financial markets!
We simply cannot have "business as usual."
And if the government bails them out they need to fire thousands of people at the top of the ladder to bring back "accountability."
Like "free trade" we tried "Deregulation" and it obviously doesn't work!

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RE: Reverse Robin Hood: Privatizing Gains and Socializi... - 9/23/2008 3:09:26 PM   
Vendaval


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Deregulation + NAFTA + GATT = tax payers loose

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"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
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RE: Reverse Robin Hood: Privatizing Gains and Socializi... - 9/24/2008 12:36:59 AM   
SugarMyChurro


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Politesub53 provided a link elsewhere that led me to this one making the same point:

-----

Paulson eyes rescue plan backing
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7631500.stm

BBC Business Editor Robert Peston said the US Treasury Secretary's proposal to buy bad mortgage debts from banks represented "the mother of all bail-outs".

He said that during the hearing Fed chairman Mr Bernanke disclosed that the Treasury would attempt to buy these debts from banks at close to their "hold-to-maturity" value, not the market value.

"In practice, it means banks who sell their debts to the Treasury would receive cash equivalent to something like twice the value in their books of these poisonous assets," our correspondent said.

"In other words they would book a profit from selling to taxpayers.

-----

You have to admire the sheer chutzpah necessary to make these kinds of deals in the light of day. I don't mean to be vulgar but it's rather as if a perfect stranger walked up to you on the street at noon one day and politely said, "I'm going to anally rape you without lube." And then smiled broadly so that you would know he was serious.

I also have a prior update on this fiasco at my blog (aka online journal):
http://thebloodofpatriotsandtyrants.blogspot.com/

< Message edited by SugarMyChurro -- 9/24/2008 12:37:35 AM >

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RE: Reverse Robin Hood: Privatizing Gains and Socializi... - 9/24/2008 12:48:47 AM   
TheUtopian


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quote:

What's up?  Good to have you back posting, SugarMyChurro. 


Ditto - No time for comments on this round....just a low-five slapn' welcome back to one of my all-time favorite collarme posters.





- R


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RE: Reverse Robin Hood: Privatizing Gains and Socializi... - 9/24/2008 8:21:27 AM   
SugarMyChurro


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I updated my blog with a few more bits, here's today's:

Crisis? What Crisis?
Journalists, start your skepticism.
by David Cay Johnston, Poyntor Forum
http://poynter.org/forum/view_post.asp?id=13611

Ask this question -- are the credit markets really about to seize up?

If they are then lots of business owners should be eager to tell how their bank is calling their 90-day revolving loans, rejecting new loans and demanding more cash on deposit. I called businessmen I know yesterday and not one of them reported such problems. Indeed, Citibank offered yesterday to lend me tens of thousands of dollars on my signature at 2.99 percent, well below the nearly 5 percent inflation rate. That offer came after I said no last week to a 4.99 percent loan.

If the problem is toxic mortgages then how come they are still being offered all over the Internet? On the main page AOL generates for me there is an ad for a 1.9% loan (which means you pay that interest rate and the rest of the interest is added to your balance due.) Why oh why or why would taxpayers be bailing out banks that are continuing to sell these toxic loans?

How does the proposal help Joe and Mary Sixpack who can afford their current monthly payment, but not the increased interest rate that has been or soon will take effect? Every day bankers work out loans with customers -- so why are taxpayers being asked to act when banks are largely on strike, refusing to negotiate revised deals with many loan customers?

How about interviewing small landlords who were drawn into these toxic loans. Are banks negotiating with them? If not it means more foreclosures and renters who had nothing to do with this being evicted. Ask why banks are refusing (landlords I spoke to said they are) to negotiate with small landlords.

What steps are being taken to take back bonuses, fees and other compensation from the folks who got rich selling toxic mortgages and illiquid investments that Secretary Paulsen claims are threatening the whole system.

...

Why have both Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley made clear that they want IN on this deal? Get skeptical and ask the basic questions -- who benefits, how much and what makes this plan so attractive that Goldman and MS want to participate? Ditto for GE. That they are others want to be included should prompt a great deal of skeptical questioning.

-----

Comment:

Yes, and just today it seems that Warren Buffett wants to grab some cash with both hands too. Berkshire Hathaway just bought $5 billion of preferred shares from Goldman Sachs with the further option to buy another $5 billion of common stock.

If I had the means to get to the table with that kind of money behind me I would feast long and deep on the delicious giveaway D.C. is preparing for Wall Street. It really is just like Las Vegas. After a hard day's gambling and almost losing your shirt you can still make it the prime rib dinners available all over town.

Greed. It's what's for dinner!

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RE: Reverse Robin Hood: Privatizing Gains and Socializi... - 9/24/2008 10:07:24 AM   
cloudboy


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Don't worry, McCain's new round of tax cuts and further deregulation will get everything back on track. Palin is spear-heading the initiative.

Nothing bad ever happens with tax cuts and deregulation.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 9/24/2008 10:08:12 AM >

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RE: Reverse Robin Hood: Privatizing Gains and Socializi... - 9/24/2008 10:10:27 AM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Deregulation + NAFTA + GATT = tax payers loose


Ven, I'd love to see someone ask Clinton where all those millions of "high-paying manufacturing jobs" are that he promised us if "Nafta" were passed.
"C'mon Bill, you were lieing again, wearn't ya?"
"That Bill was passed for big companies and not "the consumers", right?"
Why is government always "worried" about "the consumer" anyway?
You'd think it was their "job" to ensure that we had plenty of cheap imported goods to buy or something.
Whenever I hear anyone in the govt. mention "the consumer" I know they're in bed with big business.
My life is in no way "better" because I can buy cheap, imported goods from China and other countries.


< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 9/24/2008 10:14:26 AM >


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(in reply to Vendaval)
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